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Here are some preliminary results - just running some beads with four different 1/8 inch diameter aluminum electrodes.Hobart Aluminum 4043Forney 4043 AluminumFire Power Aluminum Arc Rod (Thermadyne)Blueshield MNR Lite (Air Liquide)The weld beads were laid on a 1/4 inch thick aluminum plate measuring about 23 inches long by 6 inches wide. You can see the transformer-based (AC 220 amps/DC 140 amps) welder that I used in the background. Amperage adjustment is continuous by means of moving a lever up or down against a printed amperage scale on the machine's front panel.I was welding across the plate, laying down three short 1.5 inch beads at 70, 90 and 110 amps (approximate). For each brand of electrode, I laid the three different amperage beads, first at room temperature of 78 F (C) and then repeated the process with a 200 F preheat (H).As you can see, the four different electrodes produced similar results - all rather crappie looking! Disclaimer: Tricky starts, like sticking the rod, long arcing and avoiding a big blob at the start made it a challenge to develop any sort of smooth flow deposition in only 1.5 inches of bead. Slag covers everything so I couldn't see the weld pool well - that made travel speed a guess and resulted in some rather high weld profiles due to traveling too slowly.Maybe... one can see a few 'nice looking' beads?Cold Hobart at 70 amps - but the bead was rather high and proud and this doesn't show well in the picture... so while it looks 'nice', it really isn't.For all the electrodes, the better beads were obtained with 200 F preheat and 110 amps. Preheat helped lower the weld profile and also helped maintain the arc with changes in arc length.Here's a close up of the last beads made at 70, 90 and 110 amps with Blueshield MNR Lite (Air Liquide).I think the higher amperage 110 amp beads look better.However, in general, I felt most the weld beads looked 'cold'. The manufacturers' recommended amperage for 1/8 inch aluminum electrodes is 70 - 120 amps.Note: I didn't calibrate my transformer-based welder so I can't say for certain that the scale indications of 70, 90 and 110 amps were accurate.Do these beads look 'cold' to you? Maybe I need more amps?Last edited by zapster; 07-22-2011 at 09:21 AM.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:No offense Rick... I applaude your ambition to do these "tests", but you still haven't learned to weld! I haven't really seen a "good" weld of any sort from you yet. That sort of makes these tests worthless. The beads look too iregular to draw many conclusions at all from where I sit. You need to concentrate on improoving your welding skills 1st. Your attention to detail on these tests is laudable and I applaude you for it. Now take that same attention to detail and learn to weld. If you could weld 1/2 as good as some of the better posters, these tests would have some value. Right now all you are doing is putting metal on a plate.Take one rod, say 7018 or 7014, and start at the begining. Run plain beads on plate in the flat position until you consistantly get a nice bead. Them lay another bead centered on the at the root of the 1st, overlapping 1/2 of the 1st bead and do that until you get nice beads every time. Then work on lap, T's outside corners and but joints in that order, again doing it over and over until you can do that joint nice every time. Then do the same procedure all over again with the plates in the horizontal, vertical and overhead positions. Then do it again, but change the heat settings a bit hotter/colder so you begin to understand whats going on when you change settings. Yes it's slow and boring, but thats how you learn to make good beads. When you are done with say 7014, go on and repaet the whole series again with 7018 or 6011... If you have really learned anything the 1st time thru, this should take less time to master... Then move on to the next rod and so on..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:No offence taken DSW... BUT... I'm dealing here with stick welding with aluminum electrodes - not 6011, 6013, 7014 or 7018 steel electrodes which are a 'walk-in-park' in comparison.I already did the Learn-to-Weld-Steel thing.BACK TO ALUMINUMI'm not posting pretty pictures for acolades; this is how it is - and that's how I show it.Aluminum is not so easy as steel - at least that has been my experience. It happens hot & fast and the slag interferes too.So please, before you derail my thread... do you have the first-hand experience to comment knowledgeably... have you attempted to stick weld aluminum yourself?.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:You are missing my point. None of those beads shown I would list a "good" on steel. I'll give "fair" to a few, but I see a good bit of inconsistancy on all of them. Thats the same inconsistancy I see in you alum beads. Show me evidence you can make "good" welds and I'll conceed the point. Originally Posted by Rick VAluminum is not so easy as steel - at least that has been my experience. It happens hot & fast and the slag interferes too.
