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So i bought a diversion 165 for the prupose of some basic car stuff, but mostly to learn the art of tig welding. I set everything up, and just went at it. Im warning you what your about to see is not pretty lol.... all critisism is welcome, and feel free to laugh at it lol cuz i was chuckling when i saw it too haha.Im using:Diversion 165. Setting was between 90-120 amp AC. 3/32 tungsten20 CFM 100% argon flowi guessed the aluminum pipe i used was about 1/8 thicknesswiped down, then stainless steel wirebrushed the metal first with a dedicated brushObviously im doing alot of stuff wrong here lol... so let the bashing and critisism begin! but please pointers and help would be nice too lol
Reply:Post some pics of tig welds on mild steel. If you haven't tried ms first then you should go back and start there first.
Reply:Could be alot of things going on here...Are you using filler or just playing with the torch by itself? Aluminum needs to be welded with filler. Make sure your filler wire is not oxidized. Wipe with acetone.Make sure your tungsten is clean and sharp. If you dip it, re-grind it. Keep your tunsten stickout length to a minimum. Keep your arc length as short as possible, no more than 1/8". Don't lift the torch off the work during the weld, this contaminates the weld. Don't withdraw the filler rod from the gas flow between dips, this contaminates the weld.Quit lingering around, move the torch along and dip as you go, or you get the blown out mess you have there.Turn the machine up, use the pedal, stomp it to get the puddle going then let off and weld. Spending too much time heating it up just overheats it and makes a mess of it. When the aluminum turns shiny, it's hot wet and ready to be dipped into.If it gets way too hot, dip the rod and let off the pedal.Last edited by DesertRider33; 05-09-2010 at 01:33 PM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:You can wipe it and wirebrush it all you want, but if you dont grind off that anodizing first your never going to get anything accomplished.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:thanks guys for all the tips so far. im gonna grab some sheets of different metals and try thati wasnt using much filler in any of that, was just playing with the torch, didnt realize you cant do much with AL with no filler.
Reply:Tim 1137,because the puddles all look like they sagged below the surface, I'd say there was more amperage added than the parent metal could 'move'. If the puddle sags -reduce pedal or slider/wheel.Next I don't think beginning to work on annodized material is the easiest. I suggest you work on scrap plate or sheet that you can clean with acetone first and then abrade the area you will weld with a SS 'toothbrush' just before each bead. To D'Rider's great check list of items I'd add that it won't hurt to degrease the rod with acetone THEN pull it through a Scotchbrite (TM) pad to descale and heavy oxides that may be on the rod from storage.Last, I think it would be a good starting point to set your torch hand to get your arc gap, light the torch and add pedal or torch control just until the metal wets. At the point the parent metal 'wet's' (which is harder to see clearly under an anodized layer) then lift the torch just slightly to establish your puddle size. Now thumb in some rod in the 5:30 or 6:00 O'clock position low to the parent metal, If the puddle bulges up round topped? you're a little cold for the filler size. If the puddle is a flattened disk things are getting off to a good start and if the puddle is hollow, cool OFF right away and move along- you're dropping through!Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:thanks for the advice all, im gonna uy some sheets and start off there, ill post pictures when i do it.where can i go and buy sheets of metal? home depot?
Reply:Hey Tim1137,Your primary concern to learn TIG welding would be to take a vo-tech or college class to get a basic understanding of welding & all the associated parameters of fusing metal. I see all you youngsters/newbies post your queries continuously on the forums & expect the experienced weldors have you doing 1st class work after a couple of sessions with a TIG torch in hand. Not gonna happen if you don't invest some time into learning the myriad of metal configurations that apply. You all think that it is so "cool" to TIG weld & want to produce those artistic "dime" welds that those who spent years to develop & excel at & do regularly, & you think you can do it after a couple hours of seat time. Not gonna happen. Invest some of your valuable time into your own knowledge base first....practice as much as possible second, & third, learn from the best tool.....your mistakes.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Tim a week ago I was in your very same shoes and today I am stacking dimes and welding pieces together with real gusto. Everything you need to do has been answered. I get my scrap steel from a local machine shop. I told them what I was doing and they gave me a bucket full of cut offs and odd shape pieces of cold steel. I found a sign shop ;that uses alof of alum angle and odd shape pieces and spoke to the night shift mgr and told him what I was learning to do and he gave me a bucket of new cut offs. I am now ready to build something and went to a local salvage yard and bought some scrap allum plate and some heavy duty angle. I am building a winch plate for my comm fishing boat to help with some of the weight and save my back for another day. The scrap plate cost me 1.25 per pound. I picked up some thinner coupons for thin alum weld practice while I was at it. With me being a complete new tig'r I can say that pay attention to the tungsten and keep it tight to the material. Now that you have messed with alum go to steel and you will make some big steps. Once I worked on steel everythng came together for me.RandyLincoln Power Mig 300 with PythonLincoln SquareWave Tig 255 Hypertherm Powermax 45 HH120 w/argon
Reply:Originally Posted by yorkiepapHey Tim1137,Your primary concern to learn TIG welding would be to take a vo-tech or college class to get a basic understanding of welding & all the associated parameters of fusing metal. I see all you youngsters/newbies post your queries continuously on the forums & expect the experienced weldors have you doing 1st class work after a couple of sessions with a TIG torch in hand. Not gonna happen if you don't invest some time into learning the myriad of metal configurations that apply. You all think that it is so "cool" to TIG weld & want to produce those artistic "dime" welds that those who spent years to develop & excel at & do regularly, & you think you can do it after a couple hours of seat time. Not gonna happen. Invest some of your valuable time into your own knowledge base first....practice as much as possible second, & third, learn from the best tool.....your mistakes.Denny
Reply:Originally Posted by Tim1137thanks for the advice all, im gonna uy some sheets and start off there, ill post pictures when i do it.where can i go and buy sheets of metal? home depot?
