my biggest project so far

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So im finally doing it, i'm building the table i've wanted since i bought my welder last year.  you guys thought it was something bigger? haha sorry to let you down, but this is MY biggest project so far.just wanted some opinions. i'm planning on going to get the framing materials tomorrow and was looking for opinions. top will be 4' x 8' either 1/4" or 3/8" but i'll decide that after the frame is built.my question is, what should i use for the legs and top of the frame? i was thinking square tubes for the legs and rectangle for the top frame with angle down the middle as supports to support the top but i'm def. not sure what thickness to get. i've seen many threads but everyone has different ways of making their tables. please give me options and of course your opinions. thank you.
Reply:4' x 8'? why so big?Welding/Fab Pics: www.UtahWeld.com
Reply:thats the size their sheet comes in and its more expensive if i cut it. also, i'd rather have a table thats too big than one that ends up being too small.
Reply:The 4' X 8' size is a good one if you have enough space in your workshop, my only worries for that is the thickness you will use for your table top, may I suggest getting a 1/2" thick for your top so there won't be any problem when it comes to warping when it gets delivered. Wow that's gonna be one hell of a table top, I just can't imagine how heavy it would be.I would like to share with you my current project too. I'm working on a welding table too and for my legs, I used 4" X 4" X 1/4"  H-Beam/I-Beam which I luckily got from a scrap yard plus used some also for horizontal support and for the top frame I used also some 1/4" X 4" X 4" angle iron bars and the rest of the horizontal supports. It may look or sound over kill but I was just making sure my legs and frames are sturdy enough to carrry my 1/2" thick tabletop that measures 40" X 84", quite heavy too.   Hope this helps and clear some pictures for your build, GOOD LUCK !!!
Reply:damn thats some table your building.mine really isn't a "welding table" it just a work bench that will also be used for welding on but mostly for other things, thats why i'm not going with a thicker top. i also plan on putting casters on it so i can move it around, i forgot to mention that before.i thought about using 4x4 square for the legs but some said that would be way over kill, they told me to go with 2x2 or 3x3 at most. i wanted to go with square for the frame because it would be easier to join and weld. it would also look very clean. how tall are you making yours? i was thinking 3' and being efficient about my material usage because i would like to not waste too much material.
Reply:You may find with a wide table, shorter is better so you can reach out into the main part of the table.36" is the usual height of kitchen counters, but that's way too high for me to work off a standard 4x8 sheet of plywood and be able to reach anything 1/2 way across. My saw horses at work are much shorter, maybe 28" and even then reaching the middle isn't easy. If you start building largish projects on a table, figure it needs to get lower or you'll need to stand on a ladder to work.Note some of this is personal dependent. My old boss was 6'-7". The kitchen counter tops in his place are all 4" higher ( we put the cabinets up on 2x4's on edge to gain height) to accommodate his stature. A cheap sheet of plywood is a good way to get a feel how tall your table should be. Set it up on some short saw horses and then see how it works for you. Then start adding a few "shims" using 2x's to raise the height and see if the height still works for projects you have in mind, especially at the center of the table..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:thanks. thats actually what came to mind when i decided to build a table. a few months ago my dad and i built a shed in out back yard and our workbench was a 4x8 sheet of plywood and it worked great. at times it was difficult to reach things but i had crap all over the bench so thats what i get. tomorrow i'll go out and take some measurements. do you guys know the height of average bar stools? i would like to be able to at least use those so i don't have to sit on the ground while i work on little projects haha.
Reply:I have a short drafting stool I use at my 2x4 tig table in the garage. Even it would be too short to use on a 4x8 sheet. I think the tig table is about 36" high. It's sitting on top of a roller cabinet.I don't sit at big tables. Big tables are for large projects and usually that means I need to stand. Actually I find a 3' wide table to be a better size. I've got a couple sheets of 3' wide x 5'- 8' long plywood that are my normal "work" table tops. 3' is wide enough to reach the center easily from both sides and still work on something low at the center. 4' is only convenient because it's a full size sheet. If I need a bunch of sheets, then I'll work off a 4' piece, but if I'm bringing a sheet just to use as a table, It will be one of the 3' ones. 5' wide is nice because it's the cross width on my truck, and the 6' wide ones make a nice "shelf" across the back to load other cr@p off the floor and gain more room for extra tools. There's almost always a 3'x5' "table" on the truck full time lashed against one wall of the body so I have a work surface as needed..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Hey there again superwelder,Thought I'd share with you  a sketchup of my table, this will not be the final but in general this is how probably it will appear coz  as I go along the project would think of changing this or that or will add this or that. It will be 3 ft in height with heavy duty casters. Also thinking of adding some 2ton hydraulic jack at its legs that will serve as my leveler and lifter, so I can raise it up or lower it down.    Well nothing is final here until it is completely done, just a basic design here. I'm actually 50% or so done with this project.