Reply:DSW, I am quite disappointed in your attitude.You seem to be so fixated on my poor aluminum beads that:You never addressed my basic question, "Do these beads look 'cold' to you? Maybe I need more amps?"You never responded to my 2nd question, "have you attempted to stick weld aluminum yourself?"Instead, you chose to continue to put-me-down, to trash my steel weld bead too... "None of those beads shown I would list a "good" on steel." Other folks seemed satisfied when I posted them... but not you. Instead you label me "incapable of making a decent weld ".Ah well, guess you cant please everyone. So be it, I'll work to improve on my technique...Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:These were my first impressions of the different electrodes at the time of use.Rating Numbers: 1 = Poor, 2 = Acceptable, 3 = GoodHobart Aluminum 4043 1/8 inchSlag Removal with no preheat: 3 EasySlag Removal with 200F preheat: 1 HardStarts: 3 Easy the 1st timeRestarts: 1 or 2. A challenge as melted slag coats the rod tip and must be scraped off.Welding: 1 Have to maintain constant short arc - a challenge.General Comments: My travel speed was too slow at all amperages = high weld profile.Forney 4043 DC Aluminarc 1/8 inchSlag Removal with no preheat: 3 Easy - better than HobartSlag Removal with 200F preheat: 1 HardStarts: 2 - worse than Hobart, sticking rodsRestarts: 2. Slag does not always melt over the rod tip like Hobart. Sometimes a sleeve forms (like 7018)Welding: 2 Easier to keep a short arc because of 7018-like coating sleeve allowed me to drag the rod.General Comments: Better than Hobart.Thermadyne FirePower Aluminum Arc Rod 1/8 inchSlag Removal with no preheat: 3 Easy - better than HobartSlag Removal with 200F preheat: 1 HardStarts: 1 - I had trouble with both rods. Stick the rod and then flux breaks off.Restarts: 2. Slag does not always melt over the rod tip like Hobart. I never saw a coating sleeve form like with the Forney but once saw an original starting tip!Welding: 1 Have to maintain the arc gap yourself, like the Hobart.General Comments: Somewhat better than Hobart.Air Liquide Blueshield MNR Lite 1/8 inchSlag Removal with no preheat: 3 Easy - better than HobartSlag Removal with 200F preheat: 1 HardStarts: 1 - I had trouble with both rods. Stick the rod and then flux breaks off.Restarts: 2. Slag melts over the rod tip like Hobart. I never saw a coating sleeve form like with Forney.Welding: 2 Once the arc is stable, I could drag the rod - so maybe a sleeve does form.General Comments: I felt more comfortable with this rod; I felt I had more control.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWNo offense Rick... I applaude your ambition to do these "tests", but you still haven't learned to weld! I haven't really seen a "good" weld of any sort from you yet. That sort of makes these tests worthless. The beads look too iregular to draw many conclusions at all from where I sit. You need to concentrate on improoving your welding skills 1st. Your attention to detail on these tests is laudable and I applaude you for it. Now take that same attention to detail and learn to weld. If you could weld 1/2 as good as some of the better posters, these tests would have some value. Right now all you are doing is putting metal on a plate.Take one rod, say 7018 or 7014, and start at the begining. Run plain beads on plate in the flat position until you consistantly get a nice bead. Them lay another bead centered on the at the root of the 1st, overlapping 1/2 of the 1st bead and do that until you get nice beads every time. Then work on lap, T's outside corners and but joints in that order, again doing it over and over until you can do that joint nice every time. Then do the same procedure all over again with the plates in the horizontal, vertical and overhead positions. Then do it again, but change the heat settings a bit hotter/colder so you begin to understand whats going on when you change settings. Yes it's slow and boring, but thats how you learn to make good beads. When you are done with say 7014, go on and repaet the whole series again with 7018 or 6011... If you have really learned anything the 1st time thru, this should take less time to master... Then move on to the next rod and so on.
