What is the truth about gas cylinder ownership?

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My local welding supply house, owned by Praxair, tells me I cannot own a cylinder larger than the 80cf/90cf tanks.  I stood there and told them that they just swapped a cylinder for me that was 155cf that I own.  They kind of looked dumb founded.So I asked how I can get a larger cylinder and they said I can't unless I buy one that has owner papers.What is the real truth on cylinder ownership and how does one obtain cylinders that are larger than 125cf and actually get them filled?What about places such as Tractor Supply that fill argon tanks. Will they fill any size tank?  Do they fill other companies tanks for you?
Reply:The answer to your questions varies from region to region and supplier to supplier. The only way to really get an answer is to ask your local suppliers. Around here, Airgas wouldn't sell me over 80 cf, while Praxair sold me up to 125. Your mileage may vary.Everlast PA160-STH... and that's about it!
Reply:around here praxxair and cameron welding supply with swap 330cf and down to tiny bottles all owner bottles no problems like said above depends on region and your gas supplierkinda hard to have owner bottle papers when you do a swap on just a fill non swap might be a different story in your region cameron welding supply (stanton CA) in my area will fill any of my bottles no questions asked as long as it has a smooth neck ringMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:Location and supplier vary. I have 125 and no problem with refills. If I was gonna go to the 300I was told rental only. Go figure.   Besides tank prices, the REFILLS vary by suppliers too. I go to one for $ 35.00 for 75/25 on a 125, and another wants $ 48.00.
Reply:Region to region,company to company,store to store.....person to person.There are NO hard and fast rules about cylinder ownership.
Reply:It's whatever your supplier says the truth is"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:How's that lathe rebuild goin' Sambo?Lincoln PrecisionTig 275Miller 251Miller DialArc 250Bridgeport millHossfeld bender & diesLogan shaperJet 14 X 40 latheSouth Bend 9" 'C'Hypertherm 900Ellis 3000 band saw21"Royersford ExcelsiorTwo shops, still too many tools.
Reply:around here, you can buy any sized tank, but anything over a Q can be rented as well so you never know how the tanks have been treated when you exchange them.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:To give you a few more details, around here, if you DO end up in possession of a larger tank that is private owned, the gas suppliers will fill it for you, but not exchange it. Reason being, if they exchange it, the new cylinder won't be stamped "private owned," because they don't sell private owned tanks in the larger sizes. So if you have a larger cylinder, you have to drop it off, then they send it out (because they don't fill on site) and a week later, you go back and pick it up.In other words, a total waste of time.Everlast PA160-STH... and that's about it!
Reply:Originally Posted by MWaldenMy local welding supply house, owned by Praxair, tells me I cannot own a cylinder larger than the 80cf/90cf tanks.  I stood there and told them that they just swapped a cylinder for me that was 155cf that I own.  They kind of looked dumb founded.So I asked how I can get a larger cylinder and they said I can't unless I buy one that has owner papers.What is the real truth on cylinder ownership and how does one obtain cylinders that are larger than 125cf and actually get them filled?What about places such as Tractor Supply that fill argon tanks. Will they fill any size tank?  Do they fill other companies tanks for you?
Reply:If Airgas had the best prices, their cylinders would mostly come back to them. I think Airgas is just trying to monopolize the cylinder/gas market to keep gas prices artificially high. Sorry if I just stated the obvious.
Reply:I've dealt with the bottled gas supplier runaround for years and must say that it's quite tiresome to keep up on their latest scam.  I own nearly 20 cylinders and for the last 10 years haven't been able to use a single one of them because of the gas monopolies and their policies.  We just moved to a new locale and the first supplier I spoke with was SUPER accommodating.  The owner met with me personally and said that they don't care what's on the neck ring, where it came from, or what size it is...if I bring it they will fill it.  They also offered TIG supplies at cost because of the wait since they don't stock them normally.It was a case of Mom & Pop earning a customer for life and goes to show you that good businesses are still out there.  I will be singing their praises forever more...and that takes a lot.  Anyone in Ohio, hit me up for details.
