Min. requirements to tig AL???

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First off I am a newbie to welding. I have had my MM212 for 3 months now and try to use it as much I can.  The wife doesn't really like it cause I try and weld everything now.  Any way I am very intrigued by the tig process. I have been reading just about everything I can on the tigging process. I was looking at older welders such as the Miller Dialarcs. I am only unsure of the exact requirements to weld AL. I know it is welded in AC but not much else. I see all these people looking for a CC/CV power supply but I haven't been able to figure out if it is out of neccessity or just an option that makes things easier. My question is what are the minimum requirements to weld AL with the tig process? Also what options are good ones to have that are borderline requirements? I have been looking at used machines and the Miller syns stand out but I don't have the 2K+ to spend on one.Thanks LukeMillerMatic 212Mkita chop sawand a head full of ideas
Reply:When I asked this same question (kindof) about a month ago some of the best advice I got was "search is your friend". I'm still readin on old threads. Good luck.!!   d:^)  Schneeks..ESAB 161 LTSCommunicate & adapt, diggit.?ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Reply:To do alum tig you must have a CC machine capable of AC and high frequency at a minimum. So if you had an old AC/DC stick machine with a HF box in theory you can do AC tig. However it will not be easy, especially if you can not tig to begin with. Most good CC/CV powersources are not AC/DC only DC so that rules out alum tig. Exceptions being some engine drives.Tig 101... Alum tig is more difficult than doing tig with steel. Besides the fact the puddle doesn't change color, you need more amps for the same thickness because alum is such a good heat sink. You won't get a bead going, you'll heat the whole plate if you can't pump the heat in faster than it wants to spread. As soon as you get the puddle going however you want to start backing down the heat because now the plate is warming up and if you don't you melt thru. Thats where a pedal comes into play. On some older machines all the pedal will do is turn the power on and off. It's a switch, nothing more. On "newer" dedicated tigs, the pedal is just like the gas pedal on your car. The more you push down the more heat you get (up the what you have the machine set at). If you let up on the pedal, the heat drops just like your car slows down. This allows you to control the puddle easier than with older machines with set amps.Don't expect to buy a tig and start on alum. It's no where as easy as mig. Start with steel and get all the basics down cold first on an "easy" material, then take that basic knolege and apply it when learning alum. A class will be a huge help with the learning curve, especially if you end up going cheap and getting a very basic machine that was originally designed as a stick machine. Expect to spend probably at least a year if not more even with classes as a hobiest learning enough tig to do very basic alum. Good "budget" tigs that will do AC/DC are out there. Zaps Miller 330A/BP for example. A good machine like this that is a dedicated tig will run $500-800 used. The down side is they are heavy and suck a ton of power to run. The up side is that as an industrial class machine they will be tough for the hobbiest to out grow. Used Syncrowaves will set you back from $1000-1500 for the Sync 180/200's. Smaller, less power requirements and more advanced features, but you give up top end power and pay a bit more. Keep your eyes open on CL using searchtempest or some other search engine and you will find one in your range eventually.As Schneeky said, search is your friend. This topic gets covered at least onece a week it seems so theres a ton of info already here to go thru and absorb while you wait for the right one to show up..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks for the info. DSW I know that there is a steep learning curve associated. I am willing to put in the hood time to become proficient and learn the process. A class will be hard as I work offshore on a 7/7 schedule but I will go to the local CC and see if they can help me out. So minimum is a CC AC machine with HF? The reason for the question in the first place is I have a couple hotrods and am sick of spending $150 for a overflow can. I know that they have materials and time and all that but $150 worth? Also I will be starting a new build in the not too distant future and it would come in handy as some things on it will have to be one off and I will not pay for someone else to do something I am capable of.I tried the search feature and it brings up all kind of topics that have that word no where in them. I may be doing something wrong but I do not know what.LukeMillerMatic 212Mkita chop sawand a head full of ideas
Reply:Also what is this searchtempest you mention? Is there a search engine that blankets CL? That would be nice as I wouldn't have to change location every time.LukeMillerMatic 212Mkita chop sawand a head full of ideas