Reply:Hi Rick, I agree with you that they look cold, the 110A looks cool but passable in bead profile. as For what DSW said, a 2 inch bead seems really short for trying to evaluate. Maybe you don't have a steady hand. I am a bit the same way, can you try resting your hand on something or rest the middle of the rod on the other hand to steady it. have played with the Al rods a bit. Trying to get the right feed and consistent travel speed esp. on long beads is a challenge with Al rods cuz both have to speed up as the base metal heats up, do you have any 3/32 rod. try a full rod run at the max rating for that rod and then run a 1/8 next to it as hot as you can get it. suggestion: try a slight C weave.on your beads not a straight line or whip. also try maintaining a constant travel speed then we should be able to see (I can see it in the 110a pic) of progression from cold plate to warmer plate and your bead flattens out toward the end of those runs...I picked up 1/2 a sheet of Al yesterday. some time in the next few days I will try and cut some strips and run some beads with these Powcon's I got all over the place the get pics up. I am also thinking your machine is just not putting out a very nice DC current waveform... I got the machines put up for sale by the way. Oh I forgot which size of the Praxair rods you wanted and how many of each pack. I need to get up to the valley an buy them then I can put a care package together for youLast edited by soutthpaw; 07-13-2011 at 04:21 AM.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott YoungMy sentiments exactly!! I stated the same thing in his previous thread and he gathered the hoorah crowd of newbies that don't know what a weld is suppose to look like much less how to produce one only to whine and cry that I was being a meaning, bad person. He even showed me his street cred. baby picture. I can't express enough that I like his presentations as they are colorful and pretty and easily read. They show a great finesse of computer skills that I lack. BUT, I do believe he needs to learn to WELD before testing. The idea of testing implies that you have mastered the art of the subject matter and are competent in the minute details of the process.A few questions:How do you determine the fault of the rod and your inexperience?How do you evaluate the lack of weld profile when your best weld profiles show varied inconsistency?I had a welding student (not mine) the other day crowing about how good his welds were. He was instructing another student in the proper procedures for welding vertical. He stated categorically that you had to drop 20 amps to weld up and that you never ever weld vertical down and only fools would weld vertical down. It wasnt possible to weld a passable weld vert. down. He also said that you needed keep an extreme angle on the rod so you would burn through the plate (we were welding on 1/4 inch) I took his out to the welder and asked him to demonstrate for me. After he did, I then welded up and then down and then had him prep and bend both coupons. He was shocked. He had never seen slag hold to a weld like mine did. He also found it amazing the finished weld profile was so smooth. Granted I was standing and propped up at a comfortable height. After about an hour he was making huge improvements. It all boils down to rod angle, arc gap, and consistency of travel. It is that simple. You dont have it. Not to worry, if you quit wasting time with tests and demonstrations and put the time in under the hood you would get it. You have demonstrated that you have skills, just use them in another arena. You didnt learn computers by wasting your time doing something else. One last thing, running stringers on a flat plate is not welding!
Reply:Well, well... Scott Young... in your own words, "a meaning, bad person." It's been over a month since my baby picture asked you to 'Call or Fold' - as in "I showed you my results, you show me yours!" http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...475#post518475You know, I can't recall you posting any of your stick-weld pictures. Sorry, 'No ticket, no Entry'. No sneaking in under the fence this time. The Price of Admission is a post of your decent stick welds.Now DSW... you do have the Price of Admission. I checked out your post on Plow blade repair. http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=38354There is a close-up picture of a smooth looking weld you made using 1/8" 7018 with a Hobart AC/DC Stickmate on DC.I was impressed - something for me to emulate.Alas under that picture was another taken from a distance, "Capped with two passes of 3/32 7018AC. The AC rod gave me a hard time so no close-up pic."Huh? You only post pictures of your good welds?What's of more value in this comparison?Someone who posts pictures of all his welds: The Good, the Bad & The Ugly, orSomeone who post pictures of only his good welds?In my case, I may be weak on consistency but Soutthpaw has given me several helpful technique and technical pointers to improve my aluminum stick welds. Soutthpaw is helping in this joint effort, so maybe he can provide the consistency and also the smoothness you expect using the bigger amperage Powcon welder. (Soutthpaw: From Praxair, you were going to get me 1/2 lb (~28 rods) of 3/32 Messer electrodes.)On the other hand, my limited skills and my welder (AC 220 amp/ DC 140 amp) may be more representative of the majority of folks who will actually be using aluminum stick rods for maintenance and repair. Welding_Swede, thanks for your kind support - much appreciated.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Thanks for the reminder, I will grab some next time I get to the San Fernando valley. I think that a bit more rod movement or some sort of weave or Zig-Zag (small weave say 1/8" side to side, thickenss of the rod) will help your weld appearance a lot. i almost never run a straight stringer bead unless I am doing a root pass on a butt weld for example. the problem on a flat plate stringer is that the weld tends to overbuild in the middle and not enough (weld or heat )on the sides. most beads you really focus on the edges of the bead and the center takes care of itself. when you do weave the momentary change of direction of each edge doubles the time the rod is actually welding the edge of the bead without adding any noticeable pauses on the weld movement....here is a good list of pointers tooother suggestion is do all the welds you want to try with one specific rod brand then do a different brand. Jumping from one brand to another every rod seems like it would make it tougher to be consistent. I know we discussed this before but i didn't really have an answer at the time...http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...rticles16.htmlLast edited by soutthpaw; 07-13-2011 at 11:38 AM.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VDSW, I am quite disappointed in your attitude.You seem to be so fixated on my poor aluminum beads that:You never addressed my basic question, "Do these beads look 'cold' to you? Maybe I need more amps?"You never responded to my 2nd question, "have you attempted to stick weld aluminum yourself?"Instead, you chose to continue to put-me-down, to trash my steel weld bead too... "None of those beads shown I would list a "good" on steel." Other folks seemed satisfied when I posted them... but not you. Instead you label me "incapable of making a decent weld ".Ah well, guess you cant please everyone. So be it, I'll work to improve on my technique...
