Welding 1/8 steel square tubing with a stick welder

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Hi guysI'm brand spanking new to welding. I want to put together some square tubing but it keeps burning through unless I move so fast it's like writing with a pencil, which makes me worry about proper penetration. Heres what I'm using:Miller Maxstar 200 (borrowed, lol. I can't pay 2k for a welder)Hobart 6011 sticks, 7018 sticks. I've tried with the welder at 140 amps and that's where I can get it working at 'writing speed' without too much burn-through, but it seems like that's still too burn-y. My practice was on 1/2 plate so this is entirely new for me. Any tips are appreciated. I'm just a little frustrated. Some of my "fun"I've been filling them in as I get themAnd grinding down the mountains of metal
Reply:Get some 3/32 7014 and drop the amps to about 70-80Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Borrow a MIG machine...Miller Dynasty 200DXMiller 252 Miller 250xMiller Syncrowave 250Miller AEAD200 LegendMiller 375 Xtreme plasmaLincoln WeldPak 100Victor O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by AKmudBorrow a MIG machine...
Reply:Originally Posted by BurpeeGet some 3/32 7014 and drop the amps to about 70-80
Reply:X2 on cutting the amps.And yes, GMAW would be a better choice. But if SMAW is what you've got, you have to make the best of it. Thinner rod, less power.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanI'll give that a shot tonight or tomorrow (depending the kids schedules) and see. This is for a trailering vehicle so it needs to be strong. Will the 7014 be ok for that?
Reply:The 7014 is fine when done right.You need to cut up the crap you started with and burn up 15 or 20 rods to get the feel of the thin stuff.Once you got it, you got it. Don't play with the puddle. Go in steep, nearly flat and pull if across the first few tries.I'll post a pic after lunch on some 1.8 mm (.070) with a 1/16 7014 @ 55.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanI'll give that a shot tonight or tomorrow (depending the kids schedules) and see. This is for a trailering vehicle so it needs to be strong. Will the 7014 be ok for that?
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveDoes not really matter what rod you use - your welding is not good enough to use on trailers or related items that must be safe.Unless you mean trailering around the lawn behind a riding mower.Sorry to be blunt, but don't put poorly welded stuff on the road.
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanyes, this will be on the road.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPWhoa! Baby steps first!
Reply:this should be good.  tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:7104 1/16, 1.8 mm box tube +- 55A. Bead aint much bigger than the rod.61 y.o. welder, blind in one eye(seriously)-can't see out the other and likely half tanked  Attached ImagesLast edited by Burpee; 11-04-2013 at 01:41 PM.Reason: blurryBubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Hi, Jason.Not sure what kind of trailer you plan to build with 1/8" tube, but I can tell you that is not heavy duty enough for more than a few garbage bags. Without a lot more practice I would not want the liability of those welds on a road trailer.There are a lot of guys that will come down hard on a newby building a trailer. I think if the trailer is properly engineered and you can produce good quality welds, you probably will be more conscientous than some of the trailers I've seen from the factory at the big box stores. Still, you have to be a competent welder and it does not appear that you are at this point. Burpee is right, just cut up what you have and use it for practice until you are much more experienced.There are a lot of good guys on here that will be happy to help you develop the proper skills. Post pictures, ask questions, and pay attention to the vast knowledge and experience that is available to you. You can update your profile with your location and hopefully there will be a member close by that can give you some one-on-one instruction and help you improve.Please understand, no one is bashing you, just watching out for our families and others that may be injured on the road from a poorly made trailer.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:thanks guys. This isn't a "trailer", but for trailering. It'll be a tow behind wood splitter. the main weight it will have on it is a gas engine, a 50 lb cylinder, a 20ish pound hydraulic tank, and a 8 foot I-beam weighing probably 100-120 lbs. Say 250-300 lbs soaking wet. Still I want it strong enough to use and give to my kids when I'm gone. I'm big on pictures so as soon as I can I'll get some of the 7018 up. And I'll grind off all the current welds. That's going to be fun  Where's my earplugs? What's that you say?
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanthanks guys. This isn't a "trailer", but for trailering. It'll be a tow behind wood splitter. the main weight it will have on it is a gas engine, a 50 lb cylinder, a 20ish pound hydraulic tank, and a 8 foot I-beam weighing probably 100-120 lbs. Say 250-300 lbs soaking wet. Still I want it strong enough to use and give to my kids when I'm gone. I'm big on pictures so as soon as I can I'll get some of the 7018 up. And I'll grind off all the current welds. That's going to be fun  Where's my earplugs? What's that you say?