Reply:unfortunately i dont have the time or money to go to a class for this, and this is for my own personal use only, i have no intentions of making money or going into this feild, so id rather learn on my own. obviously im not gonna get good welds going by tomarrow night, im very aware this takes hundreds of hours of welding to just become proficient. and thats what i plan on doing
Reply:Originally Posted by Tim1137thanks for the advice all, im gonna uy some sheets and start off there, ill post pictures when i do it.where can i go and buy sheets of metal? home depot?
Reply:Tim1137, here are some puddle images that I drew while holding a similar discussion with another learning aluminum TIG welder.These pictures don't show the cup but they show your tungsten and filler. THE PURPOSE OF THESE SKETCHES IS TO CONVEY AN IDEA OF HOW TO ORIENT THE ELECTRODE AND THE FILLER.I realize that there are many more ways to do this weld, and I appreciate the images are a little simplistic, but lots of guys need to have a picture of this basic set up -not a video- so the principles are set in their minds.In this view tungsten is the silver dome ended rod to the upper right, and one pc of parent metal in an outside corner fillet is yellow edged. A filler rod is a small tan colored cylinder coming in from the left to the 7:00- 8:00 O'clock position of the first 'wetted' or melted puddle- which is gouged out in blue. The arc cone is kind of greenish blue cone reaching from the electrode down to the parent metal.The longer the arc cone -the wider its base or wider puddle and the less gas will cover the weld. If you keep lifting at one point the gas will not cover the puddle and the first sign is a black scum swirling on top of the puddle. That means you need to narrow the puddle by closing the tungsten to parent metal gap so you reduce gas loss and concentrate it on the puddle area.Here the edges of the parent metal are pink (vertical pc) and green (horizontal pc) and the two shoulders of the parent metal are just melting. This is the same image but form above, closer to our sight picture when welding but still; this would be covered by the gas cup.This is the same model just viewed from the 'back' or behind the direction of travel of the future weld. Notice that if the rod is kept very low angle to the puddle that if the HiFreq 'runs' to the rod it will be longer than if it goes to the parent metal? that might not be true if the rod were up in the air so keeping the rod low an feeding at the wet leading edge of the puddle if very important to correct AC TIG. (most TIG)There are two electrodes here, one is darker than the nearest and represents a slight back movement in the puddle. There are several step move and feed movements already in this weld- dimes as some of us call them. What is happening is once a wet spot or molten metal is established; a small UNIFORM amount of filler is fed into the puddle and a tiny backwards C or G or lower case 'e' is performed with the electrode to make sure the entire puddle is fused and continuous (not cold lapped) to the previous puddle. By feeding a uniform amount of filler and keeping the torch movement of each step uniform you create both circumstances for a 'row-of-dimes' looking weld.Keeping the tip of the rod under the gas shield- shown as the arc cone but in reality is over the arc cone, then the tip will remain cleaned and when rod is added you avoid an overly oxidized tip and the black floating scum that results.Same model from below and behind your hands, showing the weld resulting from the two movements. When torch goes into the C/G/e in preparation for a step forward- a uniform amount of filler is 'thumbed' into the lower front edge of the puddle. As the torch comes out of the back step/backwards C into the next movement that amount of filler is fused at the pause before the next uniform pair of movements.Last, from the top the amount of filler partly controls the size and shape of the puddle. But this is only 1/2 (or less) of the puddle shape control. If the bead is bulging up, not smoothly transitioning into the parent metal then the rod is not fully fused; add heat/amperage and decrease rod length.If the puddle top is hollow (on THIS weld) then reduce heat and increase the length of filler. This overall set of rules of thumb are not intended to explain all there is to know, just to form a sight picture to help the discussion about learning TIG in aluminum. I know there are many other aspects of the subject not shown or included, but the purpose is a very limited scope of TIG basics.Tim1137, I hope these will help you begin to form the picture in your imagination of what you want to be doing as you TIG aluminum?Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Tim1137,These images are to make a beginning explanation of one of the basic ideas of aluminum TIG, and I assume could extent to steel and SS? Hopefully the steel pro's will comment here to help you refine their own methods?Here is TomTIG, without ANY safety equipment or hood! This software does body modeling and I'm not very adept at working in Poser- so the models are not very sophisticated.Tom has his torch in underhanded grip so we'll have to assume a pedal or thumb wheel control (?), and his filler in a Thumb Feed grip. Thumb is back on the rod which is lead between the ring and middle fingers guided to the puddle.Zoom in on Tom's left hand with thumb back, keeping the off-hand steady is no small feat. I'd say keeping both hands steady could be the main obstacle to many peoples' progress with TIG. I usually lock up my torch hand with a prop or the weld material if I can.When I teach TIG I use a series of pencil-on-paper exercises; tape a pencil on the torch and make small uniform moments along a line on paper. I'd suggest this for hours of practice, and you can't rest the pencil on the paper- the patterns HAVE to have some repeated LIFT or skip in the movement traces. If you can't do that- it won't be any easier to to with a lit TIG torch in your hand!Back to Tom TIG's right hand. His grip is just now tightening on the rod in preparation to moving a uniform amount