Problem with new tig on aluminum

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HelloFirst of all, i'm very sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, but my search seemed to fail me, i couldn't find something relevant. To the point then. I've decided to take a chance, and got myself a Giant tig welder. It's a non-pulse AC/DC model, with foot pedal (WSE-200). I should point out that this is my first tig. My first tries on stainless were very promising, and since i got the hang of it, they looked decent enough.But i can't seem to weld aluminum, no matter how hard i try. I've tried any possible combination that i could think of. The machine on AC mode, any amps, any ammount of gas, ceriated or thoriated electrodes (both 1/16 and 3/32, 1/16 ball up almost instantly) pointed, shallow angle or square ended, preheat or not and the result is the same. When the arc starts it's really sparky and very vague, almost non existent (as opposed to steel, where the arc body is very distinct) but i can't form a puddle whatever i do. Base metal (16ga aluminum tube) seems to simply give up due to heat and eventually blows through, but no puddle.Here's a pic of a couple of tries. No puddle, no beads, no nothing.What am i doing wrong? Is it possible that the machine is faulty?ThanksSteve
Reply:have you switched polarity?tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Yes, i've chosen the AC setting on the AC/DC button.
Reply:on some welders you also have to swap the torch and work lead.  check your manualtackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Not the case i'm afraid, it has a screw-type negative with the argon hose built in.http://www.jubaweld.com/manage/eWebE...ile/WSE200.jpg
Reply:The molten puddle on aluminum can be difficult to see, particularly if the surface oxide layer is thick.  Aluminum oxide melts at a very high temperature compared to the aluminum metal, so the oxide layer will stay intact while the metal is molten underneath, making it difficult to see the puddle.  Generally, it is best to thoroughly remove the surface oxide with a clean stainless steel wire brush prior to welding.  It appears you are trying to weld directly on an anodized surface, which is by definition a thick oxide surface, so this appears to be the problem you are fighting.
Reply:I've cleaned it with a stainless steel brush (and a guilty attempt with sandpaper) prior to welding. Result is the same. Oh, and the orange-y discoloration was the result of the welding. I've tried on as many aluminum workpieces i could get my hands on, mostly aluminum tubes for car air intakes. I've been meaning to try on a clean fresh sheet with no anodizing treatments as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by spresvI've cleaned it with a stainless steel brush (and a guilty attempt with sandpaper) prior to welding. Result is the same. Oh, and the orange-y discoloration was the result of the welding. I've tried on as many aluminum workpieces i could get my hands on, mostly aluminum tubes for car air intakes. I've been meaning to try on a clean fresh sheet with no anodizing treatments as well.
Reply:1) No such switch, only polarity and remote for the foot pedal. Yes i have bothered. Doesn't say anything I haven't tried or tampered with, and the translation renders it pretty much useless anyway.2) I'll try to get some clean sheets.
Reply:most aluminum tubes for car air intakes are coated with a hard enamel coating to keep them from oxidizing.  Definitely start practicing on some raw pieces of aluminum.  The enamel coating on those pipes probably won't come off without alot of sanding.  I would guess that your pulling contamination from the enamel coating which is also interfering with the arc.  The orange/yellow color you are getting across the entire piece is because the enamel coating is heating up to the point where it's coloring due to the heat.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:what is a giant welder
Reply:1) Don't try to learn on 16 gauge (roughly .065").  Aluminum can go very quickly from just melting to blow through.  Get a block of 3/16" or at least 1/8".  Nice and flat.  When you weld aluminum 99% of the time you must add filler (more on this later)2) Aluminum gets shiny when its melted.  If you can see the reflection of the tungsten in the metal - its molten.  Time to dip the filler.3) Aluminum doesn't flow.  You can't move a puddle around to fill a hole, you must add filler.  If you just fusion weld, you will very likely just have it crack as it cools (depending how its constrained.4) Aluminum is relatively fast process.  Keep dipping that filler.  Don't wait too long.  If you can't keep up, less heat, or pulse more with pedal.  There's an art to it.  Watch that you are truely making the material molten or you risk piling very nice looking beads on the surface.  On something like T6, the weld will be weaker than the parent.  Good Idea to make the bead bigger.5) If that Giant welder has frequency control.  Try 100Hz.  I find that the higher the frequency the smaller the sweet spot.  If you haven't figured it out by now, Aluminum is welded on AC - not DC.  If you machine is incapable of changing the frequency, be aware that at 60Hz you will not be as focused as you would at higher frequencies.  Means wider puddle and more chance of drop out.6) Keep the balance about 80% electrode negative.  Try ceriated, zirconium, or rare earth electrode.  Sharpen to a point - then flatten the tip.  If you are balling you are running too hot.  If your machine is not capable of higher frequency, consider a less steep angle (less sharp of a point).  Maybe even 45 degrees (Should be OK for welding in the flat).Recommend you buy the video from HTP for the best visual of what goes on.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Originally Posted by ed macwhat is a giant welder
Reply:Originally Posted by brucercmon man, its a big F'in welder..