Reply:5/32" 7018 and 6011 at 140amps on 1/8" steel?? You need to ask the owner of the welder to explain what is going wrong and if the welds you made are road worthy.  Please cut it all up for practice pieces.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:7014 is very easy to run. I'm just not impressed with it's impact properties. But it still passes a bend test. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPug5/32" 7018 and 6011 at 140amps on 1/8" steel?? You need to ask the owner of the welder to explain what is going wrong and if the welds you made are road worthy.
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanthanks guys. This isn't a "trailer", but for trailering. It'll be a tow behind wood splitter. the main weight it will have on it is a gas engine, a 50 lb cylinder, a 20ish pound hydraulic tank, and a 8 foot I-beam weighing probably 100-120 lbs. Say 250-300 lbs soaking wet. Still I want it strong enough to use and give to my kids when I'm gone. I'm big on pictures so as soon as I can I'll get some of the 7018 up. And I'll grind off all the current welds. That's going to be fun  Where's my earplugs? What's that you say?
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanthanks guys. This isn't a "trailer", but for trailering. It'll be a tow behind wood splitter. the main weight it will have on it is a gas engine, a 50 lb cylinder, a 20ish pound hydraulic tank, and a 8 foot I-beam weighing probably 100-120 lbs. Say 250-300 lbs soaking wet. Still I want it strong enough to use and give to my kids when I'm gone. I'm big on pictures so as soon as I can I'll get some of the 7018 up. And I'll grind off all the current welds. That's going to be fun  Where's my earplugs? What's that you say?
Reply:Originally Posted by grumpycricketHeh, that wouldn't kill anyone if it fell apart on the road ... said no one ever!!! If you want to fab via stick weld, try 7018, as was mentioned. Run beads on flat stock in the flat position. Do this until your confidence is high, and your beads are perfect! Then post the pics on WW for critique. In the interim, don't fabricate anything faster than a welding bench.
Reply:One of my first projects was a welding table with square tubing and I experienced the same thing. Some of my welds looked a lot like yours but some were much better, even when running the same amps. I was using 3/32 6013. I finally figured out that it was the arc length that was kickin my butt. When you start getting blow thru, it's intuitive to back away and increase arc length but that actually produces a hotter arc. Once I figured out that I needed to keep the rod tip closer my welds got a lot better.My welding table probably isn't safe for highway use either, but I didn't have to cut it up and scrap it.
Reply:I have welded a lot of 2x2x120 tubing with 1/8 7018 rod the deal is you're not good enough to do that yet so doing an on road project is currently beyond your capability...being blunt about itPractice practice practice  Rome wasn't burnt in a day and don't give up it takes time to master hell i have been doing so much wire feed work i would have to run a few practice beads just to get back into itBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old TruckHi Jason, where are you located ? I'll come over or there maybe a member near you  that could help. Here's MILLER stick welding  Calculator. http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...calculator.php
Reply:I'm about 800 miles SW of ya BD1. Can you make it out tonight? Seriously though I appreciate the offer. There are alot of great members on here. You don't see friendly faces much anymore. I'm in central OK. Thanks for the calc. That sucker says I should be at 110 minimum for my 5/32 6011 rods, but the rod case says min is 140. I wonder if I dial it back to 110-120 if it'll stick instead of welding?
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanI'm about 800 miles SW of ya BD1. Can you make it out tonight? Seriously though I appreciate the offer. There are alot of great members on here. You don't see friendly faces much anymore. I'm in central OK. Thanks for the calc. That sucker says I should be at 110 minimum for my 5/32 6011 rods, but the rod case says min is 140. I wonder if I dial it back to 110-120 if it'll stick instead of welding?
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanI'm about 800 miles SW of ya BD1. Can you make it out tonight? Seriously though I appreciate the offer. There are alot of great members on here. You don't see friendly faces much anymore. I'm in central OK. Thanks for the calc. That sucker says I should be at 110 minimum for my 5/32 6011 rods, but the rod case says min is 140. I wonder if I dial it back to 110-120 if it'll stick instead of welding?
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1I'll leave tonight. If not there by mornin just start without me.    You gotta get 3/32'' or 1/8''  6010 and run on DC. If you don't  and want to rough it, run it downhill real fast ! Too bad you're not closer.