of rod into the puddle's leading (wet) edge.Tom's Thumb is closing toward the guide fingers and the rod is advancing into the puddle. I find that practicing this with the off-hand for hours BEFORE welding makes this more manageable. I suggest you take some dip rod, and thumb it through your fingers with a TIG glove on, many countless times. In the first few days, your hand will ache but if you keep at it- you'll become reflexive and that is the point of muscle memory you'll need to weld like you want.Here the Thumb stroke or feed stroke is almost done, and the position of the two hands is IDENTICAL but the rod has advanced evenly and a fixed distance into the puddle.End of the feed stroke or 'dip' of rod into the puddle from the top view.The images here show thumb feeding, many others hold the thumb loosely on the rod and pinch the rod between the first and second finger- then extend those curled fingers as their feed stroke. I'm sure there are other methods too, but the point is: everyone who's good- adds a uniform amount of rod length each time.By keeping torch movement uniform, and feed uniform the puddle has a CHANCE to be uniform. If you add more filler or less, if you add that filler out of rhythm to your torch movements then weld uniformity is almost impossible.After looking at these images- TomTIG's rod is way to high and angle, and he has no torch position lead/lean/pattern. I'm trying to show the idea of a filler method that produces consistent feed as that is super critical to uniform TIG.Hope this helps you to practice methods that will bring you to your goal. Sometimes when we just practice without an exact idea of what we need to be trying to do, we develop poor welding habits? This surely isn't the only way to TIG weld, and isn't applicable to all welds, but is provided here to help form a mental image of one technique that will help develop TIG consistency.I hope the more experienced TIG welders here will help describe more clearly other exercises you can do to help your skill improve.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:thanks for putting all of that information up Kevin.I'm practising on SS, not ready for aluminium just yet, but have a couple of questions.I started by using a lower case e motion but not in the fashion you describe. Mine was just a forward motion, similar to weaving with stick welding. This was the motion shown to me by an aquaintance who professed to have a B ticket. I later learned that he didn't have a B ticket and really knew nothing about TIG welding. My results were quite poor. After watching some tig videos on Jody Colliers site, it seemed he does a straight line step and pause motion only, no backing up, no side movement or circular movement. I changed to this type of motion and got better results.Would you recommend switching to this lower case e , C or G backwards motion for my tig welds in SS?Also, in some instances when starting a weld, a very bright 2 or 3 second yellow light is created that makes it impossible to see the puddle forming. Setting my shade darker is not the answer as once the puddle is nicely formed this extra light is gone, then with the shade set on 12 or so it is too dark.Any idea what might be causing this temporary blinding light?GlenLast edited by worntorn; 05-11-2010 at 02:33 PM.
Reply:worntorn,I'm not recommending the patterns, if the torch is held steady with a good even arc cone size and gas coverage then stepping does a similar process.What is slightly different is the freeze rate of aluminum compared to steel or SS. Because alum. move heats away from the puddle faster by 7X than steel, the inline step motion with aluminum usually requires just a little higher amperage than needed to keep the puddle- this isn't true in steel/ss. to the same extent.So in aluminum that back sweep or small circle can help toe and top fusion but the same result can be achieved by holding a 1/16" or so longer arc length, and that will increase the amperage and therefore wet the toe and top.What happens in some cases, however, is that weld is a little too hot and you end up sagging into the parent metal more than you'd like. Last about aluminum is the hi freq- which will 'run' to the rod so redirecting it for a second is helpful to 'sneak a dip' under the gas envelop edge and without sticking the rod to the work with a blast of hifreq.I find the auto-darkening hoods, I use the Optrel, all have some delay before they change to block the arc light. That delay may be what is causing the bright light?Also, make sure your pre-purge timer is up for a few seconds to make sure you're not lighting up in the air but are lighting the arc when the tungsten is in the argon envelope? If you don't have gas covering the weld the arc is not shielded, you'd get odd coloration, toast your tungsten and contaminate the first puddle.Cheers,Kevin MorinLast edited by Kevin Morin; 05-11-2010 at 03:34 PM.Reason: "typoes"
Reply:My first try on my diversion looked exactly like that. Steel was a little better, but left blobs of metal on the surface. My first mistake was that I was watching the arc and not the puddle form. My second mistake wasw that I was holding the electrode way too far above the workpiece. My third mistake is that I didn't know how to "drive" the puddle along the joint. and how to make sure it puddled up before I dipped the filler. I then figured out that my auto dark helmet was flashing me so I couldn't get a good view of the weld puddle. When I went to a conventional hood I got a lot better.Ok after I did all those things, and I learned how clean the welds needed to be, then I started discovering how easy it is to dip the electrode, or touch it with the filler. Then, when I solved that problem, the welds started to look better. Slowly slowly slowly. Now I can get a good weld about 75% of the time when everything is perfect. Change positions, not clean metal, or anything else wrong, I go back to the blobs. It takes a lot of time. - I've done about 25 hours now - half on aluminum, other half on steel.I found a welding class at the local welding supply house. It's not cheap, but well worth the money.
