AutoCAD vs. other softwares

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I graduate from college in just couple of weeks, and I hope to get a job somewhere as a welder. After I get my feet planted in a well-paying job I'd like to get into AutoCAD or a similar program. It'd most likely be just for my own benefit (not for my job unless it just worked out that way). My buddy from school and I plan to start our own business within the next few years, and we'll be building everything from ATV, motorcycle, and racercar frames (including rollcages for the cars) to shop equipment like toolboxes and shelving stuff. There's a lot more we want to build but this gives you the main idea of what we'd need the software for...1. What else is out there other than AutoCAD?2. Do you see a reason to go with something other than AutoCAD?3. If ACAD doesn't do this, what's a program that would be easy to turn my 3D models into 2D blueprints by computer?4. Is there a program that also offers online classes?5. A guy at school showed me a program that allows you to simulate pressure/force against a certain area of your model. I'd absolutely need this as one of the tools!!6. Is there a program where you can choose a material (carbon steel, aluminum, etc.) and put a weld into the drawing of a joint?I don't really see it getting insanely complex as far as crazy curvetures, and that guy said that's good because it means less training time with it... Thanks! John
Reply:AutoCAD is of course THE standard.Even other tools have 'AutoCAD' output and input.If you ever want a job drafting, you had better know AutoCAD.Now this info is kinda dated:At one point AutoCAD was unacceptable for things like 3D because it modeled everything as a shell (ie hollow).  If you wanted to feed the AutoCAD files into a FEA (Finite Element Analysis) tool you had to go to an intermediate step.For 3D, we used to use SolidWorks - at an aerospace company.With AutoCAD, their are tons of tutorials and local community colleges use it as well (student edition is cheap).  Hell Amazon probably has dozens of books covering AutoCAD (note, CAD books typically suck, hard to find what you need when you need it, but its better than nothing).Also, AutoCAD has a subscription service (pretty expensive) which gives updates when they become available.  Nice to have the latest and greatest around.I personally have TurboCAD.  Its cheaper (at least until you buy the full blown version then ?).  Its good enough and they are continually working it to make it better - AutoCAD being the benchmark.  To learn TurboCAD, there are a few web sites with extensive tutorials - basically start from scratch ones and draw really awesome 3D mechanism (like gears).For quick little drawings, enough to show a customer the idea - Google Sketchup. I don't know if they added the labeling tools to it.  I'm pretty sure it can't produce engineering drawings.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Solid works is easier and seems to be the standard around here.  Much easier than auto cad in my opinion.  I use FormZ, sort of a MAC version of solid works.  Learning curve to draw in 3D is high, but worth it.   I used TurboCad years ago, but it is a PC only program only know.  Do yourself a favor and lear to model, draw in 3D.  I have no idea what the new version of turbocad is like.  FormZ and Solid works will allow you to Render your drawing so it looks like a photograph of the finished project. Makes a good selling point.Last edited by blackbart; 06-19-2013 at 04:26 PM.
Reply:I've run Autocad, CadKey, ProEgneineer, Solid Works,  Solid Edge, and Turbocad. I loath and despise Acad.   There was never a more unfriendly program ever made.  It's popular because of how they marketed it. They let children in college steal it.  So everyone was running a pirate copy of the software and what did they ask for when they got jobs?  Yup. CadKey was the best  of the lower cost programs for decades and then they went out of business There's a NJ company  that  bought the rights to it and is reissuing it. ProE is just too costly.  I  found Solid Edge and Solid Works expensive and difficult to learnRight now for the cost and the learning curve TurboCad is my idea of the best program. There's sturdier software like Dassault Systems and ProEngineer, but what you pay  makes them not worth it unless you can get it on a big corporate budget. You don't have to buy the newest version either. You can get older versions of TurboCad for very very cheap online with the license in a new  unopened box..  Make sure you get a pro platinum version because a whole lot of really nice extras come with  it like stairs and threads  and a slew of editing options. Turbocad runs a very nice forum where you can get great advice fast. The educational software available os quite good too These guys like it  toohttp://www.engineering.com/Library/A...the-money.aspxWhatever you buy if you were using something else before, it will drive you crazy until you unlearn what you took years to learnallows you to simulate pressure/force against a certain area of your model.
Reply:SaladworksWelding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:I have been using Alibre design for several years. Works great for my needs.From the desk of Kevin CaronTrying to be the best me I can!www.kevincaron.comAHP Alpha Tig 200x MillerMatic 251Miller Syncrowave 200
Reply:Thanks for the responses, ya'll! Wow, lot of info there. hahaha kinda overwhelming to read all at once but great! I'll take some more time later to look and compare programs, and I'll talk with my other buddy at school some more. He's going into CNC later, and I swear he'll be my first employee if he wants it. hahahaI think  what I'll do after I look into the softwares more is get something like Google Sketchup (I that's what he showed me the other day.) Think I'll get that to get a basis down and then work my way up, especially since it'd be much cheaper. Thanks again! Anyone else?