Reply:I messed it some rod for about 20 mins this morning with the 300SM/5P 1/8 at about 110 amps give or take. what I got from these trials is1. consistent steady speed and movement is absolutely critical with Al electrodes. probably because they melt so fast and hiccup gives you a blob of bird poop. kneeling on the driveway at my In-Laws house is not optimal. 2. penetration is not a problem at all with these rods except for too much of it. a lot of my practice beads went right through the 1/4 plate making nice weld beads on the back side of what I was welding. 3. cooling with water makes the slag come off much easier. 4. You can tell if the current is too high as I observed the rod was melting before the flux causing a long arc hidden behind unmelted flux that also caused the arc to blow out at an angle I will post pics once I get everything figured out. My observation so far is that I need to travel much faster and probably bring up the amps just a bit to reduce rod sticking. for the current required for a good flow of the rod, traditional Steel electrode travel speeds are way too slow. Its hard to get the hang of moving so much faster than I am used to. I do need to go much faster to reduce the penetration while getting a good bead profile without loosing the arc. Also had some good bead profile using a slight push instead of pull travel. The 300 and 400 machines I have do have puddle control which I have set at zero. I can try running with the 200SM as it does not have this feature and may be more representative of Ricks machine settings. Rick, I am curious how the back side of you 1/4" plate looks. if you are getting "bead'" appearing on the back side like I was then, like me, your travel speed is too slow. you cannot lower the current cuz then the rod will stick and loose the arc...Also, Don't be afraid of heat. looking at your steel as well as your Al beads, a lot of them look cold. much better to err on the side of too hot than too coldAlso from your pics I would say make 110 or 100 amps your lowest setting and crank up the amps and try 120-140 as that is the max on your machine... I think your trials show pretty clearly that 70 and 90 are way too coldLast edited by soutthpaw; 07-13-2011 at 02:02 PM.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Keep at it Rick. Your welding (in general) does need some refinement but keep at it and you'll do fine.Some of the guys here like any other board will jump at the opportunity to be critical of anything anyone does unless they did it. But there are some that will give you some encouragement and helpful information along the way.I've been a member here for years but post very little. Some good welders here and some that think they're the second coming if you get my drift. Those I tend to ignore.
Reply:Swede, I don't particularly have an axe to grind per se, it is simply the end result of a soured attempt at communicating with someone who insists on not listening to any of the men who know what they are doing. Over time when one continues to refuse to listen to simple things, you grow tired of putting forth the effort. I haven't resorted to vulgarities or name calling or even personal denigrations; rather, I have simply attempted to point out that a person who continues to present themselves as an authority that clearly isn't puts themselves out there for open criticism.I never said I was an instructor; sorry if it appeared I was. I mentioned a student due to where I worked they would bring students to weld in the field and would have them work with a real weldor for their "apprenticeship". I wasn't a true apprenticeship as they only would put in a few days a week and a couple weeks a semester. They were attempting to show the students various welding positions and welding environments. I have had some great students that want to learn, and I have had other who are only interested in expressing how much they think they know. The first are very teachable and the latter are just not worth the effort.Now, If Zap, DSW, Yorkiepap, SundownIII, Tozzi, Fat Bastard, DavidR or any of the many more not listed wanted to demonstrate the ins and outs of stick welding aluminum they have demonstrated they actually know what they are doing and have a professional level of competency behind them that validates their credibility.Rick's reception would be wholly different if he came asking how to better improve his welds and following said advice from those that know than coming out as the authority wanting to be heard. I view it the same as the ones who buy a 110 mig and want to weld a hitch or trailer as their first or second project...people who are hellbent on not listening.