Reply:Practice makes perfect dont be fooled that E-7018 is a must . I would get 1/8 E-7014 and pratice on thick plate working towards thin plate , little rods are hard to learn on. Tubing steel is not high quality in thin sizes and can be hard to weld and dirty degrease please do not use brake cleaner it will kill you! !!
Reply:The guys have already mentioned your rod size is way too large and your amps too high to do 1/8". Even with the right size rods and the correct amps, getting good strong welds on 1/8" for what you want to do will not be easy. Welds that are good enough for a welding table or cart is one thing, being able to make code quality welds for something to be dragged down the highway is something completely different.A lot of new guys seem to think thinner material is easier to weld than thicker material for some reason. In reality that is seldom the case with stick. 1/8" material is maybe 3 to 4 times harder to do than say 1/4", and if you go thinner it gets even harder. That's because you don't really need to worry about blowing holes in thicker material on average. That is not the case with thin stock.So you have thin material working against you. Next you have a but joint. Getting good penetration on but joints isn't easy. There's a reason the tech school leaves but joints as the last joint in the weld progression we do. There is a fine line between getting enough penetration to go all the way thru, and having too much and blowing big holes in things.  Grinding a bevel on the pieces will help some. It reduces the amount of material you need to blow thru to reach the bottom and still leaves you with some material to act as a heat sink. With 1/8" though you don't want too much of a bevel or you'll have issues. I wouldn't take the material thinner than 1/16". With thicker stock like 1/4", at least you have more material to act as a heat sink as well as enough material that when you bevel, even if the root isn't perfect, often you have enough "meat" left that you can get a weld with some strength. With 1/8" you get all or nothing usually.Fit up also plays a part in this. Tight butted joints are the hardest to get good penetration on, but when you add a gap, now you have a void you need to bridge as well as two edges that want to melt back quickly. Irregular gaps, tight in one place and wider elsewhere plays havoc with most new guys. You simply don't have the experience to adjust your weld technique on the fly and adapt to the changing gap. Next you have that knife edge on the outside of your miter joint. You've taken thin steel and made it even thinner. Any gap is a recipe for disaster as the moment the material opens up at all it will suddenly blow wide open. Grinding off the knife edge and making a V with the bottoms butted tight will help solve this issue.Last issue would be out of position welding. It gets even harder to do welds on thin material if you need to weld in something other than the flat position. At your level rotate the pieces so all your welds are done flat vs vertical or overhead.Right now there is maybe 6-8 students learning stick at night on Tuesdays at the tech school. With about 30 hrs of weld time under their belt, I don't think any of them are at the point yet where they are ready to do their 1st 3/8" bevel but joints with a 3/32" gap. Most are still on flat lap joints or T joints and still have outside corners to do before they get there at a minimum. Almost all of them are still fighting undercut issues due to arc length.You simply need a lot more weld time under your belt. This really isn't a project you are ready to tackle yet with your experience. As mentioned get some scrap and do some welds and post up picts of your practice, along with machine used, rod size and amps, material thickness, position ( if not done flat) etc and we can help you learn. I'd suggest starting out running beads on flat plate 1st to get the basics of rod angle, arc length and travel speed down.  I'd recommend working with 1/4" or thicker vs 1/8" to keep things simple, but if you want to do everything with 1/8", go ahead. After that, do some beads that overlap 50 on the previous ones. Next would be lap joints, followed by T joints and then outside corners... That's the progression we use to teach welding at the tech school. Each task builds on the last one. Flat beads get you the basics. Overlapping beads gets you ready for joints and gives you the most "bang" for your buck as far as material for practice is concerned. Lap joints add an edge, but with more mas to act as a heat sink. T' joints move to an edge with no heat sink. Outside corners gives you a V to fill. Now you have two edges with no heat sink and you have an inside edge that needs to be hot enough to melt thru without blowing holes. Last are the beveled butt joints. Now you have a gap to deal with. You need to have enough heat to melt thru well and get full penetration, but not so much you blow holes in it. Once each student gets done and signed off on each joint, they move on to the next one. When they are done all their flat joints, they move on to horizontal joints and do the same progression all over again. It's an overly simplified version of what they have to do for stick, but it's good enough for now..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Hey Jason,After reading your post, I tried some 3/32" rod on some 14 gauge square tube. I started at about 70 amps and had to move up to 85-90 amps.I'm not a very good stick welder, but this made a good joint. Hope that gives you some more information to help.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:5/32 rods should never be used on 11 ga. That being said, I agree that 3/32 7018 is by far the best rod to weld 11ga. Instead of welding completely flat try putting a shim under one side ( like a 5/32 rod) between the table and the steel and start your weld from the low end that way gravity will help with your puddle. Kinda like welding uphill but almost flat. Just a little trick that may help. Should set it at about 75-85 amps. One day you'll say dang that was easy stuff, I must have been crazy to use 5/32 on that!Miller trailblazer301gLincoln sa200Miller251Miller spectrum 625Victor oxy-acc2002 Chevy duramax 3500 dually 4x4
Reply:Just a little update guys. Thanks for all the tips. didnt have time to get it out today but I'll get some laid tomorrow.I have 900 kids (seems like) so free time is stolen, not scheduled
Reply:Good news guys. The 3/32 rods didn't blow through at all. And they welded up nice (to my untrained eye)What do you guys think? Don't count that crap running up the left in the second pic. It's from the old rods.