Reply:Freebyte has links to several CAD, CAD/CAM and FEA demo programs you can download.  Most have something disabled but it gives you a chance to play with them and see the differences.  http://www.freebyte.com/cad/index.htmlRogerOld, Tired, and GRUMPYSalesman will call, Batteries not included, Assembly is required, and FREE ADVICE IS WORTH EXACTLY WHAT YOU PAY FOR IT!Dial Arc 250HFThunderbolt 225 AC/DCAssorted A/O torches
Reply:Many teenagers fresh out of school are using Autocad these days. Dont consider yourself to be in high demand because you can make a drawing with CAD software these days.I am experienced with Torchmate CAD which is the CAD software that came with my cnc table package.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:I think you can get cad for free if you are a student, i got it for free really easily using my student id, and im sure if you want you could use my id and get it for free as well. the only thing is i think the free version has a watermark when printed out.
Reply:AutoCad may have improved, but last time I tried to draw a bent pipe drawing on FormZ in took minutes ( as I assume solidworks would as well)  AutoCad took almost an Hour to do accurately, I might be doing it wrong, but I do a lot of weldment drawings involving bent pipe or tube.
Reply:I learned SolidWorks on my own first in the first shop I worked in. Later on I was forced to learn autocad in school and absolutely despised it. Solidworks has a very nice set of simulation packages that can go with it, including FEA structural and stress analysis, as well as mold flow analysis (which is damn handy for injection molds). Get ready to pay some big bucks for those, though..A standard base solidworks license is around $4k, the simulation packages can be upwards of another $10k depending on what you get, 10k being for all of them.
Reply:@ JLmC213 - We think, see, and feel in 3-D.  Recommend hit the grounding running via a parametric-based computer aided design software.  No question.  SolidWorks has an easy learning curve, is geometrically-intuitive, and priced well for the small business owner.Learned ACAD back in the day, but would never elect to rip it now for 2-D and/or 3-D design/builds.  AutoDesk, the makers of ACAD, does have a few cool industry specific packages (think: architectural, hydraulics, earthworks); however, the parent program is a PITA for launching concepts-to-design-to-modifications-to-product for "our" industry.  Using text, alone, in ACAD is a nightmare.......SolidWorks reminds me of Mac, and ACAD mimics the PC world.  Again, context.  You can lots with both packages, but time is money and having the ability to alter designs on the fly is where SolidWorks excells.Last edited by ManoKai; 06-21-2013 at 11:33 AM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:I haven't used autocad but as far as 2D drafting I have heard draftsight is very similar and it's free. If you are interested in learning 2D drafting it would probably be a good place to start. After using Solidworks for years draftsight or other traditional 2D drafting programs just seemed like an idiotic way of trying to accomplish anything. Unfortunately Solidworks is not cheap. I do have a friend who uses Alibra now and coming from a Solidworks background he sounded pretty happy with it. Since I can't afford Solidworks and have gone strictly Linux anyway I have been using Freecad. It is still beta and is still missing a lot of functionality but it does 95% of what I need it to these days. You can make drawings from your models but they don't have GD&T implemented yet so you can't dimension your drawings. At least not last time I checked. http://www.freecadweb.org/Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:Sketchup. Not the best for 2d stuff but it's great for 3d and doing renderings. Best part is that it's free, and has a large following on the web for help and tutorials, etc.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:JMcL213, with your description SketchUP Pro is the simplest solution on the market.It has hundreds of 'add-ins' or 'plug ins' to do different jobs inside the original application, they're free and allow piping and machine drawing tools inside the software. then if you need hard copy output there is a new feature (new a few versions ago) called Layout that is included in the cost of the software (hundreds not thousands of $) and it allows fully control of paper printing preparation including allt he title blocks, labeling, dimensioning and detail views.I've used and instructed in ACAD from DOS/Ver 9. in 1990 and would remark about that software.  Lots of folks using ACAD without the 'front end' that is ; they work in native ACAD and that is not as 'agile' as other programs due to the heritage or legacy of the trying to keep their upgrades backward compatible for a few years.What AutoDesk, the publisher, intends is for you to buy the 'productivity' software for your specialty.  So if we use ACAD native the tool use to get a job done many be many steps compared to a 'front end' software specializing in one of hundreds of specialty areas of graphics.If we took time to draw a cylinder, with a second one inside to simulate a pipe, then did an intersection of two of these 'pipes' the time would be relatively long compared to using the pipe drawing software where the ACAD commands are 'programmed' into the actions 'draw pipe'.   So native ACAD, I think,  should be discussed separately from the ACAD community of software; it is high priced, targeting large groups of engineering pro's working in big companies and only gets really fast when you beat it to death with hundred dollar bills.On the other hand is Sk'UP with Layout and plug-ins is low cost, does all you'll need and both parametric and fully 3D but those models are instantly shown in either perspective or non so you can have a page with a tool box in 3D, then top bottom end traditional views on the same page with dimensions.cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:The best thing about learning 3D modeling is, If it doesn't fit in the model, it won't fit when you make it.  This is especially true when you do stairs etc.  Most good modeling programs allow you to print 2D sections off them, making scaled drawings a breeze, once you learn how. I design everything in a 3D word now, then print both isometric and scaled 2D drawings off the same drawing.  Again, I use FormZ, which I would compare to solidworks, but the cost is over $1000.  FormZ is usually used for animation, Disney, Lego and other use it for movies.  I don't know how to do that yet, but I can create a "fly through and walk around" animation for clients and fabricators of complicated projects.  The rendering will actually calculate sun and shade pictures for given locations.  It comes out looking like a real photograph of the finished project, if you have to sell an idea.    I'm pretty sure there are cheaper programs that will suit 99% of most peoples needs out there like the ones described by other posters. I just don't want to relearn another one, FormZ had a steep learning curve, especially teaching yourself.