Reply:i know im new guys so correct me if im wrong .. but the tungstan is suposed to be balled when welding AL are you aware of this sprev ? is it possible his arc gap is to grate so by the time he burns through the oxide its way way to hot ? if possible we always have a backing plate either copper or AL to help suck the heat out of the weldment... i would buy some AL that way you know exactly what your welding and go from there.. one less variablemy 2 cents .. i know im new so thats about all its worth ..lol
Reply:Originally Posted by brucercmon man, its a big F'in welder..
Reply:+1 about the. Coating.  I have picked up a coated alum tube instead of a polished one, and it's impossible without major sanding to weld and after because it will discolor really badly and look like crap. Get alum tubes like those from Vibrant that are perfect for welding.Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:Very faint arc, no power, no puddle. That's exactly what my Syncrowave 200 does when I forget to attach the ground to the work. Attach the ground and hang on! Is it possible that you may have a ground issue?StephenMillermatic 251Miller Syncrowave 200Miller 30A SpoolgunHypertherm Powermax 30Etc., etc., etc.............Cancer Sucks!
Reply:Ed Mac...A "Giant" welder is a machine from "Giant Tech"...I am not surprised at all that it don't work....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:are u using a back bar on the aluminum ? whats the amperage your using ? try lowering the amperage.
Reply:Originally Posted by zjones832i know im new guys so correct me if im wrong .. but the tungstan is suposed to be balled when welding AL are you aware of this sprev ? is it possible his arc gap is to grate so by the time he burns through the oxide its way way to hot ? if possible we always have a backing plate either copper or AL to help suck the heat out of the weldment... i would buy some AL that way you know exactly what your welding and go from there.. one less variablemy 2 cents .. i know im new so thats about all its worth ..lol
Reply:On your machine, turn the balance knob most of the way (or all of the way) to the counter clockwise direction.  All the way will be 20% EP.  30% EP may be a good general purpose setting for aluminum.  More balance EP % will put more heat into your tungsten, but also help clean the surface oxides better.  But that doesn't mean it still won't be important to get it pretty darned clean before you start.  You will probably find very little use for 40-50% Balance EP, and no use absolutely for anything > 50%.  So keep the position of your balance knob on that machine turned no further clockwise than 12'oclock.  Unless you just want to melt your tungsten right away.Wintermute had a very good call about your aluminum having some sort of coating on it.  That will need to be removed from the front around the area you are welding.  And preferably removed from the back as well.Don't be too hesitant on welding current.  If you aren't using enough, your arc will dance around erratically.  A good rule of thumb is 1 amp per thousandth of material thickness.  Also, agreed with other poster who said its easier to learn on thicker material.  You don't need as precise hand motions with thicker material.Look for the aluminum puddle to be shiny, "mirror like", and reflective.  It won't change colors like a higher melting temperature material will (steel.)  If you find there is a "skin" over the surface of a puddle beneath, you've got some general problem with contamination, which can come from a variety of sources or causes.  The oxide skin, if thick enough, will prevent the puddle from flowing controllably, which is necessary if you are going to weld it.
Reply:Check here for some great videos and tips on welding aluminum. http://www.youtube.com/user/weldingtipsandtricks
Reply:i thouht it mite be a welder you buy in the frozen section at wallmartnext to the green giant veggys maybe a mixed bag that has peas (plasma)carrots (mig) and corn (tig) Attached ImagesLast edited by ed mac; 12-08-2010 at 10:07 PM.