Reply:http://www.searchtempest.com/It's allows you to input a term say "welder" and a distance from your location you'd like to search using a zipcode or city. I usually use 100 miles. I use "welder" because if the poster doesn't say "tig" in his listing it won't pull it up. I'll use this also on vacation when I might not know all the local lists, but I still know the zipcode and shorten my seach area to say 25 miles.I want to be very clear with this. While alum tig is "possible" with a very basic machine, you want to get a dedicated AC/DC tig NOT just a CC stick machine and then add a HF box and tig gear. Usually the HF box alone will set you back almost what a dedicated tig will, and you get a very poor second grade machine. There is no "cheap" route to doing alum regardless of the process, and if you want the quality of tig vs mig, you need to expect to shell out the dollars for the equipment. A pedal is not really "optional" for doing alum tig unless you've learned old school.There are any number of guys here who have done some good alum tig posts. Try using the advanced search and use my name, SundownIII, Kevin Moran, and so on to help narrow the search. Even  using Schneeky will pull up some good threads from his questions.To me $150 sounds "cheap" vs the expense of getting a $500-800 tig machine and then adding in all the steel and alum for coupons, rod, gas, electric, tungstens and so on. I help teach basic tig/mig at the local tech school. Most guys even with good instruction will only get thru the flat coupons and maybe start their horizontals in steel in the 10 week term if they are lucky. We had a gentelman last term that had been doing alum mig for years and wanted to learn alum tig for much the same reasons you do. He already knew and understood what he was seeing looking at an alum puddle, and could understand puddle manipulation. Still even with his own machine at home ( he picked up a nice used Sync 180 for $1000) he still only made it thru 1/2 of horizontal on steel. Don't expect to be doing alum tig projects "soon". I'll bet the guy mentioned above burned at least 10-12 20' lengths of 3"x1/8" flat in the class alone. All of a sudden that $150 part starts to sound cheap compared to theinvestment this will take to do it right..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:" I have a couple hotrods and am sick of spending $150 for a overflow can."Makes no sense.You can make an overflow can out of steel or stainless steel.You can buy plastic ones.They make them in anodized aluminum.$150.00 ???A good TIG welding machine will cost you at least $2500.00A used Miller or Lincoln Syncrowave will be the best.Must be water cooled, foot control. This is what it will take to get the results you see for $150.00 aluminum version built perfectly by a welder doing them all day long, every day, perfectly.All this because you did not want to spend $150.00 for an overflow recovery can?AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Hi HotRodder, I hope you go ahead with your plans to learn a new skill.  Welding is way cheap to learn compared to some skills that require years of apprenticeship, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, and thousands of dollars worth of diesel fuel.  Go for it buddy, doing things your own way has no price.         Best, Ralph
Reply:Hotrodder,First thing you need to get your "head around" is that tig welding aluminum is NOT CHEAP.You can try going cheap and piece together a system that will melt aluminum together.  With said system, you'll constantly be asking yourself the question, "Is it me or is it the machine that's screwing up".Learning and becoming proficient at the tig process is enough of a challenge in itself, without having to worry about the machine.  There is a definite reason why tig is considered the "most difficult" of the welding processes to do properly.At your current stage of development, I'd recommend going to the Miller website (Millerwelds.com) and clicking on the resources tab.  Look for their offer for their "Student Pack".  It's $25 including shipping.  It includes an excellent TIG HANDBOOK, a good GMAW HANDBOOK. and a bunch of other useful goodies (like welding calculators).  Best $25 you'll ever spend on welding.Read the Tig Handbook, and you'll have a better idea of what spending the extra money gets you.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by hkstwn7Hi HotRodder, I hope you go ahead with your plans to learn a new skill.  Welding is way cheap to learn compared to some skills that require years of apprenticeship, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, and thousands of dollars worth of diesel fuel.  Go for it buddy, doing things your own way has no price.         Best, Ralph
Reply:Hotrodder,You are the same place I was a couple years ago, so I'll share my experience. I had been using a mig for years (I'll hesitate to call myself a weldor considering the kind of company we are in on this board) and I purchased a Hobart Handler 210. Pretty neat little welder and I was getting pretty decent with it. But I wanted to weld aluminum and I like to try new things. I missed a Lincoln SW175 (Square Wave Tig 175) and had decided I wanted it (too late). I then stumbled into another one for sale and figured it must be a bit of fate that I should own that machine. Besides, "how hard can it be?"