NON-symmetrical waveform. Benefits?

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So I know of two machines that can do this, but have never read or heard of anyone using such a feature. What would the benefit of it be? What would you use it for in a real world application?Discuss.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:So what kind of waveform is it that it is non-symmetrical?  Sawtooth ? 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:It's whatever you set it at. Say 100 amps, you can have 100 on the cleaning (positive side) and 80 on the penetration side. Or the other way.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:@ Gambie - "For example, when welding a thick piece of aluminum, the operator can put 250 amps of EN into the work and only 60 amps of EP into the tungsten. This provides faster travel speeds, faster feed of filler rods, deeper penetration, and the potential to eliminate pre-heating. Some companies cut production time by up to two-thirds using this technology." from http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...trols-inverter.Also note the 'Waveforms' para. in the link."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Oh I thought you were talking about something more advanced.  What you're talking about is known as "independent amperage-amplitude control". 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:I think he is talking about AC waveshape. The Miller Dynasty series has squarewave, softsquarewave, triwave(a variation of sinewave), and sinewave. Personally I only use soft-square, and triwave on mine. Yes, they do add versatility to AC. For instance I use soft-square for heavy alum, and triwave for sodacans. You can to without it and if your work is not too thin or thick, standard square or sinewave is fine.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Its just balance - commonly used on aluminum.Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Originally Posted by Jon KIts just balance - commonly used on aluminum.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleI know what balance is, and this isn't it.
Reply:balance is just the amount of time the waveform spends on each cycle. kind of an unbalanced wave but not what he's asking about.I could see a benefit if welding thin aluminum that might not be very clean, or has a thicker than normal oxide layer. You might have more amperage on the cleaning side of the wave and less on the welding. I think this might work better in an automated setup where feed and pace are not controlled by the person welding. In a normal situation you would just change the balance and adjust amperage/speed manually.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleSo I know of two machines that can do this, but have never read or heard of anyone using such a feature. What would the benefit of it be? What would you use it for in a real world application?Discuss.
Reply:You can think of the different wave shapes sort of like different sized and different shaped paint brushes for different purposes. For instance the triangular waveform is best for very high penetration but with low average heat at the same time. Here is Miller's explanation:http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...lding-Birdsall
Reply:Originally Posted by davido30093You can think of the different wave shapes sort of like different sized and different shaped paint brushes for different purposes. For instance the triangular waveform is best for very high penetration but with low average heat at the same time. Here is Miller's explanation:
Reply:Well, if you don't understand that answer, then I guess that I didn't/don't understand your question.
Reply:Guys, he's talking about independently adjusting the amperage on each portion of the AC cycle (EP & EN).  He explains it in Post #3.  He just chose the wrong terminology to mention it (because unfortunately there are many kinds of symmetry). 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:Oscar has it right. The only machines I know of are dynasty 350 (I think) and 700 and the HTP 221.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:There are a few good videos on YouTube that Miller put out featuring Chris Razor. He talks about some different applications and adjusts the EN and EP amperage independently to achieve different results.
Reply:Lincoln's early  squarewave tig  machines varied positive and negitve amperage to balance cleaning and penetration.Last edited by ironrail; 04-29-2013 at 09:38 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarGuys, he's talking about independently adjusting the amperage on each portion of the AC cycle (EP & EN).  He explains it in Post #3.  He just chose the wrong terminology to mention it (because unfortunately there are many kinds of symmetry).
Reply:The feature you are talking about was possible on the miller aerowave welders. It is also possible on some of the higher up dynasty welders from miller. John Marcella used aerowaves and now dynasties. Adjusting the currents in the negative and positive polarity allow you to fine tune the cleaning and penetration action. It can drastically increase the aesthetic of the welds and allow you to get much more current delivery with the same size electrode.
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleOscar has it right. The only machines I know of are dynasty 350 (I think) and 700 and the HTP 221.
Reply:Yep, but haven't had time to really play with it. But now school is over; I should have some free time. Now just need scrap aluminum. I'm also just a hobbyist and not a pro, so I may not notice what someone that has been welding for 20 years notices.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Sounds like a good way to add some knobs to the machine – and a few grand to the price – to me.I know a guy who uses nothing but sinewave and his welds look great.
Reply:Originally Posted by KelvinSounds like a good way to add some knobs to the machine – and a few grand to the price – to me.I know a guy who uses nothing but sinewave and his welds look great.
Reply:I have to disagree. Balance has to to with the portion of the cycle spent on positive vs. negative current. This is why it's expressed as a percentage. A symmetrical waveform has a 50/50 positive/negative.This isn't the independent amplitude adjustment I've seen on a few machines. That's an extra parametric adjustment that's independent of AC balance. I think the HTP may be one such machine that can do this.The idea of AC balance control, as mentioned, is that under different conditions, it's better to have more cleaning action at the expense of putting more heat into the tungsten. The opposite side of the cycle puts more heat into the work piece, less heat into the tungsten, and has less cleaning action. This would normally be at equal amplitudes on both positive and negagtive portions. Being able to then set independent amplitude allows you to further fine tune the process by lowering the current for the cleaning part of the cycle so that you don't over heat the tungsten, while having a higher current for the portion that puts heat into the workpiece.PapaLincoln Idealarc 250 (circa 1962)Lincoln Weldpak 155 w/Mig KitLincoln Squarewave TIG 175Must have not read the whole thread because we already verified what it is Gamble was talking about.  He was referring to independent amperage amplitude adjustment. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:I played with it last night just a little. Seems to give you a more fine tuned control of the balance feature. It's pretty cool actually! Not sure what real world application it would be good in though. Perhaps B_C or DSW can chime in.Torchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Did you watch the Chris Razor videos?
Reply:Originally Posted by OscarMust have not read the whole thread because we already verified what it is Gamble was talking about.  He was referring to independent amperage amplitude adjustment.
Reply:I too would like to see the differences in the independent amplitude adjustment in person---but its a huge $$$ gap from a tig with basic pulse/ ac-dc/balance to a tig like the Invertig, even though it's in a class of its own at it's price range and features. 1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig! HTP Invertig 400HTP Invertig 221HTP ProPulse 300HTP ProPulse 200 x2HTP ProPulse 220MTSHTP Inverarc 200TLP HTP Microcut 875SC
Reply:I am sure every type of feature has it's place. But do you realize how many high profile projects have been done with just basic TIG? Nuclear, NASA, whatever? I think advancements are great. But do we need ALL of them? I don't know. I don't do that type of welding. I can't answer my own question.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:Originally Posted by Joker11I am sure every type of feature has it's place. But do you realize how many high profile projects have been done with just basic TIG? Nuclear, NASA, whatever? I think advancements are great. But do we need ALL of them? I don't know. I don't do that type of welding. I can't answer my own question.
Reply:Shovelon... the aerowave seems to be a pretty nice machine.  Can I deduce from the low current draw and from the waveform that it was an inverter controlled machine?  Was that machine replaced by the Dynasty 300 and then the Dynasty 350?
Reply:Originally Posted by zipzit Can I deduce from the low current draw and from the waveform that it was an inverter controlled machine?
Reply:Originally Posted by zipzitShovelon... the aerowave seems to be a pretty nice machine.  Can I deduce from the low current draw and from the waveform that it was an inverter controlled machine?  Was that machine replaced by the Dynasty 300 and then the Dynasty 350?
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonActually it was those industries that demanded the advancements. I believe the AeroWave was developed jointly with Boeing.See page 4 for a nice diagram of AC waveshape enhancements.http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD6-0.pdf