Problem welding light guage stee

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Hey Everybody,So----I've been working on my 39 Chevy for a few months now and the my welding has been a challenge. Fist, trying to weld light gauge steel, 22-18 gauge with my MillerMatic 250 is, for me anyway, impossible. I tried .030, .023 wire. Changed the liner and tips, turned the gas up/down. Watched  TON of youtube videos. I could NOT stich weld without burning straight thru, no matter WHAT heat/wire speed I tried. So on the Miller forum somebody noted that they have not had good luck welding light gauge steel with their MM 200. They suggested that I try using a light weight machine such as a 110V. I managed to find a guy that was selling a Harbor Freight 170 that was hardly used. Got it home, put some .030 wire in it and started welding. When I try to stich weld, I get a lot of popping and spitting. I've cleaned, cleaned and cleaned some more. Wire brushed everything and wiped the area down with Acetone. I still get a lot of popping and spitting. I've got my welder set on MIN-1 and I've had the wire speed all over the board. I've got a video posted here:  Any suggestions are GREATLY appreciated. I'm running out of hair to pull ourThanksPat\
Reply:use the .023 wire and 75/25 if you can but alot of people would tig this due to its heat control but not all of us have access to a tig machine but id also recommend getting some copper and setting it next to the weld area copper soaks up heat also they have this jelly stuff that keeps the material cooler i will try to find a link to itheres what im refering to http://www.eastwood.com/ew-anti-heat-compound-1-qt.html thiers different companies who make this and thiers some with different ingredients so id shop around but it may helpLast edited by flux core joe; 09-09-2013 at 07:16 PM.Lincoln pro core 125 14''chop saw7 inch grinder,2-4.5 inch grinders,electric die grinder.Half inch drillAnd alot of hand tools
Reply:Are you using solid wire with shielding gas or are you using flux  core wire?
Reply:Originally Posted by flux core joeuse the .023 wire and 75/25 if you can but alot of people would tig this due to its heat control but not all of us have access to a tig machine but id also recommend getting some copper and setting it next to the weld area copper soaks up heat also they have this jelly stuff that keeps the material cooler i will try to find a link to itheres what im refering to http://www.eastwood.com/ew-anti-heat-compound-1-qt.html thiers different companies who make this and thiers some with different ingredients so id shop around but it may help
Reply:When I change from solid core to flux core on my Lincoln MIG I have to reverse the polarity.  If I forget, I get a ton of spatter.  Hope this helps.
Reply:Check your polarity.  It's very difficult to get the hang of welding thin stuff, but it can be done.  "Stitch" weld it incrementally.Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:from what I see in the movie.... first check polarity as others said second , make sure you have good groundthird, up the power till you make holes in 1 sec tacks then go back one, wire feed down till you don't feel it pushing the work start from 1/2ishmost important... try settings on scrap not on actual work--------------------------------------------------------------www.becmotors.nlyup, I quit welding.. joined welder anonymous
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeAre you using solid wire with shielding gas or are you using flux  core wire?