Reply:Originally Posted by JMcL213I graduate from college in just couple of weeks, and I hope to get a job somewhere as a welder. After I get my feet planted in a well-paying job I'd like to get into AutoCAD or a similar program. It'd most likely be just for my own benefit (not for my job unless it just worked out that way). My buddy from school and I plan to start our own business within the next few years, and we'll be building everything from ATV, motorcycle, and racercar frames (including rollcages for the cars) to shop equipment like toolboxes and shelving stuff. There's a lot more we want to build but this gives you the main idea of what we'd need the software for...1. What else is out there other than AutoCAD?2. Do you see a reason to go with something other than AutoCAD?3. If ACAD doesn't do this, what's a program that would be easy to turn my 3D models into 2D blueprints by computer?4. Is there a program that also offers online classes?5. A guy at school showed me a program that allows you to simulate pressure/force against a certain area of your model. I'd absolutely need this as one of the tools!!6. Is there a program where you can choose a material (carbon steel, aluminum, etc.) and put a weld into the drawing of a joint?I don't really see it getting insanely complex as far as crazy curvetures, and that guy said that's good because it means less training time with it... Thanks! John
Reply:All come with various license agreements.  Depends on what you want to do with it.  I used FormZ free for years, but when I started giving drawings to others,lic cost $1000+.  They all have free demo versions that allow you to learn, but not print or save.  Most student editions have limits too.  The designers want you to learn and get used to their product, so they don't care until you start making money by sending plans out.  I told FormZ I had a hacked copy and was ready to buy the license because I was upgrading my computer and had plans I was going to distribute.  It took me days to convert all my drawings to different formats so I could open them on the legal version. They helped me because I was trying to make it right, but not all my work came out right.   I would try the cheaper ones folks are talking about.  Most of the expense in the high end programs is in the animation, sun/shade calculations, engineering calculations, Photorealistic rendering etc.  Alot of that is not needed.    In my opinion AutoCad is being overrun by solid works in the fabrication world, but it depends what company you work for.  FormZ Is mainly an animation program, it's just what I use. I find I can draw about the same as solidworks with it.  Solid Works, however is starting to have engineering add ons for stress analysis, which is great for many designers.
Reply:I've used Autocad, turbocad, and qcad. All for 2D work. A few years ago I switched to Alibre Design Expert. It does everything I need. I can create full assemblies. I find the sheet metal module especially handy. This was one of the first projects I went straight from cad to the plasma table. http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=40110I've been thinking about buying SolidWorks but the cost (initial buy + annual maintenance) has kept me using Alibre for now.  Everyone expects SolidWorks models these days.If you work for someone, I'd suggest you learn the program they use. I originally learned Autocad while working for an engineering company. They paid the training and provided me with ample real world work to hone my skills on.If your doing this for personal improvement then I'd pick one and take a few classes at the community college before sinking the big bucks on software.If your looking to do roll cages and such, I suggest looking at Bend-Tech Pro. Dirt cheap and it purpose built for bending tube. http://www.bend-tech.com/bt_pro.htm
Reply:I started out using Catia, then Medusa, then ProE and now Solidworks.  Back in the 80's/90's ACAD was damn near encouraged to be pirated so small shops and independents would flood the use of it (my opinion).  Out of curiosity I took a Tech School night class for ACAD and quit it after 2 weeks and got my money back. If your serious about having a biz that will be doing work for customers that already have 3D modeling software be aware you can convert 3D files to IGS and STEP. But working in the same software will give you the best functionality if going back and forth with the customer.  If you were buying software for a business right now I'd say Solidworks or ProE because of how widely used it is.  But in 3 years maybe Alibre or TurboCad will be the new kid on the block. Also, just because you have access to some inexpensive finite element analysis software (like SimulationXpress included in Solidworks Pro) don't assume you'll get accurate results spit back out.  Those lite versions have very little parameter control and are pretty much limited to very simple problems that you should be able to just use your own common sense to know where to put a gusset or beef up a thickness.  Folks that run FEA for real have boatloads of training on how to set up models for meshing and know how to interpret the results.  The saying "garbage in, garbage out" applies to that world.  Without that knowledge there is no way I would trust it solely for an answer to do customers work where safety is a concern. I totally applaud you for your plans, go for it!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireI've been thinking about buying SolidWorks but the cost (initial buy + annual maintenance) has kept me using Alibre for now.  Everyone expects SolidWorks models these days.
Reply:Never heard of BendTech. It looks like I'll have to check it out.  Tube bends are an obstical to many programs.