MIG vs. Stick penetration.?

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Hey guys.. I'm still hangin around.. Been a busy boat season.. Got plenty more hood time in with the Dynasty and that's all comin along good. Now a new project has popped up for me to tackle with some non-critical steel welding on a coupla cargo trailers. Material will mostly be .250-.375 mild steel with very occasional .500 in the mix. Since there's a good bit of work to be done, we wanted to try out the Trailblazer/Super S-32P MIG setup on it. But there seems to be a question amongst ourselves and the cat running the op down there about the penetration differences between a MIG setup and his stick unit. As I understand the job there's mostly 2G & 3G (vertical & horizontal?) work involved. The LWS recommended using Lincoln Dual Shield .045 for the task and stated that that was the equivilent to using 7018 stick on a spool. I may have unintentionally left some info out and may have to get more/better specs. But wanted to get it out here and see what I might be able to find out. If there's already a thread a link would be appreciated. Thanks..    d:^)  Schneeks..ESAB 161 LTSCommunicate & adapt, diggit.?ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Reply:No expert here but sounds like you're comparing apples and oranges. Your "cat running the op" stated MIG (GMAW) and your LWS is proposing Dual Shield Flux Core (FCAW). The little bit of heavy plate I've done on .045 Dual Shield with the Lincoln wire had excellent pen. And I say excellent because that's what our CWI said after my bend tests. Maybe your guy is thinking about 3G down with GMAW?Don't see how you can go wrong with the FCAW as long as you run it right. I personally prefer SMAW but that's just because I think I lay down better welds with stick. The flux core can be a much faster process if you have a lot to do.But again, no expert. I'm sure the guys with lots more hood time will chime in.Just my $.02E
Reply:I prefer SMAW on that size of steel.  I know the job could be done with FCAW or MIG, but why bother?  You have the possibility of damaging your gun and will be spending time making sure not to step on it and keeping it straight.  Unless there is enough welding to justify the PITA factor, SMAW is the way to go.  If this in a shop setting wth clean steel and a good work space, my opinion may be different.To answer the original question, you can penetrate just as well with MIG if it's setup correctly.
Reply:Originally Posted by jmtebbensI prefer SMAW on that size of steel.  I know the job could be done with FCAW or MIG, but why bother?
Reply:I definitely wouldn't choose hardwire mig for material that thick. Get a 10lb spool of Lincoln outershield 71m (dual shield) wire and try it out, it's awesome stuff. Look at the datasheet and see if your welder will realistically be able to run .045". All you have to do it change your polarity and run knurled drive rolls so it doesn't crush the wire.Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:I think you'll like the .045 dual shield. It runs nice, penetrates well, and looks good when the slag comes off.
Reply:AFAIK the Lincoln and other FCAW wire is a tubular wire, which has a possibility to gather moisture if out of the pack for too long.  This will result in "worms" in the surface of the bead.An Italian company called Fileur makes an EXCELLENT seamless FCAW wire.  Anytime I have welded with their seamless wire vs a similar tubular wire the seamless wire outperformed in weldability and the way the arc behaved hands down.  Fileur is a newer company so I doubt any LWS will supply them.  See if your LWS has any seamless FCAW wire for you to try vs the tubular and I bet your welder will prefer the seamless.  Euroweld has a nice stock of Fileur wire if you want to try them out, it is the only seamless wire I have come across recently.  You probably know this but vertical up is the way to weld FCAW.Also the seamless wire will not gather moisture or any other nasties if it sits out, so you do not have to worry about those damn surface worms.Hope this helps.TEdit:  Another thing about the Fileur wire is it looks exactly like a E70S-X spool, I've mixed it up with one before while TIG welding for a little suprise.
Reply:As said either process will give you plenty of penetration if done properly. I've got a friend who welds 1"+ all the  time with both solid wire mig and stick. He can get similar results with either process and uses them pretty much interchangably in the field. This is all work on heavy overhead cranes, so quality of the weld is very important and all the beads are checked.I'd use the process you are most comfortable with myself. For me that would be mig. I can produce better welds with that process and make better time as well..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by Mu-TAFAIK the Lincoln and other FCAW wire is a tubular wire, which has a possibility to gather moisture if out of the pack for too long.  This will result in "worms" in the surface of the bead.
Reply:The difference is mainly in speed, and to some extent set up time. But when you know that you favor one process over another, then it makes sense to stay with the more familiar process. However, if you have enough work to justify setting up with dual shield, I think that would be the process with one of the highest deposition rates. They say heavy industries don't use much solid wire.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:MIG vs. Stick penetration.?Completely identical.
Reply:Clean metal & indoors I would use FCAW, because of speed.Worm holes from my exp. is from too high voltage setting for the wire speed.Leo
Reply:Originally Posted by NVWClean metal & indoors I would use FCAW, because of speed.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWCurious statement. I'd have voted for solid wire and gas inside with clean metal. Outside and/or with dirty steel, I'd have voted for FC.
Reply:Ok with dual shield that makes sense. I was thinking regular flux core for some reason this morning..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:With your setup and the material, I would weld with either .035 or .045 hard wire and not look back.  You can't beat it for speed and you have the equipment needed to run it hot enough and long enough to really get the good out of it.If you have never run .045 hardwire you will be amazed at the penetration.
Reply:Thanks much for all the responses, fellas.. Looks like there's "more than one way to skin a cat" as usual. No real right or wrong to it. Job got put off till first of next week so I'm gonna go out and play with the new gear and LDC wire today on some home projects to see what comes of it..  Keep'em comin..    d:^)  Schneeks..ESAB 161 LTSCommunicate & adapt, diggit.?ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