vertical stick welding

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i have always wondered which way was correct. why that way is who knows maybe both may be.    SHOULD I WELD UP OR DOWN WHEN VERTICAL WELDING. i have heard from my actual teacher that it is up, but from my sub who also is certafied that i should go down. also i have heard all diffrent ways on this site. can some one show some evidence such as a cut weld or something to show actual pennitration? please and reasons like everyone i know does it that way is not acceptable. i have looked into this on the computer but they both have there argument points. maybe there has been a thread about this but i have not seen it please give me a link if so thanks. Zach
Reply:low hydrogen rod ie 7018 vertical up , vertical up only , yes ive ran it downhill in a pinch cause i wanted to and i was bein lazy and it was something that didnt matter structurally , 6010 i hate to run uphill just cause i think it sucks imo , i run it downhill for the most part on pipe.  In the Kansas City area since a bridge in a motel broke a few years ago and all structural jobs in the area are vertical up , u will not be allowed any vertical down , depends upon the code as well and the specifications of the weld procedure . imo vertical up is the only way to go lohi , and 6010 is a either or decision based on experience
Reply:If the purpose of going to school is to become a professional welder, then welding will be vert up. If your looking to avoid vert up then quit school and go do something else. Every place that is worth working at will test you and if you can't go up then more and likely you would not be allowed to finish the test, muchless be hired. About your sub, it look as if somebody has gotten LAZY . If would need proof then get your hands on some books from Lincoln Electric and start reading.
Reply:UP hand for all structural. It takes a while to learn . Have met alot of self called REAL welders who make alot of grapes when tested .
Reply:Vert down has always been popular on thin material because it doesn't penetrate adequately.  Pipe is a whole different story, techniques are different, materials are different, so shouldn't enter into this discussion.To answer your own question make two passes on a fillet joint.  One vert down, and one vert up.  Look at the toes of the weld, and see where the most undercut is.  You'll find the most undercut on vert up welds.  The reason is...........more penetration.  Simple. Filling the undercut, and not spilling the metal across the middle of the weld is an acquired skill for vert up welding.  Don't ***** out and try to make any kind of decent weld downhill, it just won't be a good weld."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Vertical up is what you'll see in Power piping.  Rutile flux rods like E7018, E8018-B2, E9018-B9, all leave a heavy slag and are subject to slag entrapment and lack of fusion defects at the speeds needed to run them downhill.  Most rutile flux rods can be found in a low-hydrogen version to reduce crack potential, and a greater amount of weld can be deposited per pass in the uphill direction, as the trailing slag and puddle freeze acts like a "shelf", supporting the molten metal above it.  With Power Piping, it is increasingly rare to see stick welded root passes for the following reasons - welder abilities, low hydrogen requirements, and pipe cleanliness requirements, especially where you run the risk of slag/sparks making their way to valve seats, etc.  You will see downhill welding to some extent with boiler construction for welding membrane, but SMAW is being phased out for those purposes and being replaced with GMAW and FCAW applications.Cellulose flux rods, like E6010, leave a very light slag, and their deep dig characteristics allow quick, quality downhill welds, especially in root passes.  Where you will see this used the most is in pipeline work, where they want to avoid the slow speeds of the GTAW process, and wall thicknesses and material types are less apt to result in hydrogen cracking.  RT requirements are typically less as well, so "wagon track" defects from the root/hot passes play less of an issue.
Reply:your sub should go back to school its UP
Reply:Originally Posted by Jay OIf the purpose of going to school is to become a professional welder, then welding will be vert up. If your looking to avoid vert up then quit school and go do something else. Every place that is worth working at will test you and if you can't go up then more and likely you would not be allowed to finish the test, muchless be hired. About your sub, it look as if somebody has gotten LAZY . If would need proof then get your hands on some books from Lincoln Electric and start reading.
Reply:Originally Posted by FarmerUP hand for all structural. It takes a while to learn . Have met alot of self called REAL welders who make alot of grapes when tested .
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammVert down has always been popular on thin material because it doesn't penetrate adequately.  Pipe is a whole different story, techniques are different, materials are different, so shouldn't enter into this discussion.To answer your own question make two passes on a fillet joint.  One vert down, and one vert up.  Look at the toes of the weld, and see where the most undercut is.  You'll find the most undercut on vert up welds.  The reason is...........more penetration.  Simple. Filling the undercut, and not spilling the metal across the middle of the weld is an acquired skill for vert up welding.  Don't ***** out and try to make any kind of decent weld downhill, it just won't be a good weld.
Reply:True school does not make you a pro, but when you go out into the field you will notice the difference between people who have learned on the job and those with some schooling.