Reply:I think you have a transformer based machine, and need to use pure (green) tungsten..R-Tech TIG 201 AC/DCThere is no need to use a pure tungsten on either a transformer or an inverter machine.
Reply:Norwelder, a WSE200 is a 200 amp Mosfet-based inverter machine manufactured in China.  It should be able to do 200 amps max, and can TIG aluminum in AC mode in a non-adjustable 60 Hz AC frequency, and with a 20-80% range of AC balance.  Although I haven't used a WSE200 before, my Mosfet-based Everlast Super200P is similar (basically just has the added features of pulsing and plasma cutting.)Ed mac - If you think such inverter machines can't possibly be serious tools, consider the following: I just TIG welded several chunks of 1.25" aluminum to 3/8" aluminum, and several plates of 3/8" aluminum together without any pre-heating; several linear feet of weld bead formed with 3/8"+ material in total on this project.  All without the machine flinching even once.  And all in a portable package that runs off a 30 amp clothes dryer circuit.  I did need to upgrade my aircooled WP-17 torch though, as it just didn't have the duty cycle the little inverter is capable of.  Attached Images
Reply:i dont trust anyting made in chinanothing last when i was a kid a toaster would last 15 yearsnow it seems you have to replace small applinces ever yeargo to home depot they call there stuff hampton bayi call it china bay and i dont trust inverters but some timesyou dont have a choice i bought my miller 200dx so i could tig weldalum. and did not have the power for a syncrowave 350do you think any of these inverter machines will be around 20 years from now that why miller still sells the spectrum 375so if i have a choice china is the the last choicei spent the extra money on my band saw and belt sander because it was made in tiwaun and iso 9000 cert.Last edited by ed mac; 12-10-2010 at 07:40 PM.
Reply:jakeru,Your lack of experience in tig welding is really showing.Not only do you make "stupid" claims, but you post photos to prove it.I own a Dynasty 200 and it WILL NOT PROPERLY WELD 3/8".  It's BS posts like this that make people that know what they're talking about resentful about the Chi-com crap and the inexperienced bozo's that buy them.If you're going to post BS, I'd suggest you do it on the Everlast board (not in the Everlast thread).  Chances are that no one there will question you, since most posters there are in the same boat, experience wise, as you are.  In other words, still tied to the shore.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Yea that's some ugly aluminum welding thereSyncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:Sundown, let me ask - how much "experience" do you have with a WSE-200 or a Super200P or similar variant?  And by that I mean, actual time using one to melt some liquid metal.Based on your "contribution" here, I'm guessing zero.  Therefore, it would be you who is the NOOB here, not me. You think your Miller Dynasty is similar to one eh?  No one is discussing your "duty cycle challenged" Dynasty 200 here.  But since you brought up a Dynasty 200:From http://www.millerwelds.com/products/...ty_200_series/"SPECIFICATIONSTIG Rated Output200 A at 18 V, 20% Duty Cycle"Yeah I'll BET it can't weld 3/8" aluminum satisfactorily...
Reply:Originally Posted by n20junkiethat's some ugly aluminum welding there
Reply:Originally Posted by jakeruMy customer was happy, and his is the opinion that matters most.