Reply:i would go with 1/2 inch for a small table 3/4 to 1 inch for a big one its nice when you clamp things that it stays flatMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:If you cant go thick, I would run plenty of stiffeners underneath. Basicaly so that plate rests on a completely flat surface on its own.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:You could always use schedule 40 pipe for legs anywhere from 2 1/2'' to 4''. On a large tablemeaty legs look better any will hold anything.     Sure you don't want to get thicker top but smaller ?  I guess you must have plenty of room in shop. with big table you can have all kind of stuff on it and still have room to work .
Reply:thanks guys. ya i know its a big table but i can deal with it. never thought about using pipe for legs, my main concern about using odd shapes for the frame is how will they come together?flat surfaces mate to flat surfaces very nicely but wouldn't i have to notch pipe?
Reply:roberts: thats a great design, that would be a bad *** table.
Reply:I built a new table in January, my table is 5'x10'x30" tall. 1/2" top. 2"x6"x.120" frame, two long ways and 5 cross ways. Legs 3"x3"x.120" with 6" swivel casters. I love it. If you've got the room, go for the 5'x10', there are lots of projects that are 48" wide, I've already had two jobs that would not have fit on a 4x8. I have no trouble reaching the center. No holes or slots or anything, just nice and flat. Being able to rely on the flatness is my favorite part.The things I would change on the next one: I'd go with a 5/8" top, change the frame to 2"x8"x.120", and 8" casters.Last edited by fortyonethirty; 06-28-2012 at 04:29 PM.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:thanks for the reply. i think anything bigger than 4x8 would be too big. looks like your building a pretty HD table. if i go with square tubing what wall thickness should i go for?
Reply:ok, so i took some measurements and it came out to 32" tall. that might just work. so i'll make 28" legs with 4" casters. still undecided on the framing though :/is there a huge difference between say a 4x4 and a 3x3? i'm new to metal working, if this was wood i would have been done weeks ago with no questions lol.thanks guys.
Reply:Ok man, if you are bent on the 4' x 8'  table top which is only 3/8" in thickness, then maybe you should strengthen your top frame, say 2" x 6" with some 2" x 4" horizontal slots spread/ welded along the inside frame just to make sure your table top will not sag in the middle.With regards to the legs perhaps, a 3" x 3" will do but of course a 4" x 4" is much better, but both sizes will do as long as its walls are about 1/4 or 5/16 of an inch thick tubular.Going back to the main frame, if you decide to use a rectangular tubing of  2" x 3" or a 2" x 4" in size may I suggest adding two more legs in the middle, giving you a total of 6 legs. I will assure you, having 6 legs on that stretch of 8', will provide you of no warping or sagging in the middle and you can even  do some tap dancing on top of your table. ...LOL
Reply:that sounds great. thank you, i think i'll go pick it all up today if i have time.the reason i wanted to use rectangle tubing for the top frame was because i thought it was less likely to bend, is this right?
Reply:Tubing is definitely the way to go. The box sections resist twist which will help keep your table flat. Channels and angles do not resist twisting nearly as much. When chosing the size of tube remember that steel prices are almost total based on weight, so going to a large size with thinner walls will get you more bang for your buck in terms of stiffness, than small sizes with thick walls. I would not go under .120 though, for durability.I have four legs on my table and am glad I only have four because I move my table a lot, and my shop floor if kind of rough, the table would teeter with two more legs. If it was a stationary table, I'd go for six.My top is 1/2" and my frame is enough. For 3/8" I'd add more cross members. Attached ImagesIan TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:I built a 5'x10' and love it.  Although it does collect a lot of crap but I have built stairs, trailer frames, etc.    Height is an important factor.  I am 6'2" and I like my work surfaces at 34.5".Here is the thread that has more pics: http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=52756Here is a good way to pick the thickness of your top.1. Price out 1/4 plate in the dimension that you want.2. After receiving price, check your pulse and blood pressure.3. If pulse and pressure show no signs of cardiac arrest, increase thickness by 1/8 inch.4. Repeat steps 1 -3 until your pulse and blood pressure indicate you are going into cardiac arrest. 5. Reduce thickness by 1/8 inch and purchase materialThat's how I did it and I ended up at 1/2 inch. Attached ImagesJay DavisAWS-CWIC-60 Specialty Welding ContractorLoving husband, and father of two boys (
Reply:Oh, and I used 3x3x3/16 sq. tubing for the legs and 2x3x3/16 rect. tubing for the frame.  Here is a pic Attached ImagesJay DavisAWS-CWIC-60 Specialty Welding ContractorLoving husband, and father of two boys (
Reply:I had very good luck with a 1/4" top that has cross bracing underneath.  The key is to build  a SQUARE PLANAR frame  Then just tack the top to it, don't use big welds.3" square tubing 11ga is adequate if you make sure to box it in or gusset it.  Steel is getting quite expensive so we don't have the luxury of heavy bulds anymore.  It's more about designing for stability nowdays I guess"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:thanks for the great pics.Fortyonethirty: thats the exact design i had in mind.Jbyrd, i like the sizes if square and rectangle you used. if you put your table and fortyonethirtys table together you have exactly what i had in my mind.how much of a overhang do you guys have? i was thinking about 2" but that might be too small. i'm trying to figure out how much material i will need so i'm not going back over and over.
