Cast Iron engine block repair..

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I have a Dart Big M engine block given to me... I has had a previous repair from some rod damage to the oil pan rails... The previous owner has run it since the repair with out issue other than it would leave a drops of oil in the shop floor. I notice a crack where the repair was made..(See photos) Would it be possible to u grove this out and weld it back up?  I have brazed cast before but never tried to weld it... I have a Miller Syncrowave 250 so I have stick or tig capabilities.... What are the professionals opinions on this issue.
Reply:Best person here on cast iron is probably Castweld, but I haven't seen him posting in awhile.There are a number of ways to do this. High nickle filler would be my personal choice, but I'd still run my thoughts past someone like Castweld who does this sort of stuff daily. I just checked and I know he's online. Hopefully he'll chime in on this. I'd like to see what his thoughts are on this repair..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:If it were mine I'd braze it.
Reply:I was wondering if some silicon bronze would plug this up?  I have used it on a shifter detent gate to change the way the it operates and it was cast iron I believe...
Reply:Is that the mounting surface of the oil pan?  I'm having trouble figuring out what part of the block it is.  It is under any mechanical stress?
Reply:jmink427  -  Kudos - for your photo quality.In Photo 1  . . .The dressing striations immediately identity this as a botched first-repair.The circular 'Ghost/Rainbow' in the center of the section, locates the fractureoccurred through one of the taped holes of the pan-rails - and they just welded over it - or welded over a broken bolt.It is less apparent, but I see a similar condition in Photo 2 . . .Taped holes are deep, and welds are shallow - guaranteed - there is a pocket of Crud under the weld, and inside the Oil-Pan-Rail section.  The bottom of the taped hole is the home of the stress-riser - and the center of your heart-burn - recurring fracture.    It was never repaired. jmink427 - YgF'edThe Cure - to get the devil out - you have to exorcise the weld area.Strip the block.Cook the block/hot tank  -  Potash -  Potassium hydroxide.Regionally heat with a rose-bud to purge the bath-bleed.Hog-it out to the root of the crack - and weld appropriately.After the most considerate weld, and flange reconfiguration - a brazing top-cap is an option before you machine-plane [or file] the oil-pan-rails."weld appropriately"  is a call to all for recommendations.Y'all - cast guys - get involved.Opus
Reply:Nonsense. It's not a combustion chamber or exhaust manifold. Thermal expansion is a non issue.V-ee it out deep but narrow( 115mm cutoff wheel). Grab a 3/32 braze- coated and fill it up.#5 on a V100 type should give you enough heat. For that matter V-ee it and borrow my black glue. If crank case pressure is an issue you need a road draft tube.## " Cupcake" hears young meatheads Googling -/road draft tube/ ##It just isn't a critical repair. Don't complicate it.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:How about checking out muggyweld?   Go to this link and check out their welding cast iron videos.   They have a neat product that makes it look stupid easy for fixing cast iron stuff.http://muggyweld.com/videos/cast-iron-videosLincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:I'd like to see what his thoughts are on this repair.
Reply:I don't like repairs involving heat on blocks because it tends to distort the block.  If the area is not structural to the block how about gouging it out with a grinder and filling it with some good epoxy?
Reply:Originally Posted by 76GMC1500I don't like repairs involving heat on blocks because it tends to distort the block.  If the area is not structural to the block how about gouging it out with a grinder and filling it with some good epoxy?
Reply:Originally Posted by OPUS FERROjmink427  -  Kudos - for your photo quality.In Photo 1  . . .The dressing striations immediately identity this as a botched first-repair.The circular 'Ghost/Rainbow' in the center of the section, locates the fractureoccurred through one of the taped holes of the pan-rails - and they just welded over it - or welded over a broken bolt.It is less apparent, but I see a similar condition in Photo 2 . . .Taped holes are deep, and welds are shallow - guaranteed - there is a pocket of Crud under the weld, and inside the Oil-Pan-Rail section.  The bottom of the taped hole is the home of the stress-riser - and the center of your heart-burn - recurring fracture.    It was never repaired. jmink427 - YgF'edThe Cure - to get the devil out - you have to exorcise the weld area.Strip the block.Cook the block/hot tank  -  Potash -  Potassium hydroxide.Regionally heat with a rose-bud to purge the bath-bleed.Hog-it out to the root of the crack - and weld appropriately.After the most considerate weld, and flange reconfiguration - a brazing top-cap is an option before you machine-plane [or file] the oil-pan-rails."weld appropriately"  is a call to all for recommendations.Y'all - cast guys - get involved.Opus
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartIs that the mounting surface of the oil pan?  I'm having trouble figuring out what part of the block it is.  It is under any mechanical stress?