...lol.It's been just under two years since I bought my tig (give or take a bit) and I'm reaching a point where I'm mostly "sorta" proficient at steel and I can weld some aluminum stuff that is not only stuck together (where it won't fail for its intended purpose), but it's even occasionally pretty...at least in spots. I'm still fairly far away from building my own catch cans and radiators, etc. I haven't been living in the garage under the hood, but I work at it pretty hard for a bit, then get busy with life and go back to it. Everyone has their own learning curve. Tig has been one of the more challenging things I've ever tried to learn and I'd do it all over again. I'd just do it now knowing that not only will I not really save any money, it would be cheaper to pay someone to make the things I need. Still, there's a certain satisfaction to doing it yourself and finally laying down that first pretty nice bead.A quick run down of my rough costs:$700 Used Lincoln SW175 with 12.5 foot WP9 torch$150 assorted consumables for the WP9 torch$250+ (probably $350+ with all the parts) Weldcraft 25 foot WP17 and cups, gas lens and assorted parts$189 330 cu ft argon bottle (and a few hundred dollars in gas)$100+ Castors, steel and assorted parts to build a cart for the welder$100 for a new Jackson auto dimming helmet that allowed me to actually see the puddle.$100 for breaker and wiring to wire up the tig in my garage$1-million dollars spent on all types of assorted tungsten (I have about 100 pieces of it) trying to find the magic answer to welding aluminum...the answer was practice time trying all these tungstens. It had little to do with what I was using in the torch and much to do with the idiot holding that torch.And I need a water cooler and torch a lot more than I thought I would. ($550-$1k additional).With that said, I know I still got into tig welding "on the cheap". I learned a lot and realized that everybody is right when they say that this stuff isn't as easy as the pros make it look. I'm going to suggest that you buy a tig machine. If you think you want to learn to tig weld, I think it's a great idea. And if you reach the point where you can weld up catch cans and radiators, etc, that's a nice bonus. It can be pretty humbling. Just don't quit.As always, your results may vary. Good luck!KevinHobart Handler 210Tweco Fabricator 181iLincoln Squarewave Tig 175
Reply:Originally Posted by trackbird$1-million dollars spent on all types of assorted tungsten (I have about 100 pieces of it) trying to find the magic answer to welding aluminum...the answer was practice time trying all these tungstens. It had little to do with what I was using in the torch and much to do with the idiot holding that torch.
Reply:Originally Posted by trackbirdHotrodder,You are the same place I was a couple years ago, so I'll share my experience. I had been using a mig for years (I'll hesitate to call myself a weldor considering the kind of company we are in on this board) and I purchased a Hobart Handler 210. Pretty neat little welder and I was getting pretty decent with it. But I wanted to weld aluminum and I like to try new things. I missed a Lincoln SW175 (Square Wave Tig 175) and had decided I wanted it (too late). I then stumbled into another one for sale and figured it must be a bit of fate that I should own that machine. Besides, "how hard can it be?"...lol.It's been just under two years since I bought my tig (give or take a bit) and I'm reaching a point where I'm mostly "sorta" proficient at steel and I can weld some aluminum stuff that is not only stuck together (where it won't fail for its intended purpose), but it's even occasionally pretty...at least in spots. I'm still fairly far away from building my own catch cans and radiators, etc. I haven't been living in the garage under the hood, but I work at it pretty hard for a bit, then get busy with life and go back to it. Everyone has their own learning curve. Tig has been one of the more challenging things I've ever tried to learn and I'd do it all over again. I'd just do it now knowing that not only will I not really save any money, it would be cheaper to pay someone to make the things I need. Still, there's a certain satisfaction to doing it yourself and finally laying down that first pretty nice bead.A quick run down of my rough costs:$700 Used Lincoln SW175 with 12.5 foot WP9 torch$150 assorted consumables for the WP9 torch$250+ (probably $350+ with all the parts) Weldcraft 25 foot WP17 and cups, gas lens and assorted parts$189 330 cu ft argon bottle (and a few hundred dollars in gas)$100+ Castors, steel and assorted parts to build a cart for the welder$100 for a new Jackson auto dimming helmet that allowed me to actually see the puddle.$100 for breaker and wiring to wire up the tig in my garage$1-million dollars spent on all types of assorted tungsten (I have about 100 pieces of it) trying to find the magic answer to welding aluminum...the answer was practice time trying all these tungstens. It had little to do with what I was using in the torch and much to do with the idiot holding that torch.And I need a water cooler and torch a lot more than I thought I would. ($550-$1k additional).With that said, I know I still got into tig welding "on the cheap". I learned a lot and realized that everybody is right when they say that this stuff isn't as easy as the pros make it look. I'm going to suggest that you buy a tig machine. If you think you want to learn to tig weld, I think it's a great idea. And if you reach the point where you can weld up catch cans and radiators, etc, that's a nice bonus. It can be pretty humbling. Just don't quit.As always, your results may vary. Good luck!
Reply:Originally Posted by FegenbushThe answer is red (2% Thoriated).  The answer is always red.