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtyTubing is definitely the way to go. The box sections resist twist which will help keep your table flat. Channels and angles do not resist twisting nearly as much. When chosing the size of tube remember that steel prices are almost total based on weight, so going to a large size with thinner walls will get you more bang for your buck in terms of stiffness, than small sizes with thick walls. I would not go under .120 though, for durability.I have four legs on my table and am glad I only have four because I move my table a lot, and my shop floor if kind of rough, the table would teeter with two more legs. If it was a stationary table, I'd go for six.My top is 1/2" and my frame is enough. For 3/8" I'd add more cross members.If you are going to spend the money to build a nice 4x8 table 1/2"plate is the minimum thickness I would use, thicker if you can afford it. Also, 5-6" caster would also be minimum size. The bigger the wheel, the easier it is to roll around. I have 5" on mine and they do well, 6" would be better. Buy the highest weigh rating caster you can afford. I also have synthetic tires on my casters and I do like them. Plain steel wheels are cheaper, but they hang up on every little rock/shaving/wire in the shop. I have two 40"x6' tables at the moment, mine are 37 3/4" high (I am 6'1"). They match the height of my workbench (actually my great grand fathers bench), my saw table, etc. Makes it easy to expand, or use as outfeed tables. 4" legs are better than smaller sections. I used 4" sch 80 pipe on mine, as that was what I had. The stronger the legs, the stouter the table, and the less likely it is to distort the legs if you are wheeling it through the shop and hit a piece of scrap steel and stop abruptly.  I didn't cut any slots, bore any holes in mine and they have served me well for years. Make sure the table edge extends past the frame at least as long as your clamps are deep. Don't mount a vise on it, use a receiver type setup instead, so it doesn't get in the way of long projects.
Reply:Overhang on mine is 4". I ended up with this number based on cutting up the 20' sticks of tubing to the maximum size possible. If tubing came in 21' lengths, I'd have done 3". For a 3/8" top, I think 2" or 2 1/2" would be about right.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:thank you for the reply. the reason i don't want to go with a thicker top is because of the weight and cost. for me, i really won't ever need it, i'm used to using 1/2" plywood haha.thanks on the vice idea i'll def. do that. i'm sure theres a little "wobble" in that type of setup, does that get in the way or bother you?
Reply:thanks fortyonethirty. i don't think i'll be able to take peices that long home in my pickup haha. if i have the legs 2" in and they are 4x4,that means i will be making 3' sections between the legs like in your drawing but a little longer if i use 2x3  for the top of the long end of the table, if that makes any sense.
Reply:Originally Posted by superwelderthanks fortyonethirty. i don't think i'll be able to take peices that long home in my pickup haha.
Reply:funny you mention that. i actually do have a rack but i need to do some welding and fitting on it to make it work. i figured i'd just get all my measurement in advance and get shorter lengths like you mentioned. i've carried up to 16' 2x4 and 2x6 but i'd rather not haul anything quite that long if i don't absolutely have to.does steel come in the same lengths as lumber and are they always cut exact or is it like buying a 2x4 where it can be up to 1/4" longer.
Reply:hey jbyrd, just noticed your in NorCal. where exactly? i'm in elk grove.
Reply:Hey superwelder,I guess with all these replies and inputs for your table project, you can't go wrong anymore, all you have to do probably is to list down the desired dimensions/sizes for the materials needed and then start doing your workbench, GO GO GO !!!    start wendin !!!,  LOL
Reply:thats the hardest part haha.
