Conflicting Information

admin

So I have been doing a lot of reading because the shop I teach at is updating the handouts for  the welding classes. As I came across the TIG welding handout, I read something that I feel is NOT the proper procedure and I wanted to get your guys input on this. Now, I have done some research on the web regarding this question and even there I have found conflicting advice. Here is the issue... The handbook states that after dipping filler rod in the weld puddle you should pull the weld rod out of the shielding gas envelope about 1/4" from the puddle. Now from what I recall from my schooling, if you remove the filler rod from the gas envelope, you run the risk of contaminating the tip of the filler rod and as a result, you contaminate the weld puddle. This to me seems pretty straight forward but when I did a search online, I found that some seem to think that it is perfectly alright to move the filler rod out of the gas envelope, while others believe that it is important to leave the filler rod in.  Personally, like I mentioned before, I believe that it IS important to leave the rod in the weld puddle but I wanted to get your guys opinion on the matter. Again, I am pretty sure that the handout is providing incorrect information but I want to be 100% sure before I ask them to re-write the thing. Thanks in advance... any advice is greatly appreciatedBEZLast edited by BEZ66; 05-01-2013 at 02:16 PM.
Reply:I agree with what your understating is. I also can agree that pulling the filler out 1/4" to move the torch forward and dip again works all within the gas envelope.  Perhaps the new documentation needs to be reviewed with its source for correction. Indeed filler metal pulled from gas will oxidize the tip and contaminate the weld.
Reply:Originally Posted by n0ctrnlr3dI also can agree that pulling the filler out 1/4" to move the torch forward and dip again works all within the gas envelope.
Reply:I would also agree the filler should stay within the envelope.To me 1/4" of an inch from the puddle will still be within the gas envelope(with some exceptions I am sure).
Reply:I'm guessing typo that meant to read "do not let rod leave gas envelope."
Reply:I never had these "Problems" even though I can take a piece of filler..Send it around my back..Dip..And do it again without any ill effects.Did it at one of my classes to prove a point and nothing got contaminated...Ever do a rollcage on your back/side?It's IMPOSSIBLE to keep the filler in the gas "Envelope" at all times so what do you think?I think it's a old wives tale.That's MY estimation and I am sticking to it....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:"The filler rod is usually held at about a 15 ̊ angle to the surface of the work and slowly fed into the molten pool. Or it can be dipped in and withdrawn from the weld pool in a repetitive manner to control the amount of filler rod added. During welding, the hot end of the filler rod must not be removed from the protection of the inert gas shield. When the arc is turned off, the postflow of shielding gas should not only shield the solidifying weld pool but the electrode and the hot end of the filler rod."http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...Book_Chpt8.pdfSince you are teaching a class might as well follow along with what Miller recommends.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1"The filler rod is usually held at about a 15 ̊ angle to the surface of the work and slowly fed into the molten pool. Or it can be dipped in and withdrawn from the weld pool in a repetitive manner to control the amount of filler rod added. During welding, the hot end of the filler rod must not be removed from the protection of the inert gas shield. When the arc is turned off, the postflow of shielding gas should not only shield the solidifying weld pool but the electrode and the hot end of the filler rod."http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...Book_Chpt8.pdfSince you are teaching a class might as well follow along with what Miller recommends.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterI see you never did a rollcage with tig either...I still think it's a big pile of crap.I can weld all day with it in or out of the gas.It don't make one snot of difference.Books can be fact or fiction.I will prove it if I must....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1I doubt the new students will be doing roll cages.
Reply:Maybe i'm wrong but wouldn't that rule pertain more toward aluminum than steel or stainlessBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Maybe i'm wrong but wouldn't that rule pertain more toward aluminum than steel or stainless
Reply:I agree with Zap and call poopy on that. My machine at home has no post flow adjustment and shuts off after a few seconds so almost immediately after welding I always cup the area with my left hand in front of the torch to keep as much gas there as possible in the short time till it shuts off. Nothing is ever contaminated on restarts, never!I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterNo you are correct!With aluminum........You can't leave the filler anywhere near the torch between dips or it becomes one big dip.If you know what I mean.....zap!