Reply:Crosswire3, WOW !  You got a real winner there. They will have my business for sure. Not to mention I would tell everyone I knew about them. Maybe post there name and location for other members too.
Reply:I own a 200 and an aluminum 80 size tank. I don't get them swapped out because they don't have company markings on them and I want my tank back. Any of the gas suppliers around Baton Rouge, LA will fill them as long as they are certified tanks. Just had both of my tanks recertified.MillerMatic 212, Lincoln Precision TIG 225, Hypertherm 45XP
Reply:Originally Posted by MWalden....What about places such as Tractor Supply that fill argon tanks. Will they fill any size tank?  Do they fill other companies tanks for you?
Reply:You can own any size tank your heart desires, it is a matter of who will fill them.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Originally Posted by TozziWeldingYou can own any size tank your heart desires, it is a matter of who will fill them.
Reply:Airgas sold me a 250cf oxygen cylinder, and a #4 Acetylene cylinder.  I guess it all depends on your relationship to the people you buy gas from and what they have available to sell.  I can exchange them when I need to and do not have to wait for them to be filled.  I don’t think its so much that one company does and does not, but rather which companies have cylinders available to sell and which ones don’t.  GarLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:I own two 160 cu.ft argon cylinders that are marked "customer-owned". That was the limit for Airgas at one time, at least when I bought them in Sacramento, CA. I've since switched to another supplier that takes them in exchange with no problem. I like that size since I have to transport them to exhange and they are plenty big enough. I wouldn't want anything smaller, though. I also have a 20# CO2 bottle which is customer-owned and is equivalent to a 160 cu. ft. cylinder. (approx. 8 cu.ft/ pound). The customer-owned size will vary from supplier to supplier. I understand that Praxair has a smaller limit for customer-owned in my area. Airgas got too expensive so I changed to a company that is much more reasonable on their prices. The best thing to do is shop around until you find a supplier that will give you the sizes that you want. Too small a bottle and you will be exchanging more often at $4.00 a gallon to drive there, unless you can get them to deliver.Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:I picked up a 50lb CO2 bottle a while back, haven't had to fill it yet. I wonder if Airgas will do so.Lincoln 175HD
Reply:Originally Posted by MWaldenAnd that is what I do not understand in this "free" society. Argon is inert.  I would understand more if it were oxygen or acetylene, this is just inert gas.
Reply:Originally Posted by pepiI think it has to do more with the age, read that as condition of the cylinder. Using one source kind of gives the sourcer an idea of what he has going in and out the door. If the supplier was getting tanks that were consistently out of date then he would be on the hook to replace them in order to maintain his stock for rotation. So I do not blame them for scrutinizing the customers and tanks. There are just to many people in our "free society" with big ideas of how to cheat the system, and that just raises the price on the regular guy.Granted a welder out at a job sight far from home this would be a huge inconvenience, but a pro would plan ahead and be ready. Murphy's law can always FK the best plan, but that is life and we all deal with that one.Big picture
Reply:Interesting.  I own all my bottles (all different sizes and gases) and all have my company name stenciled on them.  I get them filled at AirGas in Toldeo on Enterprise Blvd (thats their regional compressor facility btw).  No issue.  I never exchange anything.  My bottles are my bottles.  Plus they look good.  I like good looking (not beat to hell multi color, banged around) bottles.I've seen bottles that look camo they have so much different color paint.
Reply:Originally Posted by SidecarFlipInteresting.  I own all my bottles (all different sizes and gases) and all have my company name stenciled on them.  I get them filled at AirGas in Toldeo on Enterprise Blvd (thats their regional compressor facility btw).  No issue.  I never exchange anything.  My bottles are my bottles.  Plus they look good.  I like good looking (not beat to hell multi color, banged around) bottles.I've seen bottles that look camo they have so much different color paint.