Reply:Steel tubing comes a bit oversize, usually about 241". The steel yard will usually cut things up for you, but sometimes the guys at the yard aren't real precise, so I'd have them cut everything 1" over. Most yards will cut things in half for free, cut to length will probably have a price per cut.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:so my dad and i sat down and designed this thing to come up with a list of materials. this is what we have.it will be 32" tall on 4" casterslegs will be 25" 4x4 x 3/16top frame will be 2x3 and will sit on top of the boxed 4x4 so it will equal 28" + 4" casters = 32"in between we will have 2x3x40" supports every 16". this should give is a 2" over hang on all sidesi'm just not sure what thickness i should go with on the top frame. should i do 3/16 or will 1/8 suffice? hopefully that all makes sense to you guys.also, i didn't know they could be that far off when cutting. i mean 40" is 40" how do you mess that up any more than the with of the blade cutting it???? i was going to have them cut my 40" pieces but IDK now. like i said, i'm used to working with wood so if its a little big or small its easy to do something about it but steel on the other hand....Last edited by superwelder; 06-30-2012 at 04:18 PM.
Reply:Okay, so I made a model of what you described. Attached ImagesIan TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:The model shows 3/8" top, and the other sizes you mentioned, except I made a mistake on the spacing of the cross pieces, there should be one more. I'll make some suggestions.1. The legs are bigger than necessary. When you put a caster on the leg, you negate any stiffness the leg may have imparted to the table. Even locking casters will flex and move long before the leg would, which makes a really strong leg pointless. The legs on my table are 3x3x.120 and I've never even noticed them flex, even while rolling the table across my bumpy floor.2. The frame should be bigger. When I use my big mallet and adjust something, I notice my table bounce a bit and vibrate, I wish I had gone one size bigger on the frame. Mine is 2x6x.120. 3. 4" casters will be taller than 4", the size listed will be the size of the wheel itself.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Here's a link to a calculator that will let you know the strength of different rectangle tubes. http://www.engineersedge.com/calcula...re_case_10.htmI find it very useful to compare different sizes and wall thicknesses. The moment of inertia is good for determining how springy the tube will be when pressing down in the center of a beam, the higher the number the less the beam will sag under load.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:On steel yard cutting material. The two yards near me both use great big abrasive saws to cut tubes. The cuts from these have been far from square. Getting the length within an 1/8" is easy, but I am really picky when it comes to building a table. So would not trust anyone to make the final cuts. I'm not sure what equipment your local yard will have, but mine also has a big band saw which makes good cuts. I've had some 8x8 tubes cut by them before and they did turn out nice, but each cut cost $15.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Thank you so much for taking your time to do that, its exactly what i hand in mind. i'm actually thinking about using 3x3 now. it will be boxed on both ends so plenty of surface are for the top and caster to sit on. would it be stronger to go with a 2x3 frame that is 3/16 or 2x4 that is thinner? meaning, do you get more strength from the material thickness or the overall size itself?i know the caster itself will be 4" but i'm not going to measure exactly how tall it will be. i'm assuming when i'm done it will be 32" +/- 1"again. thank you very much. what program do you use to make these models? it would be nice to find something like this to play around with.
Reply:The program is call sketchup. It's free. you can download it here: http://sketchup.google.com/intl/en/I have attached the file of your table.On tube strength. If you start with a 2x6x.120 rectangle tube you get an MOI of 8.27. Then double the wall thickness, to 2x6x.250, you get MOI of 15.2, so roughly twice as stiff, and twice the price.If you start with 2x6x.120 and then change to 2x8x.120, you get an MOI of 17.4. So more than twice as stiff, and only 25% more in price.In your case: 2x3x.188 has MOI of 2.05 and about $5.19/foot, and 2x4x.120 has MOI of 2.97 and about $4.29/foot.So that means it will be 50% stronger and cost 20% less. The price numbers are estimates only, you'll have to call the steel yard to get real prices, hopefully they will be slightly less. Attached Filessuperweldertable2.zip (8.8 KB, 15 views)Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:thank you. i'm not too familiar with steel pricing, hopefully they will be helpful at the steel yard. thank you for your help and the sketch.
Reply:ok guys, plans changed a little for the materials but the design is the same. i'll have details with pics as soon as im done. just have one more thing to do before i finish and thats the paint.what do you guys recommend for the frame and underside of the top? i was thinking POR15 but thats pricey. is there anything in a can that is somewhat durable and will kill and prevent rust?also, what do you recommend for the top to keep it from rusting? i wanted to smooth it out and put something on it to keep surface rust from forming. i've read about all kinds of thing from burning oil into it to a coat of WD40.thank you