Reply:jakeru,You continue to show your stupidity and lack of knowledge.On one point you are right.  I have 0 time on a Chinese POS welder.  However, I've tig welded with quality machines for longer than, I suspect, you've been alive.  You might get a sufficient bead on 3/8" material by using DC- and helium, but that's way above your pay grade.Your comment about "the customer was happy" had me falling out of my chair, laughing on the floor.  You had the nerve to CHARGE someone for your sh1tty welds.  ALL the welds I see in the 3/8" plate are cold with little fusion to the base metal.  Looks like you melted the filler with the torch and dropped it in place.Your constant "singing the praises" of the cheap chinese POS welders is getting old.  You've never had a quality machine so you have no idea how a machine should perform when used properly.  Quit trying to freaking SELL chinese sh1t in your threads.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:You can see that you stood there on the pedal waiting for it to got hot by all the oxidation on the weld itself, and it's not washed in at all.  Its a cold weld that will probably get knocked off if its put up to any strain.  Once you use a real machine, you will know the difference.  I have a hard time welding properly with 275 amps over stressing my wp-20, with the proper -18 torch i can throw 325 amps to weld 1/4 corner to corner properly.  I would gladly weld with the smaller -20 torch if i could, and that is puting more amps at 100 percent duty cycle than your tinker toy can, and it can't come close to pulling it off without issues, so how is 200 doing it properly?I am realizing that the welding forum is like every other.  Newer guys think at the older guys over pay for huge machines, engines, transmissions, guns............ Until they gain experience and see that here is a reason the older guys sold off all the small stuff.  Because it just doesn't do the job properly.   The small stuff does just enough to not get returned.  I used to think that a syncrowave 180 was a home builder would need, until got into intercooler building.  Big chunks of aluminum take big amps to do properly, unless you want to preheat 50 lbs of aluminum and work over that mess of heat.Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:Originally Posted by jakeruDon't be too hesitant on welding current.  If you aren't using enough, your arc will dance around erratically.  A good rule of thumb is 1 amp per thousandth of material thickness.  Al
Reply:By no means am I an expert, but from the looks of jakeru's seam welds in the bottom of the photo I pray this is not structural!!!Under good conscious I couldn't charge for work like that...
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIf you can weld that @ 200 amps, why couldn't he do so @ 200 amps with a machine thats generally considered one of the best in the industry? 20% would give him 2 full minutes to do so. I doubt your 150 amp air cooled torch would last 2 minutes pedal to the floor on 200 amps and not melt. So whats duty cycle got to do with it? If you are trying to compare that to some other specs from your machine, why not list them?
Reply:Originally Posted by n20junkieYou can see that you stood there on the pedal waiting for it to got hot by all the oxidation on the weld itself, and it's not washed in at all.  Its a cold weld that will probably get knocked off if its put up to any strain.
Reply:This post is about the problems that can occur with TIG power supplies that may not have the amperage to create a full fusion puddle in parent metal.I don't have any experience with any TIG power supplies besides Hobart, Miller and Lincoln so I'm not making any remarks about specific equipment or their manufacturers. I've posted before about TIG and used some images to help show a site picture for TIG.  I'm using the same images to try to illustrate this point and all the colors are used to make surfaces more obvious than the countless shades of gray in aluminumFirst, regardless of who makes the power supply; aluminum conducts heat away from the weld zone based on the thickness and difference in temperature. Thicker colder material will move more heat in less time and the weld will require higher amperage at one point to melt the parent metal due to the combination of these two conditions.It doesn't matter what other factors are involved the rate of BTU's/Amps/heat energy added to the metal either melts it or it doesn't.   That includes lower setting where the metal may partially melt and not create full fusion.To verify this last assertion take ANY power supply and light up on a some aluminum and turn the power down so the arc is just barely sustained by the high freq.  As you increase amperage at some point the metal will or will not melt enough to weld.What I'm focused on here is the potential for a TIG weld to appear sound when it may not be fully fused.  the most common reason is because of low amperage whether too low a setting or inadequate power supply capacity- too low amperage can cause lack of fusion.The blue cups are the beginning of the arc's melting of the parent metal and in this image these two separate puddles are not fused - the color between the two blue areas shows a line of parent metal unfused.You'd add pedal/slider/or stay on that spot to increase heat before adding filler. If you stay there at full pedal/slider/control pot then the power supply doesn't have enough amperage to fuse this thickness of parent metal.here the filler has been added but there is a root fusion flaw built into the weld.  The cold fused area is only overlapped not melted/fused.looked at from another angle the puddle may appear fused under the hood but it may not be melted into the parent metal. The puddle will flood this area and cover it and even melt to conform to it but there may be cold lapping not welding at the root face.In the outside fillet shown here there should be a keyhole and full face fusion of the two parent metal edges- or you're not fully welding and the joint is substandard.In this image the left pieces are no strength because they're not welded the middle piece is cold welded and the amount of fusion is limited shown by the partial bevel. This beveled area is the amount of the weld face that is fused to the parent metal and will be holding the two pieces together.At the right is the fully beveled piece- showing that the faces are fully welded.  The reason to use a bevel to show this idea is that illustrates in a picture how much or how little is holding between the two pieces of metal.So you can weld with too little amperage may melt the filler and it may 'stick' to the toe and top of a fillet, but without enough amperage to fully fuse to the root intersection? The main root or back of the weld may only be fused to 1/2 or 1/3 of the face of the weld?Preheating can help a lower capacity power supply to add enough power to fuse heavier stock.  Preheating won't solve all problems unless the added heat is near welding heat if the power supply simply doesn't have enough amperage to add the required heat of fusion to the weld zone.If the beads tend to ball up, or bulge outward that tends to indicate the parent metal is not hot enough, deep enough to indicate fusion by allowing the filler to lay down into a fully molten puddle.  If the bead is not fully fused along the toe and top, that too indicates there could be 'trouble down below' and a lack of fusion.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Those illustrations are great Kevin. going to have to keep those for referenceThanks!