Reply:Forget tig, if you just want to weld on your car, mig is the way to go.  I have welded auto sheet metal for years with my MM200 and more recently with my MM251, both work excellent for this, I use 75/25 gas with .025 wire.  I would go back to your miller and ditch the harbor freight unit.  Are you sure your gas is correct, maybe try another bottle known to be good.  The only time I get popping and spitting like that is when I forget to turn on the gas bottle or run out.You need to grind or sand your metal and remove all rust and paint, mig will tolerate neither and still be able to make good welds.You are welding way to cold, turn up the voltage and wire speed to suit.  Mostly guys starting out go too slow and too cold.  Try making just a spot weld every few inches, go back and put in some more until you can grind them flat and run a bead down the joint.  You won't be able to do a continuous butt weld down the open joint because the gap relative to the thickness of the metal is too wide no matter how close you try to fit it up.  You should be doing short beads backstepped intermittently around the patch to spread the heat and prevent distortion.  I like to wipe down the welds with a wet rag to cool it down periodically when the panel starts getting too hot.Get an old piece of car sheetmetal from a wrecking yard and practice on that, not on your project car until you are confident you can do it properly.  Believe me, the sheetmetal on a 39 chev will be at least twice as thick as what they stamp car bodies out of today.Get a friend, experienced with using a mig to do bodywork, to come over and try/setup your machine to get you started on the right settings. Or go down to your local bodyshop and see how they put in patches. Video was a nice touch."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:make sure your drive roll tension is good, do you have the cable in any kind of a bind? hold it out as straight as possible. whats the condition of the tip? is your ground good? But my first guess was polarity. Like others said, once you rule out faulty equipment, get some scrap and just figure out how to dial the machine in- Christian M.C3 Welding & Fabrication - CNC Plasma Cutting-Mobile Welding-Custom welding and fabwww.c3welding.com
Reply:Hey Trophyman, ever consider mig brazing?  Supposed to be much easier to put less heat and warping into car bodies and easier to grind.  A lot of posts on it.  I've also read that ESAB easygrind is great wire for car body work.Looks too cold and/or too much wfs from the video to me.Last edited by Drf255; 09-11-2013 at 04:51 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:@ trophyman - Observations from viewing your video, * Cold welds and sub-optimal fusion based on visual/sound feedback * Panel seams appear clean and fitup goodYou're setup with 0.023 solid wire, C25 shielding, DCEP, and welding 22ga mild steel via a HF unit.  Check? As you probably already know, a cold weld indicates that your WFS is too slow.  WFS controls amperage/heat into the weld and susequent fusion.  Not voltage.  Voltage controls arc length, or cone geometry of the arc (ie. wide, narrow). However, WFS and Voltage need to set just right to obtain an adequate weld.Strongly recommend you return to BLUE and weld using the MM250.  The Miller welding parameter app shows the following for 22ga and 18ga mild steel w/ C25 shielding,22ga: 0.030 wire, 90-100 ipm, 15-16V, 40-55A18ga: 0.030 wire, 150-175 ipm, 16-17V, 80-90ATraditionally, '39 Chevys and other vintage cars were built with 16-18ga CRS metal. OEM. If your panel is indeed 22ga, then you'll have to base your parameters on the 22ga material.  Aware that lots of body men run 0.023/0.025 solid wire.  Wanted you to know that 0.030 wire will work.As others have mentioned, if your polarity & gas flow are correct, the root cause resides in the WFS (amperage) and Voltage (arc length) settings.  Be sure to determine your WFS, at a given V, by pressing the trigger for 6 sec -> measure wire length out -> multiply by 10 -> to arrive at a WFS in "ipm". Not sure how your HF unit adjusts WFS & V, but assuming they're discrete (non infintesmal) settings.Before running more attempt on the actual panel, dial in your settings on a spare 22ga piece of sheet metal in the flat position. You need to be able to lay down clean beads before proceeding to vertical down and horizontal over joints.  Aside from stitch welding the Horz and Vert joints, any lengthy vertical passes should be welded down. Not up.Not an expert body dude, but have run many:many beads on various thicknesses of sheet metal via short circuit MIG.Good luck and let us know how you progress!Last edited by ManoKai; 09-11-2013 at 06:33 AM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Two things I notice, as mentioned the sound says wire feed slow, burning back braking the electrical circuit.  