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott YoungSwede, I don't particularly have an axe to grind per se, it is simply the end result of a soured attempt at communicating with someone who insists on not listening to any of the men who know what they are doing. Over time when one continues to refuse to listen to simple things, you grow tired of putting forth the effort. I haven't resorted to vulgarities or name calling or even personal denigrations; rather, I have simply attempted to point out that a person who continues to present themselves as an authority that clearly isn't puts themselves out there for open criticism.I never said I was an instructor; sorry if it appeared I was. I mentioned a student due to where I worked they would bring students to weld in the field and would have them work with a real weldor for their "apprenticeship". I wasn't a true apprenticeship as they only would put in a few days a week and a couple weeks a semester. They were attempting to show the students various welding positions and welding environments. I have had some great students that want to learn, and I have had other who are only interested in expressing how much they think they know. The first are very teachable and the latter are just not worth the effort.Now, If Zap, DSW, Yorkiepap, SundownIII, Tozzi, Fat Bastard, DavidR or any of the many more not listed wanted to demonstrate the ins and outs of stick welding aluminum they have demonstrated they actually know what they are doing and have a professional level of competency behind them that validates their credibility.Rick's reception would be wholly different if he came asking how to better improve his welds and following said advice from those that know than coming out as the authority wanting to be heard. I view it the same as the ones who buy a 110 mig and want to weld a hitch or trailer as their first or second project...people who are hellbent on not listening.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpaw...I think that a bit more rod movement or some sort of weave or Zig-Zag (small weave say 1/8" side to side, thickenss of the rod) will help your weld appearance a lot... the problem on a flat plate stringer is that the weld tends to overbuild in the middle and not enough (weld or heat )on the sides...
Reply:First, keep up the good effort and do not let the naysayers bring you down.I have followed this post from the beginning and I never saw any claims by you that you were an expert welder. Matter of fact, a test like this is more useful to the unskilled masses like me. I too have limited skills and a small homeowner grade buzzbox. If there happens to be a rod that shines with handicaps like this then this will be very good info for hacks like me who like to tinker with Non-critical stuff. A professional welder can make nearly anything look good regardless of equipment or electrode - not all of us are that good though.Lastly: How did you calibrate/verify the accuracy of your amp setting?
Reply:Originally Posted by rankrank1First, keep up the good effort and do not let the naysayers bring you down.... Lastly: How did you calibrate/verify the accuracy of your amp setting?
Reply:Now that is pretty darn clever. The Only thing that I do not like is having to pierce the insulation on the cables with the probe leads.
Reply:Originally Posted by rankrank1Now that is pretty darn clever. The Only thing that I do not like is having to pierce the insulation on the cables with the probe leads.
Reply:Rick,First, let me say that you definitely have an "inquiring mind" and do demonstrate above average intelligence, combined with some old fashioned ingenuity.With that said, I can't understand why you're having as much difficulty as you are with grasping what DSW is saying.I did my graduate work in Industrial Engineering with a concentration in Systems Analysis. One of the first things we were taught was the importance of minimizing the variables in any test so as to validate the results.DSW was not criticizing your weld beads as to whether they were good or bad. What he was saying was that the consistency was not there, even with steel, to move forward in evaluating the performance of aluminum rods.Looking at all the beads produced from the different rods you used at different settings, produced one underlying fact. None of them produced "acceptable results" for anything other than hobby use. I think that's why you hear different comments about this whole exercise. On one hand you have the inexperienced guys cheering you on with their "great job, really interested in the results, etc, etc". Then you have the experienced guys who place a higher degree of "acceptability" to their work.Several comments have been made about the results being "more creditable" if the tests were conducted by more experienced welders. That's not going to happen. No pro is going to be wasting his time evaluating what rods provide the best/unacceptable welds. A pro is going to use the proper equipment and get satisfactory results.On the other hand, the hobbiest (who this thread seems directed towards), doesn't have the same acceptability standards as the pro, and will be satisfied with just being "able to stick two pieces of aluminum together". From what I've seen from your work, there isn't a great difference between ANY of the rods you've used. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that a larger sample of different electrodes will produce the same results.In a previous posting you fired back at me claiming that "not everyone has thousands of dollars of machines dedicated to a particular process". To that, I respond, you're right. But you should also know that I do a fair amount of aluminum welding/fabrication and not one of the beads/welds you show would ever leave my shop as representative of the work I do. If you plan to race at Indy, you don't enter a Ford Fiesta.You don't see the pros on here telling posters how to achieve the "best welds" on aluminum using a Hobart 140. The reason you don't is because they already know it's an inferior machine for the task at hand.You're a smart guy. You'd be better served spending the time/effort on developing your skills in a proven process.As I once had to tell two PHD mathematicians that worked for me, "I don't give a f--k whether you integrate or differentiate, the basic premise is flawed, so any conclusion is invalid".If you wish to improve your welding skills, spend the time on proven processes. If you're just interested in "playing around", then do so. Just don't expect the experienced guys to be chiming in with the RAH RAHs that the newbies do.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:^^^This guy nailed it Rick. It doesn't look like DSW is trying to put you down at all, he is just saying that even your regular stick welding comparison looks like a welding students work at best, its very inconsistent it doesn't really look like you have quite grasped how to see the puddle when you are welding. To be honest it might be your machine too it looks like a cheap welder, not a professionals tool. I'd like to see you weld some beads with a nice machine and go from there.But I do like the fact that you are taking your time to compile all this info and test it out.