Reply:If you push too many amps you will eventually overheat the conductor to the torch and it will melt or burn a hole in the external coolant line.  A 50 amp increase isn't worth the price of an additional torch, when we do bigger stuff were well over 300 amps.   I have welded many water to air and air to air intercoolers.  Yea a small machine will do it, but your sitting in one spot waiting for it to heat up, and when inspected its not near as strong as a weld as a high amp machine can get.  You just overheat everything and think you penetrated properly, until it hits 20psi and backfires and that thing unzippers.  On a glass front end car its will toss the entire nose section of the car.  Just because a weld looks good, doesn't mean it is.  Especially on aluminum.Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:Originally Posted by n20junkieIf you push too many amps you will eventually overheat the conductor to the torch and it will melt or burn a hole in the external coolant line.
Reply:Originally Posted by n20junkieI am realizing that the welding forum is like every other.  Newer guys think at the older guys over pay for huge machines, engines, transmissions, guns............ Until they gain experience and see that here is a reason the older guys sold off all the small stuff.  Because it just doesn't do the job properly.   The small stuff does just enough to not get returned.
Reply:This is this weekends project, just because were bored.  An all aluminum trailer for my dads quad. I probably have more feet of aluminum weld both mig and tig in this one project than many have in their entire life.  There is a difference between having proper amps and equipment. Its still hot, and dirty, but you guys get the point.All outside corner to corner was done tig, all the inside was done with the mig. Material is 1/4 plate, at 50f, no preheat.Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:WOW that's good stuff right there.  NICE work.Have a Jeep Cherokee?  Click Here!
Reply:Thank you Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A
Reply:Great illustrations Kevin!Nice Trailer n20junkie, that thing will gleam in the sun!  I like the round bar along the gusset, thats a nice touchFriends don't let friends buy crappy welders.Buy American, or don't whine when you end up on the bread line.
Reply:n20 - For just whipping something out rough and quick over a weekend, not bad!  I think I'll stick with my smut-free TIG welds though, thank you very much.  I'll bet you had some challenging out of position welds on that project, especially if you didn't have an overhead crane, engine hoist or something to easily move that 200-300lb (or thereabouts, I'm guessing?) around.I'm sure using the MIG sped up the process considerably over TIG without any pre-heating.  Although I'll bet I could make reasonably quick work on such a project with my 200 amp TIG machine, when combined with a ~300k BTU propane weed burner, (which I'd use before lighting an arc with about 5-7 second long pre-heat blasts.)If you were intending on using this to take much load, I would potentially be concerned about the connection where the square tube joins the frame being a weak spot the way it is engineered, especially if you used an alloy that relies on heat treatment for strength (such as 6061-T6.)I agree with the other poster that the round tubing around the top edges is a nice touch.  It will help both stiffen the top edges of the walls, while also making them "soft to the touch".  Thanks for sharing.  Last edited by jakeru; 12-25-2010 at 05:26 PM.
Reply:If you think 200 amps could weld that your crazy, like i said it took 325 on the outside stuff most of the time with the tig. The black stuff whipes right off, its just a by product of that alloy, and they look better mig welded on the insides than most of the tig welds posted lately.  Stack of dimes means ****, if they are crap welds.  Watch a real machine weld, and you see a real difference.Syncrowave 350Coolmate 3Millermatic 251Spoolmatic 30A