Reply:Originally Posted by MWaldenThe first time I went in with my brand new bottle the first thing they did was paint a nice stupid pretty pink or red dot on it to mark it as owner bottle.I was told that if you bought an aluminum bottle, they would have no problem declaring it an "owner bottle".  That was from someone that had an aluminum bottle and swears up and down they fill it for him  - not exchange!Given the source, I personally would only give it a 50/50 chance of being true, but maybe if you ask the question another way you get a different answer...As for sizes.  Maryland seems to max at 80CF.  Its not a state law, just an agreement between gas distributers.  I will say that generally speaking that agreements among vendors - especially on things like price are generally illegal (Federal trade law).  Good luck gettings someone to look into it.I know in West Virginia you can get a 120 on exchange (I had one with an air-gas sticker and the name of the LWS traced back to WV.  To far of a drive for me so I sold it with a welder.)Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellSeems like the neck ring should be sufficient, no?
Reply:As a company we have many times wondered whether it pays off to handle customer owned cylinders. We take them in and then have to track them through the whole fill process. This is very tedious and in the end not cost effective for us.
Reply:Ever wonder why gas cylinders are shaped like suppositories?"USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by joshuabardwellAlternatively, they can just fill while the customer waits, but then the labor goes way up.
Reply:now, I understand the thought of "what's mine is mine" but as far as tanks are concerned, it's on a welder doing industrial work, even if it's in your how. It's not a show peice. It's a tool. What's it matter if the paint is dirty or chipped so long as it gets the job done? Yes, one would like to make sure that it's been tested and is safe before pick up. but it was my understanding that the safeties were checked when refilled. At least that was the impression that my LWS gave me.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammeres, one would like to make sure that it's been tested and is safe before pick up. but it was my understanding that the safeties were checked when refilled. At least that was the impression that my LWS gave me.
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammernow, I understand the thought of "what's mine is mine" but as far as tanks are concerned, it's on a welder doing industrial work, even if it's in your how. It's not a show peice. It's a tool. What's it matter if the paint is dirty or chipped so long as it gets the job done? Yes, one would like to make sure that it's been tested and is safe before pick up. but it was my understanding that the safeties were checked when refilled. At least that was the impression that my LWS gave me.
Reply:"We only sell up to a certain size because this is an industry standard"Hog wash!It is not an industry standard it is COMPANY policy.I can walk in to Airgas or Praxair and buy a 155 cf argon any day they are open.It may have a blank neck ring or it may have a name on it......if I pay cash and walk out they no longer have any claim of ownership.
Reply:Originally Posted by vwguy3"We only sell up to a certain size because this is an industry standard"Hog wash!It is not an industry standard it is COMPANY policy.I can walk in to Airgas or Praxair and buy a 155 cf argon any day they are open.It may have a blank neck ring or it may have a name on it......if I pay cash and walk out they no longer have any claim of ownership.
Reply:So that proves that even company policy is different from store to store.
Reply:Originally Posted by MWaldenAnd I just got off the phone with my local AirGas store and they will not sell anything over an 85cf tank.  Any larger has to be a lease/rental on a monthly or yearly basis.The yearly rate on a 125cf tank is $75.00 and a $45.00 fill charge.  No other charges involved and no limitations on refills for the cost of refill.They said they would accept my owner tank, the 155cf tank, and send it for refill and give it back to me and that could take up to three weeks turnaround time.
Reply:I've exchanged  my customer-owned argon cylinders at Airgas and now at another company numerous times without so much as a comment. Some of the cylinders are marked "customer owned" on the neck ring and others are just blank. It's possible that some companies want to keep the customer-owned cylinders separate from the leased ones so that they can charge the customer if he turns one in that runs out of time on the period for a hydrostatic test. That doesn't seem to be the issue in my area. They will take cylinders in and give me an full exchange without a whimper. It must vary by company and location. We are much better off here in the US with regard to welding gases. In the UK, there aren't any customer-owned tahks. They are leased and closely checked for hydro and other issued and it's very expensive to pay the fees. I've talked to many people in the UK about this. It must be tough for a hobby welder like I am over there.Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:wow some of these stories are fairly scary about tanks. Im glad my local mom and pop shop not only fills on site for most gasses but also has no issues with swapping my 280 and 330 tanks with no issues. There usually in good shape not 100 coats of flaking paint.