Reply:I checked out my auto darkening helmet yesterday, it seems to work every time.It might be that the bright yellow light occurs after I forget to hold the torch over the end of a weld for post flow cooling. I'm guessing that when I start the new weld on this contaminated end the bright light is from the crud burning off.I do have a bad habit of sometimes lifting the torch as soon as the arc shuts down.The problem could also be the preflow as Kevin suggested. I'm not sure how to determine whether that is as it should be. Preflow is not adjustable on my machine and is set at about 1 second.Just to be sure about the helmet I'll try with a non auto one today and see if I still have the problem.GlenLast edited by worntorn; 05-12-2010 at 10:59 AM.
Reply:Thanks for the pic's Kevin. This and watching is how I learn. I can read and listen to someone all day, but with no pic's or first hand viewing, I screwed. That's one problem with a lot of the TIG videos. The view isn't good or it's too dark.Thanks for posting!Bert200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:Kevin as a new TIG'r I really do appreciate your response and pictures. Thanks a bunch. Do you have any similiar pictures of welding pipe to flat. I am in the process of learning to do this on my own and having difficulties with electrode angle and filler angle. I practice welding everyday for at least three hours on my work days and twice that on my days off. I would like to practice rightThanks again.RandyLincoln Power Mig 300 with PythonLincoln SquareWave Tig 255 Hypertherm Powermax 45 HH120 w/argon
Reply:worntorn,I didn't mean to suggest the helmet won't change to dark glass- I was suggesting there is a very tiny time delay that might leave you with a little sunglasses level 'flash' that seems yellow for a few seconds afterward? Kind of like a flash bulb in the face - a little while after that our eyes readjust but for a minute there's a spot in our vision.The contamination idea is valid as well, if you don't wait out the puddle back out time as you diminish the weld power you're asking for suck back and crater cracks in aluminum AND steel. IF you don't let the post purge 'huddle' against the work while you post purge then with longer stickout you could cool the electrode in air instead of cooling while under the gas shield.If you don't have a pre-purge timer (?) what about popping the pedal/trigger/wheel once on&off while the torch is in the up or off work position? Then the post purge time would be running while you brought the electrode down to the work and lit up? this is a way to get pre-purge- using the bump start to begin the after weld timer for a gas flow solenoid.bert t/w you know the old saying about a picture being worth lots of words. One other thing that images help to convey is a snap shot or still frame freeze so you can talk about every aspect of that instant. This is helpful to me too, that is why I try to illustrate my posts, if possible, so that the idea can be shown to others not a dependent my poor writing and their fast reading. Most of the welding videos I've seen are not as instructive to me because you have to move to weld, so to discuss THEORY of where to move- I'd like things stopped.[I hope everyone reading our posts recalls that these are THEORETICAL images to discuss the target we're trying to reach or our aim point?]Netman, what are you welding steel, ss or aluminum? I don't have anything done for an inside fillet but they don't take all that long to do, I'm a 'Miracle Metal' type of guy so my aluminum is likely more useful than my ss/steel work.Are you butting a pipe (90 deg) to a flat plate? Or laying the pipe parallel to the plate?One thing I can say is the setup and images would be a little bit different for the iron vs alum. images but I'll give them a try if you'd let me know what we're welding?Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Kevin I am looking for aluminum pointers. The pipe is on the flat like a circle inside a square [o] view. I am going to fab and weld up a half cab for my aluminum plate boat for winter fishing. ThanksRandyLincoln Power Mig 300 with PythonLincoln SquareWave Tig 255 Hypertherm Powermax 45 HH120 w/argon
Reply:netman,there are a couple of things we can agree on without images of a weld technique.One, if you have an inverter then I'd suggest 2% Ceriated (orange) tungsten ground to a point and flattened a little at the end. If you have a transformer machine- they weigh 500-800 lb usually - then pure tungsten with a dome of ball as I show in my illustrations is fine.Next I'd put the cup into the space of the fillet weld at about 45 degrees so the top and bottom of the cup touch and then move the electrode out until its about 1/2 the distance cup to groove or seam between the pipe and plate.If the weld you're carrying floods this space and chills into a high domed weld you'll contaminate but the cup doesn't have to be touching to weld. This is just a stick-out gauge. The reason is that in flat welding or outside corner welding as I've shown above the cup to tungsten tip is closer than if you're setting up to do an inside corner. The next item is balance and high frequency. If your power supply has an adjustable high frequency; inside corner/fillets are the place to set that value as high as you can. This works to focus or narrow the arc cone, shown in my sketches a greenishblue translucent cone off the tip of the electrode. If your power supply allows that value to adjust- crank it up to max.Balance is also adjustable on some TIG power supplies. Balance is the amount of time in one cycle of AC the wave is positive or negative. I won't go any farther along this line unless your machine has a balance control? If it does (?) find out the minimum and maximum values on the controls, because they're not uniform between welding machines.Last is the gas flow, are you using a lens or not? IF you are, the gas can be down to 3-5 ft/hr and if not then 5-8 ft/hr when doing inside fillets. These have to be nearly double for outside corners, or flat butt seams so I'm noting this difference between gas flow and seam type.The reason is gas huddling is increased by the nature of the joint - acting to keep the gas over the weld longer requiring less gas and still cleaning and shielding.Now to test the set up. Put