Reply:Originally Posted by hkstwn7Hi HotRodder, I hope you go ahead with your plans to learn a new skill.  Welding is way cheap to learn compared to some skills that require years of apprenticeship, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, and thousands of dollars worth of diesel fuel.  Go for it buddy, doing things your own way has no price.         Best, Ralph
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomDid you learn to form a ball on the end of the pure tungsten like they teach you at welding school? Many beginners do not know that.
Reply:I have to add to what Sundown said.For years I had a Dialarc HF.  Basic DC TIG machine with sine wave (balanced) AC.  I could TIG stainless just fine (I learned gas welding first so feeding rod was never an issue).One day I popped a whole in an aluminum radiator.  No problem.  Got some green tungsten.  Looked up in books to make sure I could do it with argon (no need to buy helium), set the machine up per the specs.  AC, HF on continuous etc.   Cleaned the area with DA sander and went to town.....    Complete disaster....  Either it was throwing sparks or burning through.   Bottom line, I ended up buying another radiator.Fast forward 10 years, I decided to get serious.  Wanted to upgrade the Dialarc ( - first though about syncrowave, then dynasty 200 (and keep the Dialarc for big stuff) - finally got Dynasty 350).   All I can say... man what a difference.   Some of that is education (Miller's documents, videos like those on weldingtipsandtricks, some of it just reading the owner's manual.   Bottom line, the arc starts right away, the arc goes where I want, the aluminum melts predictably, I can dab when needed etc, I can make the welds at least look good... well, look decent enough.Is it the welder or the weldor?  A little of both.  I can say that now I concentrate on improving MY SKILL vs. worrying about the equipment.  Had I the money 15 years ago, I would have gone for the Syncrowave instead.  The Dialarc was $1000 (used), the Syncrowave was pretty much $4000 (new - water cooled).  Now with Web, Ebay, Craigslist there are many more options.BTW, a decent video on TIG on aluminum can be found one weldingtipsandtricks and search the internet for HTP's TIG welding.  HTP probably has the best for actually seeing the puddle.  Note: HTP is of course trying to sell their latest inverter.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Originally Posted by trackbirdYes, I picked that up. I actually have some friends who do tig welding as part of their profession (sheet metal fabrication and aircraft fabrication) and I got some hands on training from them, read books, burned up stuff, melted things (including a WP9 torch head) and generally turned my ham-fisted mayhem into practice (or vice versa). I'm going to get signed up for some classes at a local college for the next semester and see how much I can advance with proper instruction (beyond just an afternoon or two of help). I've tried Ceriated, Lanthanated, Thoriated, Zirconated, Pure (in .040, 1/16 and 3/32, all in 10 packs) and I forget what else is laying in the box right now. I mostly use 2% thoriated and pure and get decent results. I remember having decent luck with Ceriated and Lanthanated as well, but after all that, I went back to what I had from the beginning...figures... (anybody need some tungsten? lol)
Reply:Another free tip.When you buy a TIG torch for professional work, get the Weldcraft water cooled WP-20 torchAlso get the gas lens kit with gas lens ceramic cup #6. It provides better gas coverage.You can order this torch already set up and if you Google Weldcraft WP-20-12 PROYou can find it already set up so you do not buy parts you do not need.Instead you get the HOT set up.The gas lens  cups can be added to any WP-20 Weldcraft torchWeldcraft water cooled WP-20 has been the ubiqutous torch of the TIG industry for a long time.Go to : http://www.arc-zone.com/index.php?ma...&products_id=4To see what I am referring to as the pro set up.AWS certified welding inspectorAWS certified welder
Reply:Why does it seem everyone is trying to get me not to learn the tig process??? I know that the setup will not be cheap. I was just trying to figure out exactly what functions of the machine I had to have and which were just nice to have. I know that several of you can't comprehend me wanting to learn to tig aluminum over a $150 overflow can but when you figure in the fact that I will be buying parts like this and bigger parts for the next 40 years it adds up.I also am not put off by the fact that it may will take years to become somewhat proficient at tig. It took me years to learn how to rebuild engines and trannys. The practice and learning is part of what makes it fun. If I ever stop learning then what is the point of doing it at all? I have a thirst for knowledge that is uncomprehendable to most.There is also just something about taking pride in what you do. I loved the fact that when I was 17 I took a 4 cyl. mustang and put a V8 in it by myself. It was not the prettiest car by any means, but I did all the work by myself. Personally I think if you don't take pride in what you do then you need to do something else.Thanks for the responses good and bad.LukeMillerMatic 212Mkita chop sawand a head full of ideas
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomI will tell this story one more time.About 10 years ago I was reading my monthly Welding Journal magazine from the American Welding Society.This one particular month I saw an ADVERTISEMENT saying that the 2% thoriated tungsten of which I used a lot of was dangerous to my health because it was radioactive and that I should buy this new product called lanthinated or ceriated tungsten instead.So I tried them and got poor results because the tip would degrade very quickly.I was doing production welding 6 hours per day on stainless steel weldments.Then I got to thinking about what was causing this advertising to be initiated.So I got the box of tungstens and on the side of the box was the listing of the level of radioactivity of the tungstens.I called two radiology labs at two major hospitals in the San Francisco area where I live and asked them to give me the truth about this issue.One hospital said the level was so low as not to be a threat. The other lab said the value of the radioactive level was equal to dirt.I stopped worrying about it and went back to the 2% thoriated tungstens that worked the best and lasted the longest. I still observe the normal precautions with containing the dust and having a seperate area to grind the tungstens.About that same time is when robotic TIG welding was really starting to be used for jet engine parts. I realized that maybe the Lanthanated and the Ceriated was an attempt by the robotic concerns, had not worked out very well and the ads were scare tactic ads to sell and get rid of the less desirable tungsten . There were problems with magnetic fields interfering with robot movements.