Do not shoot for the gap, try to start on one side of the gap, and drag across to the other side. I like 030 cause it is less porn to shoot through the gap creates a bigger puddle. I'd first leave the heat where it is and start to add some feed speed. Is the feed pressure set right ? Blue says to arm the torch at approx. 45 degrees to a piece of wood, tighten the feed roller so that the wire will curl up and not stop when it hits the wood Second the metal looks dirty, I suggest that you scuff the welding area. To steel bright at least 1 inch each side of the crack,  80 grit very light pressure, just want to polish not remove the metal.  Get the ground close to the welding area.  Just some things to check or think about. I had similar problems when I started out with sheet metal. Learned the process is a bunch of tacks all over the place until it forms a beed. Running a beed on sheet metal is not the way to go, that will distort the area quickly, resist going to fast. I have seen but as of yet tried to get a round of tacks laid out. With gaps, from one to the next. Then grind/sand those smooth, hammer and dolly the areas smooth. Then another set of tacks repeating grinding and hammer dolly action until  all welded up. The end results hardly any body filler was needed, just a skim coat.It is totally a doable process, the secret was letting the metal cool and continually working it flat. I am just waiting to have a chance to try it. I understand what was being done and why, hell if I was closer I'd come over just to try it... LOL Do not get discouraged keep plugging along you will start to get results faster than you may think, one of the nice things about welding is that you can always add more metal with the welder.go here :http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...=182565&page=9 This is a master sheet metal man, look at post 177 & 178 you will see what I am trying to put into words. Look close there is a lot of information to see that words cannot express, enjoy. BTW all mig welding.Magazines have issues, everything else has problems
Reply:you say you changed tips,but are you using a 023 tip for the 023 wire ? also your tip is at quite an angle to the work with a long stick-out. get it closer to 90 degrees and a shorter stick-out.miller thunderbolt 250vlincoln square wave tig 175 prolincoln idealarc mig sp250everlast tig 210EXTeverlast power plasma 50chicago electric (hf) 130 tig/90 arcchicago electric 90 amp flux wire3 sets oxy/acet
Reply:I'll start with this one. Originally Posted by boatbuoyyou say you changed tips,but are you using a 023 tip for the 023 wire ? also your tip is at quite an angle to the work with a long stick-out. get it closer to 90 degrees and a shorter stick-out.
Reply:Originally Posted by ManoKai@ trophyman - Observations from viewing your video, * Cold welds and sub-optimal fusion based on visual/sound feedback * Panel seams appear clean and fitup goodYou're setup with 0.023 solid wire, C25 shielding, DCEP, and welding 22ga mild steel via a HF unit.  Check? As you probably already know, a cold weld indicates that your WFS is too slow.  WFS controls amperage/heat into the weld and susequent fusion.  Not voltage.  Voltage controls arc length, or cone geometry of the arc (ie. wide, narrow). However, WFS and Voltage need to set just right to obtain an adequate weld.Strongly recommend you return to BLUE and weld using the MM250.  The Miller welding parameter app shows the following for 22ga and 18ga mild steel w/ C25 shielding,22ga: 0.030 wire, 90-100 ipm, 15-16V, 40-55A18ga: 0.030 wire, 150-175 ipm, 16-17V, 80-90ATraditionally, '39 Chevys and other vintage cars were built with 16-18ga CRS metal. OEM. If your panel is indeed 22ga, then you'll have to base your parameters on the 22ga material.  Aware that lots of body men run 0.023/0.025 solid wire.  Wanted you to know that 0.030 wire will work.As others have mentioned, if your polarity & gas flow are correct, the root cause resides in the WFS (amperage) and Voltage (arc length) settings.  Be sure to determine your WFS, at a given V, by pressing the trigger for 6 sec -> measure wire length out -> multiply by 10 -> to arrive at a WFS in "ipm". Not sure how your HF unit adjusts WFS & V, but assuming they're discrete (non infintesmal) settings.Before running more attempt on the actual panel, dial in your settings on a spare 22ga piece of sheet metal in the flat position. You need to be able to lay down clean beads before proceeding to vertical down and horizontal over joints.  Aside from stitch welding the Horz and Vert joints, any lengthy vertical passes should be welded down. Not up.Not an expert body dude, but have run many:many beads on various thicknesses of sheet metal via short circuit MIG.Good luck and let us know how you progress!