the torch at 45 into the joint and fire up, with a few seconds of pre-purge so the arc lights under gas not in air.Add pedal/wheel/slider to increase amperage until the puddle will wet. If needed, lift the torch angle up to aim down at the plate; that surface is a better heat sink than pipe wall so it will take more to get 'wet'. If you max out and don't get a puddle- turn up the power supply; repeat until you can light up and get a puddle on room temperature material in a few seconds. If you can get a puddle in a one or two count at Max pedal/wheel/slider then you're likely set to hot and will end up pulling down the heat constantly during the weld. If you get the puddle at full or nearly full control in a three count, that's a good beginning.I tend to set the power just behind or below the amount of amperage that will make the puddle fast in any mix of cross sections so I can use the top of the control as a stop. Others prefer to max their machines and make all the control local at the torch during the weld.Aim down until the plate is wet, then roll the torch top down to focus the arc upward onto the pipe wall which will wet immediately (shed. 40). Very low angle on the flat plate slide in a thumb of rod and just as you do make a slight rocking motion with the torch so the hand stays the same location but the torch aims back very slightly. This movement is small (1/8" max electrode TIP movement) and helps to wet the first puddle's back edge with filler.As you come back forward or roll the torch back toward the direction of travel; the lower edge of the cup can be on the plate during the transition. This can help steady your torch hand; cup walking.As you step forward your torch hand will scoot slightly on the parent material or steady rest if you've rigged one? The just as you get ready to thumb in more rod make the same very small movement back and forth, some guys use a tiny circle or G or e -all the same effect. IF you're running 1/4" onto 1/2" with a 300 A weld and 5/32" tungsten then the shape is larger, if you're running 130 A and 1/8" tungsten on 1/8" that movement is proportionally smaller too.It can't be stressed enough how small those movements are and they always stay inside the puddle not like whipping 5P, 1/2" long or big aluminum MIG whips.If the bead is not uniform between the pipe and the plate then consider dropping the lens, if you have one on, and going to a narrower cup to get the arc length down shorter. Get the tungsten closer to the weld bead face if the bead is not wetted top and toe. All the while keeping the filler nearly flat to the plate and at the lead edge of the puddle. Inside fillets may need to be fed at 8:00-9:00 O'clock instead of the lower 6-7 O'clock you can get away with on the flat or outside corner where the material falls away and gives access that you don't have with and inside fillet.Most guys I know actually use the tip of the filler down close and at a low angle to help give a steady signal to the off-hand. By just rolling the feeding wrist down a very slight amount you can keep a low tension on the rod as it slides into the puddle. This works to do several things that I find helpful.One the tension of the bow in the filler rod keeps you from lifting the rod allowing HiFreq to melt the rod end, and that goes double for the gas flowing out from under the cup. Second this small tension becomes a feedback signal for your hand to steady the off hand and last it helps to meter the feed into the puddle as you can feel the rod resistance drop away when the arc cone wets the toe of the weld puddle.Can you give an example of the problems you're having with this weld?Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Kevin, yes, I misunderstood your first suggestion about the helmet. Today I went back to the old helmet and still had a couple of the flare ups. They do seem to be related to contaminants. On one occasion I purposely lifted the torch without allowing the postflow to cool the end of the weld and got the bright light on startup. Looks like using proper procedure will make this problem go away!Also, pre weld flow purge is more like 2 seconds, rather than 1 as I mentioned earlier. This seems to be adequate. Your suggestion of hitting the switch or pedal once before bringing the torch up to weld works great to give additional pre flow should it be needed.I've included a photo of a weld I did a couple of days ago on some 3" .065 wall SS.to go all the way around, I found it necessary to stop and start this weld about ten times for positioning. Is this the typical way to go about this type of weld, or should I be attempting to do continuos or at least much longer welds by moving my postion while welding?Also, the fillet portion of this weld is concave. Should it be flat across the top? (but at 45 degrees +-)thanks Attached Imagesworntorn,I'm not the best SS TIG hand so let's hope we have some imput from the guys who do these welds all day?First, the joint prep is a big deal in a weld like this. If there are gaps or feather edges you're making problems for the weld's consistency. So the saddle needs to be nice and tight, looks like it was, and the two legs/points of the saddle need to be sanded back to the thickness of the tube wall for best/uniform results. If you leave a feathered edge the puddle gets wider by the melting tube wall material balling up, and the consistency is harder to keep.Next; without a positioner to roll the joint- very few welders can free cup AND free elbow this joint. I can't free elbow any weld, and don't even try. At the very least I stand off with a finger on one hand or the other, lots of times the back of the wrist. I have enough difficulty getting good welds with a steady rest for my hand(s) let alone working to become free cup and free elbow.I jig or mock up a steady rest for welds like these, and that includes an electric roll-out wheel or weld positioner. The positioner doesn't have to be powered to be helpful. Any two pieces of concentric pipe will give a socket that can tack to the table and a shaft inside on which a small plate platform can be tacked @ 90 deg to make a weld positioner. This method allows you to set up rests in one quadrant and weld that 80-90deg of the joint- them rotate 180 and do the same weld on the opposite side.Now roll back and do one of the missing quadrants that were skipped in the first two 1/4 welds and then close. Starts and stops become more the focus once you start getting more and more uniformity.Also the torch should be doing a very slow roll in this weld to keep the angle of the arc fairly close to radial. At the top of the saddle on both sides, where you're concave on the weld face, the torch is more or less 45 to both pc. but at the toe and top leg points the torch is 90 to the long pipe and to the saddled stub. I'm saying the torch would go from 45 degrees to the two pipes to 90 degrees (roughly) and that is added to your overall movement along the weld path's steps.