Reply:Honestly, when I have taught Alum TIG, I pushed the electode back flush with the cup.  That way they will keep the rod close without contamination. This way the electrode rarely gets contaminated.  Once they get better, or weld a corner, they start extending it.  By then they should have enough control to keep the rod away from the electrode but close to the puddle.  With all that being said, I taught myself, and have been told I do it wrong by many good welders! I  get succesful results, so it works for me.     If the electrode stuck out, I would go through miles of them with new guys.  They keep the filler close without risking contamination until they are profecient enough to move on.
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11Maybe i'm wrong but wouldn't that rule pertain more toward aluminum than steel or stainless
Reply:Wawaweewa... I didn't expect a question like this to cause such a fracas. After reading all the comments from Zap, Broccoli, Killdozerd and the rest, I think I will still advise them to change the wording in the handout to say that the filler rod should stay in the gas envelope. Although you guys mentioned that in certain situations it would be impossible to keep the rod in the gas envelope and some say it is misnomer, I think given the fact that most of the students that come here have ZERO experience welding, I think it would be best to use the K.I.S.S. method and have them leave the rod in the gas.  Really appreciate all the advice... Cheers!!
Reply:Originally Posted by BEZ66Wawaweewa... I didn't expect a question like this to cause such a fracas. After reading all the comments from Zap, Broccoli, Killdozerd and the rest, I think I will still advise them to change the wording in the handout to say that the filler rod should stay in the gas envelope. Although you guys mentioned that in certain situations it would be impossible to keep the rod in the gas envelope and some say it is misnomer, I think given the fact that most of the students that come here have ZERO experience welding, I think it would be best to use the K.I.S.S. method and have them leave the rod in the gas.  Really appreciate all the advice... Cheers!!
Reply:Originally Posted by BEZ66Wawaweewa... I didn't expect a question like this to cause such a fracas. After reading all the comments from Zap, Broccoli, Killdozerd and the rest, I think I will still advise them to change the wording in the handout to say that the filler rod should stay in the gas envelope. Although you guys mentioned that in certain situations it would be impossible to keep the rod in the gas envelope and some say it is misnomer, I think given the fact that most of the students that come here have ZERO experience welding, I think it would be best to use the K.I.S.S. method and have them leave the rod in the gas.  Really appreciate all the advice... Cheers!!
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardThe surface area of the end of a 3/32" dia. filler rod is what .02% of an inch? The area heated enough to cause it to become contaminated is smaller yet? This is a non issue. You are getting all worked up over a minuscule POSSIBLE amount of contamination that will be floated to the surface and brushed away. But hay what ever floats your boat.
Reply:Sadly, I've seen guys welding titanium go through all of the trouble of making sure their back purge is good, everything is super duper clean, and then they jab a rainbow-tipped piece of filler into their puddle. Doh!
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI would not call it a non-issue, as I would call it a minimal issue for most metals.Still the handout is wrong. Titanium anyone?
Reply:This definitely applies more to stainless and titanium.  Pull your molten filler out and reintroduce to your puddle and you will get contamination. Not as big a deal on carbon and 4130 that a roll cage is made of. Some guys wonder how come there stainless never gets pretty like the guy next to them and this is one of the biggest culprits. Now a stainless weld contaminated in this fashion can and most likely will pass a x-ray but it will be dull and dirty gray.
Reply:So does this mean that you can't use a piece of filler that has previously been used? It is out of the envelope... I agree with Zap, non issue..
Reply:Originally Posted by rnrfabSo does this mean that you can't use a piece of filler that has previously been used? It is out of the envelope... I agree with Zap, non issue..As far as dirty rods, I think you have more to fear from oily or greasy gloves. I have seen all too many weldors clean their rods and weld with gloves they handled a greasy transmission housing from the day before. And if you crust over the end of your rod, clip the end off, whether it be Alum, SS, Mag, or Ti.   Originally Posted by BEZ66I guess I wasn't clear enough... after the handout recommends that you move the filler rod 1/4" from the puddle, it says "do not leave rod in gas envelope"That being said, I agree that you can move the rod about a 1/4" away from puddle and still keep the rod in the gas envelope, so I am starting to think that it was an honest mistake by whoever wrote the handout. I think they intended to say "do not let rod leave the gas envelope"I will advise to change accordingly... thanks n0ct!!