Reply:Those look goodMagazines have issues, everything else has problems
Reply:yes,you are correct. i was seeing 45 degrees or so in the video--not perpindicular--and a very long stickout .miller thunderbolt 250vlincoln square wave tig 175 prolincoln idealarc mig sp250everlast tig 210EXTeverlast power plasma 50chicago electric (hf) 130 tig/90 arcchicago electric 90 amp flux wire3 sets oxy/acet
Reply:What you may want to look at is your wire lead if it is 6 feet or 12 from mfg'r. Many came with 12 foot leads, change it. I have worked in bodyshops that had Millematic machines and we had to change the leads over and replace consumables and rollers, the nozzles also take alot of abuse from dropping and short out making it seem like other problems, as they are friction fit instead of screw on. Use .030 for plug welds, .024 for everything else. Myself I have T/A 190 and it welds sheet metal better, as it seems like it is a tighter machine. Tig is not always practical, so fit up has got to be good, try not to grind to heavy handed or with a 36 grit conditioner disc. Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4
Reply:Originally Posted by trophymanSO---am I correct in assuming that when I adjust my wire feed speed, I'm not just speeding up or slowing down the speed at which the WFS motor spins (which is exactly what I thought), but I am, in fact, increasing or decreasing the amperage output of the welder as well?  The HF unit suggests for 20ga steel: MIN/MAX switch set to MIN. One or Two switch set to 1. Wire speed set to 5. After playing with the settings and making test welds I came up with MIN/2 WFS 9 and I could stich weld on a piece of scrap the same as I'm using for the patch. AND I didn't even bother to clean the scrap!
Reply:Originally Posted by pistolnoonWhat you may want to look at is your wire lead if it is 6 feet or 12 from mfg'r. Many came with 12 foot leads, change it. I have worked in bodyshops that had Millematic machines and we had to change the leads over and replace consumables and rollers, the nozzles also take alot of abuse from dropping and short out making it seem like other problems, as they are friction fit instead of screw on. Use .030 for plug welds, .024 for everything else. Myself I have T/A 190 and it welds sheet metal better, as it seems like it is a tighter machine. Tig is not always practical, so fit up has got to be good, try not to grind to heavy handed or with a 36 grit conditioner disc.
Reply:Guaranteed the magnet was hurting you. I try my hardest to never use them unless I run out of hands, and after a quick tack or two it comes off. One thing I notice with some guys here, and most of the car guys is they take no pride in there fit up. Fit up and prep is everything to solid welding and clean up. I have car guys in my family so I see it all the time, so i'm not nit picking on you bud but it's true. That panel looks like a puzzle piece for starters, completely cuck eyed, Boooo! You over ran with your wizz wheel when you could have avoided that if everything was marked and planned correctly, double Boooo! And heat loves to eat corners for breakfast, esp on thin sheet, no place for it to run accept right THROUGH the corner. Triple Boooo! With tomatoes flying now. I notice with car guys that they will booger a panel together in twenty minutes and then grind and do body work over it for the next eight hrs and kick back with some friends after and drink beers while they pat you on the back and tell you how awesome you are. Until I show up and murder you in front of your friends! Kidding on the last part bud  What i'm getting at is put as much time and prep into your fit up as you would with your body work, and watch how much smoother and easier the whole overall projects go. I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:A good way to tell if your 15 foot lead is problematic is run out of a few inches of wire then pull it and see if their is any substantial play,their will be, then go change to a six foot lead. Their just is no way you can run. 024 15 feet with precision. You may have to get down and check your nozzle tip relationship with stock parts, you don't want the contact tip flush with nozzle, you want it back about 1/4 ", it keeps molten metal from shorting out the tip with nozzle or worn nozzle from my experience. Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4
Reply:Also Miller does make a dedicated spot welding tip, if you also doing some spot welding, it allows you to push two panels together with the gun, the nozzle has metal extensions every 90 degrees so you can see where the tip is while pushing on panels your welding, and best. Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 4