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Kevin and others. Here is my recent alum pipe to flat weld. This is about my sixth try at it. I was able to progress better after reading Kevins reply to me. I am using 1/8 2% ceriated, 3/32 filler, about 8cfms and around 110 ampsRandyLincoln Power Mig 300 with PythonLincoln SquareWave Tig 255 Hypertherm Powermax 45 HH120 w/argon
Reply:netman and worntornI've sketched a rest scheme I use all the time, not identical because I'm using other fixtures as well, but the idea here is to get steady as possible and get a good weld bead: then move up to free cup and free hands or whatever level you want to go.This is pipe post positioner - just the idea. A blue collar of pipe is concentric to the green (2-1/2" green and 3" blue?) and a stop collar of blue above. The stop/top collar can be drilled to pin at different levels to give some vertical adjustment. Furniture clamps can be made into a forest of different combinations and give a steady rest- if they won't tighten? sand the pad where the clamp and spray 99 contact cement and dust them with sand and they'll get some grip. Also sticky back sand paper will give them more traction on the other pipes.There are many other ways to get a steady rest for these welds but they are all worth the effort.The platform is a 6"x 1/4" plate with a ground lug and I'd clamp all work to that tan plate.In this case I'd use a visegrip along the tangent of the green tube to the tan plate so the angle stays the same.Your torch wrist or forearm, lays on the cross clamp's pipe and the rod hand can do the same- there are countless positions here and I've only tried to model one.more viewsI find I can tighten the various clamps into a decent position in a fairly short time, with some fiddling they stay and if I keep the wt on them small, steady rest not support completely, they will aid in keeping better control while your reflexes come along.Weld the blue collar to the bench (?) and use a pipe wrench to turn the pipe when needed? You could put all sorts of different parts and pieces together to help you work, this is to explain the idea not be plans for a positioner.In this sketch I'm trying to show the access of the torch for a 1/4 circumference bead beginning at the tangent to the run pipe. This would be uphill to begin and that will make the hollow bead worntorn showed earlier a little easier to keep more full as there is a little sag to uphill.The torch head curve path is sort of approximated by my sketch. (?) I've rolled the torch and hope you can just set up something like this and practice rolling the wrist on the clamp's pipe and keep the torch in the weld area at a good radial orientation while still leading and keeping good and uniform travel and bead.same weld different viewanother view to help confirm any positional questions?these last two welds would be the 3 and 4th quarters of the pipe and I've shown a 90 degree orientation of the set up.If you can stabilize your hands more you can reach consistent welds sooner than if you continue to have puddle inconsistencies due to hand control. The longer the welding 'arm' the harder to control.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Randy, I think there are several factors here that need attention.#1 The two parent metal's are not the same thickness and that makes torch work harder, I'd try to get some 1/8" plates so the two sections are closer in thickness.#2 The feed of rod is not consistent so I'd spend time feeding rod without the torch or welding. You need to practice to 'thumb' (dip) in the same amount of rod each time. That rod could be smaller for the weld size but they become harder to feed, so setting the filler add length with your fingers should help you make a uniform puddle.#3 The torch is traveling unevenly, and again this can be practiced without welding. Put a short pencil stub on the cup with tape and make uniform patterns or steps along lines - I've done it for hours- didn't hurt my welding.I'd weld this in 1/4's unless I had a rotary positioner. #4, I'd want a smaller bead here, sharpen the tungsten and get closer to your weld, maybe a smaller cup ? and add less filler. You may also back bevel the pipe end to reduce the amount of pipe wall you need to heat to fusion.Also - you chose about the most difficult weld to practice!!!! I'd suggest working some straight fillet coupons or even some flat stuff for a while? Have you made any "dime plates" ? Just take four or five 4" squares and weld lines along them til they're hot, set that one aside and run a row of dimes on the next?I think its worth time BEFORE you tackle this weld- continually moving the torch in small pipe is about as challenging a weld as I can think of.....Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:thanks once again Kevin, loads of good information here. I have to go over it a couple of times to absorb! It was good to read your suggestion re grinding back the long sharp cheeks of the coped out pipe; as you describe I had great difficulty with this area on the first couple of tries. The long thin taper melts back very quickly and at best a very wide weld is formed here, at worst a blowout is created. On the tee joint in the photo, as an experiment I had ground those edges back a bit, maybe not as much as you suggest, but enough to get rid of the paper thin section. The result was a much improved weld in this area. Today I read your post which confirmed this as the way to treat that part of the joint. Sometimes given enough time one can stumble on the solution, but generally it takes a very long time to learn this way and many finer points are missed!