Reply:And FWIW even the 110 amp beads look very cold. Don't pay attention to what the box tells you to weld at amperage wise, you should be paying attention to the weld itself and how the rod runs. Your machine could be off, your style of welding depending on your arc length can change the way the amps run a rod. For example my co worker on the same machine, same fresh 1/8" 7018 would run at 125ish because he stays more away from his work and has a longer arc length, if I ran that same rod it would be cold and I like to run 135-140 because I keep a very tight arc length pretty much buried.
Reply:LOL,Personally, when I want to check the output of one of my machines, I'll use my Fluke AC/DC clamp meter and read the amps directly.Punching a bunch of small holes in your welding cables is NOT a good idea.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.Hey SundownIII are you on new meds or something else. Good post(answer) hopefully people will listen to this softer response.Rick V,How much is it costing to do these test? Even if you got some stuff free it would still have a value. What ever the value is it would still be to much to spend just to prove that the option of last resort would be worth using rather then just leaving it as that.
Reply:Nice to see some positive comments from Sundown and others. I think Rick has been convinced to get a DC Ammeter. (as soon as it goes on sale at Canadian tire). This is something Rick is doing out of personal Interest and is sharing it with the rest of us. I am sure he would still do this if there was no forum to post his experiences on. Rick has mentioned several times that he is doing this and sharing the results specifically targeted at the hobby/hack weldors... No reason for negative comments as he is not building something that might pose a danger or be unsafe. So as several have done here point out ways to improve instead of saying something sucks..... I know Rick will listen to constructive criticism as can be seen in his replies. Hopefully we can get him into a nicer welder soon. I am very curious to see how much of a difference the machine itself makes... Oh I have about 48 of these Bomaweld rods I will be sending you. so plenty of them to practice with. Due to my Back problems being bad the last few days I haven't been able to do much welding but will get some pics posted when I can get some beads ran.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Great post sundown. That was what I was trying to say, just not as many words.
Reply:Hi folks - thank you all for your comments and suggestions. Let me address a few... Originally Posted by Scott Young... someone who insists on not listening to any of the men who know what they are doing....
Reply:"Maybe you don't have a steady hand. I am a bit the same way, can you try resting your hand on something or rest the middle of the rod on the other hand to steady it." - soutthpaw +1millermatic 35 acdc thunderboltesab 2522 oxweld w-17 torchesesab plasma cutterspeedway fluxcoreold bug gas welderROLL TIDE
Reply:I am finding this thread interesting. Tried stick aluminum once on nightshift. Never saw aluminum disappear so fast in my life Keep up the evaluation and you will practice as you evaluate.More power to you Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VOne challenge is that stick-welding steel experience doesn't simply transfer into stick-welding aluminum; Al is totally different animal. It's analogous to a skier trying to instruct a snowborder. The two processes look very similar but until the skier actually tries to snowboard, he won't realize that his years of experience as a skier won't help much with snowboarding - a different animal.
Reply:DSW. Thanks for taking the time to do that. I had a similar situation in that I had a few lbs of aluminum rod that was given to me which I have been playing with. For me, ill just use my spool gun if I need to do Al. The only rods I bought I am sending by mail to Rick. You also seemed to get similar results that I did and identify what similar skills and issues are critical when using these rods.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Sorry premature release... Attached ImagesLast edited by Rick V; 07-15-2011 at 07:12 PM.Reason: Post send out prematurely - delete allRick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:It's interesting to see a recent believer in aluminum stick welding.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=57877therrera - Aluminum stick welding project "To my surprise and relief, it worked perfect! In fact it worked better than I had imagined it would. So much so that I decided I am going to switch to the stick rod for repairs that are done in the flat position. I was able to build up in less than 1/2 an hour where using the tig approach it took me almost two hours." "I have since used this rod about three more times since my last post as I get called a lot to do aluminum repairs. It has its place and I can't see how I got along without it as my usual approach to aluminum repairs is TIG."Moving along here's a new series of weld beads on 1/4 inch thick aluminum plate. Of the four available 1/8 inch electrodes, I chose to use the Thermadyne Firepower simply because I had a 1 lb of them versus only ½ lb of the other three electrodes.The beads are longer - usually across the 6 inch width of the aluminum plate.The beads were run first at room temperture at 70, 90, 110, 125, 140 amps.Addition beads were layed down at 125 & 140 amps at 200F, and 140 amps at 250F and 300F.This is a video-camera view of the VOM meter displaying actual amps during welding and the indicator scale setting of amperage on the welder. The camera also recorded audio, so comments