Reply:I can guarantee that there was never any consideration (by the designers) to provide a salvageable or repairable crankcase/block after a failed connecting rod event.In the mindset and rationale of engineers and designers, that block would be deemed as "damaged beyond use" for a lot less than the damages seen here.That does not mean that it can't be salvaged by clever and thoughtful people and processes, it just means that the design intent never considered how to limit the extent of damages to (or to facilitate repairs to) a block that has been fractured for any reason.In their mind, any crack or fracture calls for the block to be trashed.The reason those scalloped areas are there is because there is simply no reason to extend the water jacket all the way to the bottom of the cylinder.
Reply:http://www.locknstitch.com/Default.htm I have fixed a ton of engine blocks this way. Many Cummins blocks. Look through the pictures. Especially the marine block repair.
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerweldI can guarantee that there was never any consideration (by the designers) to provide a salvageable or repairable crankcase/block after a failed connecting rod event.In the mindset and rationale of engineers and designers, that block would be deemed as "damaged beyond use" for a lot less than the damages seen here.That does not mean that it can't be salvaged by clever and thoughtful people and processes, it just means that the design intent never considered how to limit the extent of damages to (or to facilitate repairs to) a block that has been fractured for any reason.In their mind, any crack or fracture calls for the block to be trashed.The reason those scalloped areas are there is because there is simply no reason to extend the water jacket all the way to the bottom of the cylinder.
Reply:It looks like both sides had a serious chunk taken out of them, so it's hard to tell if there is stress in the weld area. If not. I would epoxy it with JB weld. If it stressed, I think I would buy a specialty electrode to keep the area affected by the heat low. If welded, it probably would need to be line bored and cylinders bored. The "lock-n-stich" method that can work well. I'm not crazy about it for putting a chunk back in. Are there blocks out there at a decent price?  Why did that rod throw originally?  It looks like it took a beating.
Reply:Want to sell the block?
Reply:Just braze it, looks like a low stress area. If it wasn't you would be missing some of the block . To weld that without distortion would require a massive fixture and the patience of a saint.Miller xmt304,  Miller S22 p12, Miier Maxstar SD, Miller 252 w 30A, Miller super32p12, Lincoln Ranger 9, Thermal Arc 181I with spoolgun, Hypertherm 10000 ,Smith torches. Esab 161lts miniarc.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DJust braze it, looks like a low stress area. If it wasn't you would be missing some of the block . To weld that without distortion would require a massive fixture and the patience of a saint.
Reply:Originally Posted by Showdog75Want to sell the block?
Reply:Evidently it was welded without heating it- its cracked. Lock N Stitch would have worked before it was welded but now it is too hard to drill and tap next to welded areas. Brazing is best option if you have an oven, preheat to around 750 for an hour braze while hot, reheat if you loose a couple hundred degrees, post heat at 750 and cool at 100 degrees per half hour. Next option is to use nirod preferably ni99. Weld 1/2 inch per pass and let cool before next pass, if you can hold bare hand on it its ready to accept next weld. This is considered a cold welding process and will give the least distortion to block. The block was not properly welded and the possibility of the line bore and cylinders being already distorted is high, check before reassembly. Id mag or dye penetrant check it before attempting any repair. If cracks reach water jacket, cold welding is not an option.  In that area I would not consider brazing without an oven. PM me if you do not understand or you need more detail.PeterEquipment:2  old paws2  eyes (that don't look so good)1  bad back
Reply:Castweld, I have tried to sent a Private Message twice but no luck..... So I'll post it here..I think I understand... V the crack down and weld about 1/2" and peen it as soon as I finish each little weld.. Let it cool enough I can touch it with out getting burned the repeat till I finish... Can this be achieved with a TIG set-up or do I need to use me stick set-up.... What rod, I have seen advertisement for A Muggy Weld #77? alos what is the best way to get the oil out of the crack.   Thanks to you and all the other that have shared the knowledge on this issue..