Reply:Definately UP less if any slag inclusions and better penetration as stated above. You can get away with downhill with a 6011 or 6010 but always better to go UP. With the 6010 or 6011 going up I like to whip the rod in and out just a bit . With the 7018 as a cap either burn straight up or weave it back and forth depending on the joint. If you weave then slightly pause on each side of the weld and move quick across the puddle. Looking for a somewhat horizontal 8 profile.
Reply:7018 will weld in any position you point it. the 1 in 7018 means all positions. that being said it's true that all structual,power house piping,boilertube is done vert. up. almost all your 5g testing is vert up. one of the last certs I had at a powerhouse was a x-ray vert down 7018 with backstrap test for seal welding duct work. I also have certs for vert down 7018 guided bend (root,face and also side bend). back in the mid 70s I took a 6in sch 40 pipe open root 5g and 2g position with 7018 down all the way out on the 5g these where x-ray. don't know what it was for because we never used the procedure.  years ago working for chicago bridge all vert-up welds the cover pass was cladded over with vert down. I believe a student should be taught vert-up first because that is the most required way of testing. after they learn the 3 posi. plate and 5g and 6g pipe (or tube) then teach them the vert down with 7018.     revpol
Reply:undercut is not depositing enough metal in the bead where the toe meets the base metal....the arc melts the base metal  and the stick is there to provide more metal..if the travel is too fast  not enough metal is depoositied ( i aint gonna correct this one its a doozy  )and  you see the  "low" spots....
Reply:Originally Posted by revpol7018 will weld in any position you point it. the 1 in 7018 means all positions. that being said it's true that all structual,power house piping,boilertube is done vert. up. almost all your 5g testing is vert up. one of the last certs I had at a powerhouse was a x-ray vert down 7018 with backstrap test for seal welding duct work. I also have certs for vert down 7018 guided bend (root,face and also side bend). back in the mid 70s I took a 6in sch 40 pipe open root 5g and 2g position with 7018 down all the way out on the 5g these where x-ray. don't know what it was for because we never used the procedure.  years ago working for chicago bridge all vert-up welds the cover pass was cladded over with vert down. I believe a student should be taught vert-up first because that is the most required way of testing. after they learn the 3 posi. plate and 5g and 6g pipe (or tube) then teach them the vert down with 7018.     revpol
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadundercut is not depositing enough metal in the bead where the toe meets the base metal....the arc melts the base metal  and the stick is there to provide more metal..if the travel is too fast  not enough metal is depoositied ( i aint gonna correct this one its a doozy  )and  you see the  "low" spots....
Reply:If I ever witnessed someone performing a structural weld downhand with a 7018 rod I would crack him or her over the head with a 3 pound hammer! SCARY!
Reply:Re: vertical stick weldingQuote:Originally Posted by revpol View Post7018 will weld in any position you point it. the 1 in 7018 means all positions. that being said it's true that all structual,power house piping,boilertube is done vert. up. almost all your 5g testing is vert up. one of the last certs I had at a powerhouse was a x-ray vert down 7018 with backstrap test for seal welding duct work. I also have certs for vert down 7018 guided bend (root,face and also side bend). back in the mid 70s I took a 6in sch 40 pipe open root 5g and 2g position with 7018 down all the way out on the 5g these where x-ray. don't know what it was for because we never used the procedure. years ago working for chicago bridge all vert-up welds the cover pass was cladded over with vert down. I believe a student should be taught vert-up first because that is the most required way of testing. after they learn the 3 posi. plate and 5g and 6g pipe (or tube) then teach them the vert down with 7018. revpol7018 the 1 = the position lol thats good i was in class today and we reviewed the numbers and that was problly one of the first things we learnd and only 3 out of 27 kids knew after being in the class 2 years. it not even like we had to know the 18 part or the coating / current and about half knew that the 70 was tensile strengthReply With QuoteD1.1, 3.7.1 vertical up welding requirements.the progression for all passes in vertical welding shall be upward , except that undercut may be repaired vertically downwards when preheat is in conformance with table 3.2 but not lower than 70 degrees f 20 degrees c , however when tubular products are welded the progression of vertical welding may be upwards or downwards but only in the direction for which the welder is qualified. IMO , not that it is correct or in correct , the 1 does mean all position , it does not in any of my books that i have found in my possession at the moment have a designator for vertical up or down, I personally would not run 7018 downhill , it has to much slag on the coating for me to feel it to be adequate for anything structural , I have not had a inspector or a procedure call out lohy in any vertical down progression. I can't understand why on anything that u would be using lohy on u would want to run downhill , i can produce alot more deposition running vert ^ , and i know the weld does penetrate a great amount more then running vert down , i also don't run " weaves" but like i said this is my personal opinion and for me to tell anyone they are wrong is a manifesto of my ego and false pride , but i realize in this society we live in "safety is my number one priority and i would not and could not allow myself to run vertical down anything structural" " most everything i do is structural" 6010 is a different story.I forgot how to change this.