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanAnd they welded up nice (to my untrained eye)What do you guys think?
Reply:Thanks Cep, but that's not helpful. Maybe you could be detailed so I could learn instead of just feeling stupid?
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanThanks Cep, but that's not helpful. Maybe you could be detailed so I could learn instead of just feeling stupid?
Reply:proper fit up is must,  other wise you will enlarge your gaps considerably, as your burning through,   if you have a no cut edge, up to a cut edge, put your heat towards the no cut edge, and then just whip over to the cut edge and pull it in to the puddle. and then there is a method that one can use to weld two cut edges, and that is to flick out ahead of the puddle and then back again it is a motion kinda like striking the arc,  but you do not let the arc stop,   and keep it moving, and once you have it together a light grinding and the reweld it over the top now that you have a base to work also in the future consider a thicker material you may find it much easer to weld,  at least it will work for you a little easer,Last edited by Farmerboy; 11-06-2013 at 03:45 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPYou need help, and your not going to get that kind of help via the Internet! If you can't see you didn't bridge the gap, you need to head to the eye Doctor!
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanLOL! Ok, I get it now. This was to show the bead, not the bridge. I didn't have much time so I ran the first bead on two spots. Tonight I'll run one on the opposite sides, then one in the middle. The point was that it didn't burn through.
Reply:Those look much better than the first set, they don't look like it was just melting steel uncontrollably. Before wasting the material doing joints work on build a pad of beads on a piece of steel. All the peck marks tell me that the slag was hard to remove and the overall look of the welds give me an idea that you are probably holding an arc that is a little too long. What are the new 3/32" rods, 7018, 6013, 7014..? With all of those you can usually drag the electrode on the steel so you don't have to worry as much with holding a length. You don't need to whip most rods, the common rods to whip are 6010 and 6011.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugThose look much better than the first set, they don't look like it was just melting steel uncontrollably. Before wasting the material doing joints work on build a pad of beads on a piece of steel. All the peck marks tell me that the slag was hard to remove and the overall look of the welds give me an idea that you are probably holding an arc that is a little too long. What are the new 3/32" rods, 7018, 6013, 7014..? With all of those you can usually drag the electrode on the steel so you don't have to worry as much with holding a length. You don't need to whip most rods, the common rods to whip are 6010 and 6011.
Reply:2/3 of welding is proper fit upBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd112/3 of welding is proper fit up
Reply:When you trade up, you will need to get an adapter for your acetylene reg to match the new cylinder valve. Be sure you take the adapter off the cylinder and keep it with the reg when you exchange cylinders in the future.If you are doing your cuts for fit up with OA, you might want to think about a saw of some sort, even if it's  a simple hacksaw. Most guys can't cut well enough with OA to have decent fit up with out a lot of grinding afterwards..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:For working with tube, I'd buy one of each of these, wait I did.  Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPittmanThey're 7018s. I'm sooo happy with them vs the 6011's. I've got the heat set at about 90 amps and my little "fine tune" dial turned to about 30. Some of my starts are still a bit sticky (rod sticks) and the smaller rods seem to drop the coating alot easier (Hobart brand) but overall I'm very pleased. You guys give great advice. Special thanks to wb4rt for running a test and getting me at the right temp range!
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWWhen you trade up, you will need to get an adapter for your acetylene reg to match the new cylinder valve. Be sure you take the adapter off the cylinder and keep it with the reg when you exchange cylinders in the future.If you are doing your cuts for fit up with OA, you might want to think about a saw of some sort, even if it's  a simple hacksaw. Most guys can't cut well enough with OA to have decent fit up with out a lot of grinding afterwards.