Reply:That block was from a running car?  Those cylinder bores look pretty rusted and pitted.  Looks like it was repaired on both sides between the first and second main webs.  Even if you fix that, and I know those aftermarket Chevy blocks are quite pricy, you're likely gonna need to line bore the mains and bore/hone the cylinders.  Around me, there's a good $1000+ in machine work waiting for it and then you have a block that may fail.  IDK man.  Is that an impala in your avatar?  I'm gonna embark in a BBC build next year.  What are you running now?Please post how it turns out.Last edited by Drf255; 12-19-2013 at 04:54 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Thanks for chiming in Peter. We've missed your projects. You need to post up more when you get a chance. I always love to read about your work. I always learn something reading your posts..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald ReaganOriginally Posted by Drf255That block was from a running car?  Those cylinder bores look pretty rusted and pitted.  Looks like it was repaired on both sides between the first and second main webs.  Even if you fix that, and I know those aftermarket Chevy blocks are quite pricy, you're likely gonna need to line bore the mains and bore/hone the cylinders.  Around me, there's a good $1000+ in machine work waiting for it and then you have a block that may fail.  IDK man.  Is that an impala in your avatar?  I'm gonna embark in a BBC build next year.  What are you running now?Please post how it turns out.
Reply:Originally Posted by jmink427Castweld, I have tried to sent a Private Message twice but no luck..... So I'll post it here..I think I understand... V the crack down and weld about 1/2" and peen it as soon as I finish each little weld.. Let it cool enough I can touch it with out getting burned the repeat till I finish... Can this be achieved with a TIG set-up or do I need to use me stick set-up.... What rod, I have seen advertisement for A Muggy Weld #77? alos what is the best way to get the oil out of the crack.   Thanks to you and all the other that have shared the knowledge on this issue..
Reply:Originally Posted by castweldI'd skip the muggy stuff, just overpriced reboxed filler. Tig does work but on oily stuff stick works better, you just can not clean it enough. nife55 is the lowest nickel content I'd go on something like this. Your tig rig will stick weld if you switch leads.PeterThanks, been busy. I have not posted a lately because I have not taken time to take pictures. One man shop full of work, too busy. Shame, I have had some really neat stuff done too.Peter
Reply:I think he give it to you for a reason... I would give it back to him...  The time you spend fixing it, line boring it, cylinder boring and deck plate honing the cylinders, then what chance are you taking on it destroying your rotating assembly if the repair fails..   I would find another block if it were me. I know a block is about $2000 but whats your rotating assembly worth and is it worth the gamble?tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:I went picked up some 55 rods yesterday,  I was cleaning the area before I started cutting the weld out and the solvent would run right through the block I don't even think the weld was fused to the iron at all.....Today I cut out the weld the other person did. I don't think they v-ed it down very much or at all...  I welded it up about 1/4" to about 3/8" at a time and peened after every weld and letting it cool and repeat... Well 5 hours later I'm done.... Last edited by jmink427; 12-21-2013 at 09:24 PM.
Reply:Needle scalers are very effective at peening.
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerweldNeedle scalers are very effective at peening.
Reply:Originally Posted by castweldThanks, been busy. I have not posted a lately because I have not taken time to take pictures. One man shop full of work, too busy. Shame, I have had some really neat stuff done too.Peter
Reply:Originally Posted by jmink427I welded it up about 1/4" to about 3/8" at a time and peened after every weld and letting it cool and repeat... Well 5 hours later I'm done....
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55I believe that's what Peter (castweld) refers to as "cold welding" it.  No more than 1/2" at a time and let cool to touch before proceeding.Looks good from here and being at the pan rail I doubt you'll have any alignment issues.  You can use a precision straight edge and feeler gauges or set the crank in new bearings, gauge clearances and if it spins freely you're good to go.  Standard procedure as you would know if you've built many performance engines.