I made during welding were captured.Here are the results of running beads across 6 inches of an aluminum plate ¼ inch thick.ALUMINUM PLATE (1/4 inch) at Room Temperature (78 90 degrees F)Note: Scale = position of amperage adjustment level against amperage scale on the welder.Bead 1Scale = 70 amp, actual amps = 76 89 (80 ave) amps, burned 11.75 inches of electrodeRecorded Comment: Having trouble starting. Start struck rod 25 times, 4 stops to clean flux off rod tip.Rod went out twice. Restarts struck rod 4 times, 2 stops to clean flux off rod tip.Slag came off easily with wire brush.Bead 2Scale = 90 amp, actual amps = ? No video/audio information (forgot to start camera!)Bead 3Scale = 110 amp, actual amps = 115 amps 1.25 inch left over, burned 11.75 inches of electrodeDifficult starting, stuck rod several times.Start struck rod 11 times, 3 stops to clean flux off rod tip.Slag came off easily with wire brush.Bead 4Scale = 125 amp, actual amps = 125 amps, burned 9 inches of electrodeStart struck rod 3 times, 0 stops to clean flux off rod tip.½ way along I noticed I could press down and feel the flux crumbling off.Slag getting more difficult to remove with a wire brush.... to be continued in next postRick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Bead 5Scale = 140 amp, actual amps = 125-135 ampsStart struck rod 3 times, 1 stop to clean flux off rod tip.Rod went out ½ way, 2 strike restart, actual amps = 130 138 amps, burnt 13 inches of electrodeToo difficult to remove slag with wire brush. Had to use water and scrub with fibre brush. Cleaned up OK then.Here is a pictorial overview of the results of using the same electrode at different amperages.Close up of the middle of weld areas welds made at room temperature.ALUMINUM PLATE (1/4 inch) with Preheat (200, 250 and 300F)Preheat was provided using a Propylene torch below the plate and monitoring top of plate temperature with an infrared temperature sensing gun.Bead 6Preheat = 200 F, scale = 125 amp, actual amps = 125 amps, burned 10.75 inches of electrodeStart struck rod 7 times, 1 stop to clean flux off rod tip.Recorded Comment: Rod burned very differently from no preheat.Very difficult to remove slag with a wire brush. Had to use water and scrub with fibre brush.... to be continued in the next post.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Bead 7Preheat 200 F, scale = 140 amp, actual amps = 125 - 135 amps, burned 12 inches of electrodeStart struck rod 3 times, 0 stops to clean flux off rod tip.Recorded Comment: Went pretty good, I had quite a bit of control too.Very difficult to slag off with wire brush. Had to use water and scrub with fibre brush.Bead 8Preheat 250 F, scale = 125 amp, actual amps = 120 - 130 amps, burned 13 inches of electrodeStart struck rod 5 times, 1 stop to clean flux off rod tip.Weld length is short (4 inches) ) about 2/3rds of plate width (6 inches)Very difficult to get slag off with wire brush. Had to spray with water and scrub with fibre brush.Bead 9Preheat 250 F, scale = 140 amp, actual amps = 125 - 130 amps, burned 12 inches of electrodeStart struck rod 7 times, 1 stop to clean flux off rod tip.Weld length is full 6 inch width of plate.Note: After welding, the plate temperature was 350 412 F.Very difficult to get slag off with wire brush. Had to spray with water and scrub with fiber brush.Bead 10Preheat 300 F, 140 amp, actual amps = 115 - 135 amps, burned 10.25 inches of electrodeStart struck rod 4 times, 0 stops to clean flux off rod tip.Note: Erratic electrode burning large variation in amps during welding.Recorded Comment: Went pretty good. Rod speed was controllable. Weld length is about 4.5 inches, 3/4 the width of plate. Profile looks pretty flat.Very difficult to get slag off with wire brush. Had to spray with water and scrub with fibre brushHere is a pictorial overview of the results of using the same electrode at different amperages with preheat.... to be continued in next postRick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Here's a close up of the middle of weld areas welds made with 200 300 F preheat.Here's an oblique view of the longer weld beads made with the 1/8 inch Firepower electrodes.That's it - no more continued on next post! Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Rick I just realized, did you ever post what the manufacturers suggested amps are for these rods? I've got no ide if the amps you are using are at the top, middle or bottom of these ranges or outside the recomended perameters..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:looks like you are getting a steadier hand there. also the 125amp range seems to be giving some nice beads. 140 looks like the puddle is getting hot and washing out. Also as I suspected the 110 amps and below you had ran before is just too cold. did you try any of the 3/32's rod? I am feeling the smallest rod possible is going to yield the best results. u can slow down a bit and not be putting so much heat into the puddle..I would also narrow down your sample range as its pretty obvious what is NOT working as far as temp and preheat. I think I would drop the preheat for now and go with room temp. most hobby/hack welders are not going to mess with preheat anyway... 120-140 with no preheat on 1/8 electrode seems to be a good reference pointPost up pics of the back sides of those plates as I am curious again about penetration or over penetrationLast edited by soutthpaw; 07-15-2011 at 08:29 PM.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWRick I just realized, did you ever post what the manufacturers suggested amps are for these rods? I've got no ide if the amps you are using are at the top, middle or bottom of these ranges or outside the recomended perameters.