Reply:Kevin , thanks a bunch for this help. I have been making 'dime plates' for a week and thought I would move onto something else. I want to practice for some projects I am about to take on with my commercial fishing boat. I am very green at this and thankful I am getting some good help to practice the right way. I will make some more pipe/plates over the next couple of days and post some pics.Thanks againRandyLincoln Power Mig 300 with PythonLincoln SquareWave Tig 255 Hypertherm Powermax 45 HH120 w/argon
Reply:Randy, I'd also suggest backing out more slowly. Reduce the pedal to almost a minimum arc and stop moving, KEEP THE ARC, but don't move- let the puddle chill upward from the bottom.Then just as the crater changes color or surface from wet to solid, add 1/4 the amount of weld heat/pedal and wet up one puddle- thumb in a final cover and let that cool and freeze under the arc with gas. This is "backing out" and as I looked at the example beads I noticed some fairly prominent chill points that will lead to crater cracking.Its very important to back out slowly and top off as you do, this will also be a way to tie in the size and shape match for the beads you tie into as you close a weld into a previous one.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Kevin, I've done some more welding putting your suggestions into practice and the result has been very positive. After a couple more welds I'll post some photos.I have a question re argon flow rate; my TIG calculator shows 11 cfh for the welds I'm doing. Jody Colliers suggests 15 cfh as a good general number for most tig welding up to 125 amps and I believe I have seen other numbers as high as 20 cfh quoted as general purpose flow rates. I've been using 15cfh with a gas lens, mostly welding the .065 304 SS at about 40 amps.You mentioned that Netman's 1/8" aluminium fillet weld could be done with as little as 3-5 cfh using a gas lens and 5-8cfh without. My Miller TIg calculator shows 17 cfh for all types of tig weld on 1/8" aluminium.Do we really need this extra 460% of gas (17cfh vs 3) or is the Miller Calculator way off base here?And does SS require more or less argon than a similar thickness weld in Aluminium?Glen
Reply:Glen,this may be another case we find so often in remote communications where we need to have more facts to hold a really accurate discussion.I'd say everyone needs to "get on the same page of the Hymnal" as the old saw holds sound advice.First the final cup size has to be known because we might have a larger straight cup than the outlet nozzle of a lens- that would mean the gas could cover more in the non-lens cup. But..... if the lens were the straight sided so the cup is 1.5x or 2x the size of the non-lens cup then the lens covers more area.....Also, gas flowing out of the straight cup is not 'flow conditioned', gas flowing out of a series of screens is more evenly diffused and therefore is more even over the entire cup 'face' or nozzle.Next, a larger cup will cover more area so the 'cleaning' and atmospheric exclusion is greater if that were all that effected cover gas flow's action.So if we only consider these two items then a lens is better gas coverage than a straight cup - so we can reduce the flow and get more than adequate weld quality.The combinations of cups and torch access are not considered above- just gas flow conditioning and area of coverage or spillage footprint onto the work. Low speed, wide area gas slowly laying on the work is better use of the gas than higher speed gas.But those two base facts are not all that is happening at the weld face. Flow rate is the speed of gas traveling out the cup, and faster flow creates more turbulence and reduces the effects of cover gas by swirling some atmosphere in with the cover gas.So lenses not only make the flow more uniform across the cup's opening; the lower flow rates mean the lens allows gas to be 'slowed', helping the gas to 'huddle' as the term is used by welding engineers of days gone by. This reduced turbulence is part of the gain of a gas lens to improve cover gas performance.Now you have to add (more variables): Angle of the Torch inclination and Cup to Work Gap, associated with electrode stick out,and Shop Air Currents.If the torch is too close to the puddle in reference to your line of sight you have to lean the torch back to keep the top and toe of the weld in your sight picture- that spills gas away from coverage; now you have to add gas flow rate/volume to compensate.If the torch is too high up you will need more gas flowing out of the cup nozzle because the gas diffuses as it leaves the cup outward and the higher you are the more gas needed to get a given coverage.[An example of these features is to light up with any gas flow and lean the torch until the weld gets a black film (beginning with a clean, shiny, wet topped bead). Then do the same test by pulling upward slowly - at some point the gases around the cover envelope will flood in and these turbulence induced contaminants show up first a series of black/dark films swirls on your previously clean molten puddle.]Drafts in the shop make a big difference to cover gas too. Any of these two factors torch position or shop air conditions will require more cover gas.Now, I said all that to say- if we're going to get down to gas flow we'll need to make sure we're discussing similar items/facts/conditions/variables- or this will go around and around the point.What parent metalWhat gasWhat flowWhat exact cup What electrodeWhat amperageWhat cup htWhat weld configurationWhat filler access angle (torch relation to weld)What overall torch position to weldWorking in aluminum, I use Argon and Argon Helium mixed, both gases have slightly