Reply:I own one 125 sized Argon tank and one 150 sized C25 which I bought at my local Airgas store a few years back ( both marked Airgas not customer owned ). I also own a 300 Oxy & 140 Acetylene which I bought from a used equipment dealer, empty for $65 each. When looking for my Oxy/Acetylene tanks I purposely sought out Airgas marked tanks for the ease of swapping them out. As long as I take an Airgas marked tank in there, they don't check dates or ask questions, they just pull it off my truck and give me one of the same size back no problem. So I guess one could argue they aren't technically  "customer owned" since marked Airgas and probably couldn't take them anywhere else to be filled, but there isn't but one other LWS in my area (Airgas bought out the other two). But back to the original topic they sold me a 125 & 150 tank with their name on it. Haven't had any experience with " Customer Owned" marked tanks.My toys:Mobile Set Up    Miller Bobcat 225NT    Oxy Acetylene cutting set up    Red D Arc 12VS wire feeder    Spoolmate 3035 spoolgun     Scratch Start TIG DCMiller Elite auto hood
Reply:Originally Posted by arcrayI own one 125 sized Argon tank and one 150 sized C25 which I bought at my local Airgas store a few years back ( both marked Airgas not customer owned). . . . . . But back to the original topic they sold me a 125 & 150 tank with their name on it. Haven't had any experience with " Customer Owned" marked tanks.
Reply:Cash not leased.   I found my receipt for the 125 sized Argon, sale date 2/01/08. I paid $174.76 for the bottle and 34.64 for gas that was in it, before taxes. I can't find the 150 C25 receipt at the moment, but I bought it about a year earlier and paid around $150 for the bottle give or take if I remember correctly.          In my other post I said  "I bought a few years back", I guess it's more like a few plus a few ( 5 & 1/2 years ago). lolLast edited by arcray; 08-21-2013 at 12:44 AM.My toys:Mobile Set Up    Miller Bobcat 225NT    Oxy Acetylene cutting set up    Red D Arc 12VS wire feeder    Spoolmate 3035 spoolgun     Scratch Start TIG DCMiller Elite auto hood
Reply:I bought a 150 cf size from airgas about one, two or three years ago."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:I just bought an 85 cf from Praxair which, along with our small, local, LWS, is the only welding-special shop in the Antelope Valley here in Southern California, and paid $250 for it with 2500 lbs of C25. The folks there were friendly enough but had I my druthers, I'd have gone with our local California Welding Supply. They didn't have any spare 85s to sell, hence my trip to Praxair. When the gas is gone though, I'll be headed back to our local LWS for a refill at $25. There's something I find rewarding about supporting a mom n' pop store that relies on the community to put food on their family table. Aside from the gas being cheaper, the prices on the other supplies are maybe 10% or so more. Ten percent to see a family run business succeed. Seems like a fair price to me.
Reply:So the big 330's I left out in NYS at my buddies, I can haul them out here because the lawsuit says I no longer need to say they are leased every time I take them to a different Airgas location?I have owned them since I too bought out a small business back in the mid 80's.
Reply:Originally Posted by jlamesI just bought an 85 cf from Praxair which, along with our small, local, LWS, is the only welding-special shop in the Antelope Valley here in Southern California, and paid $250 for it with 2500 lbs of C25. The folks there were friendly enough but had I my druthers, I'd have gone with our local California Welding Supply. They didn't have any spare 85s to sell, hence my trip to Praxair. When the gas is gone though, I'll be headed back to our local LWS for a refill at $25. There's something I find rewarding about supporting a mom n' pop store that relies on the community to put food on their family table. Aside from the gas being cheaper, the prices on the other supplies are maybe 10% or so more. Ten percent to see a family run business succeed. Seems like a fair price to me.
Reply:I rented a 150 from my LWS in December.  They told me they could sell me a used cylinder for $150.  They charged $150 for a security deposit for the tank I rented.  If I don't take the cylinder back I will not get my deposit back.  They can still claim they own the tank since a welding supplier name is on the neck ring, but the tank has been paid for by the security deposit.  If every leased tank has a security deposit, they can make money twice or more on the same tank tank if they "confiscate" it using the neck ring to prove ownership.