Reply:Luke,Do it! I'm surely not trying to talk you out of it. I did want to make sure you had a recent real world example from someone who did just as you wish to do. I heard the same things and it didn't scare me off either. I truly think you should chose equipment carefully and go look for deals on decent used machines. It's really rewarding to finally start to make things happen. And sooner or later, I will be building my own catch cans and such. Practice is the key.Have fun!KevinHobart Handler 210Tweco Fabricator 181iLincoln Squarewave Tig 175
Reply:Originally Posted by hotrodder_101Why does it seem everyone is trying to get me not to learn the tig process???
Reply:Alright that explains alot. Thank you DSW. I by no means want to do this the cheap way. The build will take me at best a couple years so there is plenty of time for practice. I am sorry if anyone got the impression I wanted to learn yesterday. The example you listed with the buzzbox and HF is exactly why I asked the questions to begin with. I am not looking for something that will bet me by. I want something that will do the job right. I know I still have alot to learn with the mig. I only have three months with the 212. I have some experience with a lincoln 175. I learned quick about welding outside with the mig though. Damn wind. Also I was not referring to everyone when I said that some seem to be trying to turn me off the idea of tig. Thanks Again. LukeLast edited by hotrodder_101; 01-24-2011 at 08:33 PM.MillerMatic 212Mkita chop sawand a head full of ideas
Reply:The only single real "must have" for TIG aluminum is a constant current "CC" / "Stick" / "TIG" power supply, an inert shielding gas (typically Argon, sometimes helium or helium mix) bottle/regulator/lines, and a TIG torch.  The machine may be either inverter-based (newer design, more power efficient, lighter weight) or transformer-based.But other features you should seriously consider for making the machine more useful, and vastly expanding your abilities for TIG'ing a wider variety of aluminum joints with greater control:* AC output (necessary to have the best heat control covering the widest range of materials, and the lowest cost of consumables for welding aluminum.)* High frequency or "HF" for arc starting (and on a transformer machine, also for keeping the AC-arc stable)* Remote controlled arc starting and/or current control of some variety (footpedal, or torch mounted switch / slider), with a gas flow solenoid also built into the machine (presence of "gas in" and "gas out" connections.)And yet one more tier of features fall into the "nice to have" category but not always necessary to get good results IMO:* Powerful (high current and duty cycle ratings, more EN % AC balance to deliver power to work more efficiently, torch has duty cycle rating greater than or equal to the machine)* Adjustable (the more adjustments, and the wider the range of adjustments, the better)* Portable (such as a smaller, lighter weight inverter, able to run on 120V nice as well)* Maneuverable torch (Lightweight and small torch body and cups, highly flexible torch cables)Hotrodder,Something to consider. Doing some Tig is better than none.Entry level into Tig need not be expensive , you will have to compromise though.A small 150-170 amp "Lunch Box" with no foot pedal wont cost much. I started 15 years ago with a little Essetti , an Italian piece , good welder , nice arc, scratch start, low cost , reasonable quality and could Stick if you wished.OK you don't get to weld ally, but you do get to put in seat time and gives you time to go to TAFE and learn properly from the start.Financial reality has to be recognised.You can get a flash one later.Remember that it is better to be able to do a few things with your machine to a reasonable degree than everything poorly.Also buy as many Amps as you can , amps count!Last edited by Brett; 01-26-2011 at 06:35 AM.A good guess is better than a bad measurement