different properties and I set flows a little lower for the mixed over the pure.I use between 5-10 cfh of both gases for 90% of my welds which are on 1/8" or thinner 5086 or 5052 and 6061-6063 aluminum alloys. I use 10-13 cfh for welds up to 1/4" of the same alloys and that is with a small collet body (5/8" diameter lens housing) lens and #6 - #8 cup and up to 1/8" ceriated, thoriated and pure tungsten.At 5/32" tungsten I move to the higher flows 13 cfh and then move to the large body (1" diameter lens body) gas lens- when access allows- to accommodate the larger gas coverage I'd like but keeping the flow as low as possible in velocity to reduce turbulence.With all that said- what happens when you're welding a T saddle butt joint in 1" 6061-T6 hand railing joints? You may want to use a gas lens but getting one into the joint means the tungsten will have to stick out nearly 6-8 diameters where the saddle is TDC of the run pipe? The lens cup is too wide to allow the electrode down into the joint without hanging the tungsten out in space- and that tungsten will be outside the gas envelope if you transition from the TDC saddle (narrow sided joint) to the toe of the stirrups - where there is virtual no side walls to confine/huddle gas flow!What I do is use a straight sided cup that with an increased gas flow and make the transition with 'too much' gas in the saddle's confines and stay low and slow as I move out to the open sided tips of the joint.Its all a related rate- as everything in all welding is.IF you have a 5/8" body lens collet and use a reduced #6 (3/8" cup) with 3/32 or even 1/8" tungsten in that same joint you can get very good welds at lower gas flows. The reason is that the narrow lens body cup, with a tapered nozzle allows the cup into the tight part of the joint and the better flow characteristics of the gas from the lens will better cover the more open 'flat' end of those welds than many sized straight cup flow patterns.You question isn't really served by a nice one line answer- but I hope to have reviewed a few of the variables?All factory advice is based on their set of criteria. turn the gas down and improve its slow flow as much as possible. When the welds contaminate or show degradation - add some gas back. Use as little as your weld bend break testing will show as adequate purity and strength.test test testCheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Sorry Kevin, should have included some more info in my earlier post:My gas lens is the small WP 9 size, cup is size 6, tungsten is 1/16th red, amps generally in the 40 to 50 range DCEN on ..065 wall 304 SS. Filler rod is 309L .045 or sometimes .065 309L. I'm in a well insulated draft free shop and have placed a 2' square sheet of plywood between the welder and the area I'm using for welding practice. The welder is sitting on my weld bench about six feet from where I'm welding. The cooling fan on the welder is quite strong so I thought it best to shield the weld from that turbulence.Weld types are varying, but at the moment I'm mostly practising the tee joint we discussed above.The variables you describe in your last post all make perfect sense to me and I suppose I did have kind of a fuzzy understanding that more stick out required more gas and so on, however the concept of the low speed flow covering the weld better than a high speed more turbulent flow hadn't occurred to me. I was thinking of the gas flow as something that had a minimum flow requirement but thought a higher than needed gas flow, while wasteful, had no adverse effect on the weld quality.After reading your post, I can see that is not the case. I cut the flow down to about 6cfh and while I can't see any improvement in the weld from this, there appears to be enough gas to cover things nicely. It will sure make the cost per hour go down for the argon. Makes me wonder why a gas lens isn't standard equipment on all tig torches.I suppose the only disadvantage of the gas lens vs the standard collet body is the fatter diameter of the gas lens cup at the proximal end.When I cut the flow down below 6cfh point I noticed the tungsten was blue at the very tip after finishing a weld. With 6 cfh the tungsten changed back to completely silver in color.thanks again for all the good adviceGlen
Reply:The pictures in the first post of this thread are gone... so to provide some more laughs, here are my first tig tests.#1... forgot to turn the gas on #2... turned gas on, but brand new flowmeter was set to almost nil#3... works much better with gasTries #4 through 7 not as entertainingly stupid...#8... starting to resemble a weld. Unless you are really bored, there's no need to critique yet. I have a list of things I know I need to improve on, obviously, since I'm about 24 inches in, so far.__David Hillman
Reply:Either you are welding left handed or going backwards with your right hand. Which is it?Two turn tables and a microphone.
Reply:Mine won't even strike an arc if the gas 'aint on..This is a old thread.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by PangeaEither you are welding left handed or going backwards with your right hand. Which is it?
Reply:All I can say is.........................Holy Cow batman.....lol At least your on the weld joint..... Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Tig welding is just like learning to drive a car. After 50 miles of driving a car, you'll start to get the hang of it. Same thing after 50 miles of tig welding.
Reply:50 miles, wow that's a long bead......... Hmmmm lets see that's 88,000 pieces of filler rod @ 3 feet ea.sounds about right.......Last edited by B_C; 04-13-2011 at 03:22 PM. Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:28:25