Reply:Thanks Rick, that confirms what I thought the setting range was from the rods I have. I'm beginning to think your arc length or travel speed is a part of the issues you are having. The fact you only seem to get good beads at the upper end and beyond of the suggested settings tells me there's a problem most likely with the way you are running these rods. Even with the cr@ppy alum rods I have, I was able to get plenty of heat at the lower to mid range setting suggested.It's part of the reason I did that other thread on arc length for you today. I was thinking that many of your beads looked cold both here and with steel to a certain extent. That's telling me there's some common reason why your beads look cold when the amps are set correctly..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW... I'm beginning to think your arc length or travel speed is a part of the issues you are having. The fact you only seem to get good beads at the upper end and beyond of the suggested settings tells me there's a problem most likely with the way you are running these rods. Even with the cr@ppy alum rods I have, I was able to get plenty of heat at the lower to mid range setting suggested.
Reply:I already made it standard practice when I ran these to do a quick drag of the rod across a file if I loose the arc. for the most part the arc restarts first try after that.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:An advantage of having a recorded video is that I can play back the welding of each bead and obtain some welding times.The figure below shows the length of each bead, the length of rod burned to form the bead and the rod burning time.Notice that all the welds beads were laid down in less than 30 seconds thats aluminum for you = Fast!The rate of 1/8 inch rod burning was remarkably constant at 0.47 inches per second ±0.03 inches /sec.Travel speed determined the amount of bead deposited per rod and that varied between these limits.H Bead 8 (250 F @ 125 amps): Travel speed = 0.125 inch/sec, 0.27 bead inches/rod inch burntD Bead 4 (room temp @ 125 amps): Travel speed = 0.344 inch/sec, 0.67 bead inches/rod inch burntThese numbers may come in handy later for comparison with 3/32 inch electrodes.Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:From the looks of your welds, it appears your rod angle is wrong. stand your rod up more. The V pattern of your weld bead tells the tale. You will also find your profile will flatten some and your penetration will deepen as your arc force goes into the plate and not across your weld puddle. As for the slag getting ahead of your puddle that is what travel speed is for. You will find the long arcing and gobblets of molten filler metal will decrease.too high of amperage, long arcing, wrong rod angle, and too much heat in the parent metal will all cause poor weld splatter and goblets.
Reply:several of the rods Rick is using recommend a rod angle perpendicular to the parent metal. Keeping excessive heat out of the base metal is a challange. That is why I don't see pre heat being much use. I need to get some smaller diameter rod and try some more beads too. I only have 5/32 left and it's way too hot for the 1/4" plate I have.Tiger Sales: AHP Distributor www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P, Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma. For Sale: Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun. Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott YoungFrom the looks of your welds, it appears your rod angle is wrong. stand your rod up more. The V pattern of your weld bead tells the tale. You will also find your profile will flatten some and your penetration will deepen as your arc force goes into the plate and not across your weld puddle. As for the slag getting ahead of your puddle that is what travel speed is for. You will find the long arcing and gobblets of molten filler metal will decrease.too high of amperage, long arcing, wrong rod angle, and too much heat in the parent metal will all cause poor weld splatter and goblets.
Reply:Really enjoying this thread. At minimum, I am seeing quite a bit of promise - even the cold beads are surprising clean weld beads. I was expecting dirty nasty looking welding of aluminum but that has not been the case at all. I am truly enjoying seeing what an old buzzbox welder is capable of doing as they are so affordable to a homeowner level shop and literally last forever. Nice to see a budget approach to non-critical welding. Looking forward to more....(and thanks)
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpaw...I would also narrow down your sample range as its pretty obvious what is NOT working as far as temp and preheat. I think I would drop the preheat for now and go with room temp. most hobby/hack welders are not going to mess with preheat anyway... 120-140 with no preheat on 1/8 electrode seems to be a good reference point |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:25:17