Reply:im currently in school and on 6010 vert up and it is quite a task. im at school 5 days a week from 8-2 and this is the 2nd week ive been working on it. still not seeing much progress. everything else ive done ive picked up pretty quick but vert up is challenging. i thought i was the sh!t then got to this and it humbled me quick.
Reply:Originally Posted by MaDeNMiAmi305im currently in school and on 6010 vert up and it is quite a task. im at school 5 days a week from 8-2 and this is the 2nd week ive been working on it. still not seeing much progress. everything else ive done ive picked up pretty quick but vert up is challenging. i thought i was the sh!t then got to this and it humbled me quick.
Reply:Vertical isnt bad, it depends what youre welding, and the rod you select. 7018 needs tight arcs, and fluid motion. 6010 is a walk in the park.Im not a "Pro", but Im working on it. Ive found rod angle, and arc length are essential for a quality and visually pleasing weld. Im sure others have different methods.Experiment and listening to Old Pros' has worked well for me..Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP ( boat anchor )Lincoln Weld-Pac 100 HDHobart IronMan 230Cutmaster 42Jackson NexGenSumner Ultra ClampsDWM120
Reply:hmm i had alot more trouble with 6010 but my 7018's (a few but deffinatley some) were acused of me cheating. until i layed it right in front of his eyes however i do have quiet a few noob ones wit dingle berrys hangin but im not even done wit school yet ....... how do you angle your rod with the tip (the burning part) up or down i have it above but not by much
Reply:i perfer 7018 over 6010 any day. the only thing rough about vertical for me is position. i know how to do it i just need a bit more practice.
Reply:himsa169, you seem to be a student that wants to learn so don't let that teacher slack off on his duty to teach!  Ask pertinent questions and have him show you the proper way to do something until you have it down pat. Make good use of his and your time.  Don't pay a lot of attention to the other kids in your class.  You seem to have a desire to learn and it sounds like for the most part they don't.  Just keep in mind that this could lead to a bright future if you apply yourself.  Regarding 7018, in all but a very few limited circumstances, travel will be vertical up.  6010 can be up or down with good results.  Under ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) Section IX (Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code) and AWS (American Welding Society) structural code requirements you'll find that upward progression is required.  Under API (American Petroleum Institute) requirements downhill is the norm.  There could be exceptions to this, I'm just a welder, not a CWI (Certified Welding Inspector).  If this needs corrected, I know it will happen.Good luck with your welding, Bob."The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State, because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."  Teddy RooseveltAmerican by birth, Union by choice!  Boilermakers # 60America is a Union.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob the Welderhimsa169, you seem to be a student that wants to learn so don't let that teacher slack off on his duty to teach!  Ask pertinent questions and have him show you the proper way to do something until you have it down pat. Make good use of his and your time.  Don't pay a lot of attention to the other kids in your class.  You seem to have a desire to learn and it sounds like for the most part they don't.  Just keep in mind that this could lead to a bright future if you apply yourself.  Regarding 7018, in all but a very few limited circumstances, travel will be vertical up.  6010 can be up or down with good results.  Under ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) Section IX (Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code) and AWS (American Welding Society) structural code requirements you'll find that upward progression is required.  Under API (American Petroleum Institute) requirements downhill is the norm.  There could be exceptions to this, I'm just a welder, not a CWI (Certified Welding Inspector).  If this needs corrected, I know it will happen.Good luck with your welding, Bob.While one could learn such things in a book, learning the unwritten dictionary comes from experience. There is no substitute. I would say that if you are bright and motivated, you would be pleased to see how quickly knowledge will come.Don't ever discount education of any kind, it all has a cost, and is always worth the price be it time or money you spend getting it.Patience pays off.Regards,RobGreat Basin WeldingInstagramBlue weldersRed weldersMy luscious Table DIY TIG Torch cooler
Reply:I know that this thread is about vertical stick welding but what about vertical MIG?  What is the recommended way to go, up or down, and pros or cons of either way?
Reply:good question i have not done it often but i tryd up and just totally failed at it so i stick to tacking wit mig if vertical then stick  if i can
Reply:Originally Posted by txcarbuilderI know that this thread is about vertical stick welding but what about vertical MIG?  What is the recommended way to go, up or down, and pros or cons of either way?