Dirty Aluminum Beads

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I started using my inverter TIG, and I'm unable to lay a bead down without there being brown/white powder on the top of the bead after the weld.  When I see the shiny puddle form, there is always some scum floating at the top of it.  Thermal Arc TA 185WP17 Torch1/16 Ceriated1/8 stick outTorch angle varies between 0 and 30*Gas lensFoot Pedal? Series Aluminum coupons bought on eBay, .060 thickness (reportedly 4000 series)1/16 and 1/8 filler rod, 4043 and 5356Argon varied between 12-17 cfhMachine set at:AC30 amp hotstart60 amp peakAC freq 60-100EN 50-90%All coupons cleaned with stainless brush.  Coupons and filler rod wiped with acetone.  I didn't have time to post pics.  I was able to run nice beads, but I got alot of "green haze" while welding.  I have approximately 20' of gas hose between my machine and the tank.  With the same tank of Argon, I was able to run clean beads with my Synchro 250 and the same torch, cup, and lens.  I did not try it on other Aluminum.   The coupons were advertised as "Weldable".  They have a shiny appearance and don't look anodized.Last edited by Drf255; 11-14-2011 at 05:31 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:I also notice almost no Aluminum etching around the beads.  Turning the EN down resulted in significant Tungsten Balling whereas having it up did not.  Will post pics.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:It looks gas related. Sometimes you get an argon bottle that is not clean argon, and sometimes they give you a mix that does not work like 95/5 with C02. That always leaves residue. For a test, run a bead with no cleaning. Then, run a bead with scrubbing with simple sandpaper, no acetone. See what you get; test some different things as you have been. Good luck!And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Can you get that black stuff off with a brush after the fact?  I would say it could very well be a gas related issue...looks odd.JoeMiller 140 Autoset (2010)Miller Syncrowave 250 (1996)
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255 Series Aluminum coupons bought on eBay, .060 thickness (reportedly 4000 series)
Reply:Gas is the same as with Synchro.  I was wondering if the legth of the line was interfering with the actual flow amount.  The Synchro had about 6ft total gas line of larger diameter.  This has at least 35' of total line.  I was afraid to turn the gas up any higher.  Im gonna try other material as suggested.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Originally Posted by joebieCan you get that black stuff off with a brush after the fact?  I would say it could very well be a gas related issue...looks odd.
Reply:I'm not sure why, but the actual metal kind of doesn't look like aluminum.  All of my AL just looks different.  Now I have some tin sheet that looks that way...  "brushed" look is kind of making me think it looks "off"JoeMiller 140 Autoset (2010)Miller Syncrowave 250 (1996)
Reply:Do you have a ball type flowmeter?  If you do, the ball will tell the story.  A gage style meter can lie to you.  Can you verify that you have gas coming out the torch?Have you tried the Synchro with this metal, or tried welding different metal?"Great spirits have always encountered violent oppostion from mediocre minds."  --  Albert Einstein
Reply:i hate to be the one to say this..... but is it galvanized steel by chance?
Reply:Quick way to tell, although not fool proof... is it magnetic?JoeMiller 140 Autoset (2010)Miller Syncrowave 250 (1996)
Reply:The edges of the coupons would indicate that he is, in fact, dealing with aluminum.  The quality/series is another question.The thing that bothers me is the near total absence of an "etch zone" adjacent to the weld bead.  That would lead me to think that he has his machine set with little or no DC+ (the cleaning portion of the AC waveform).The "green haze" is typical when you dip your tungsten and continue to try to weld.  You might get by a little with mild steel/SS, but you're not going to with aluminum.  Stop and clean up that tungsten.Not trying to bash, but what I see is so typical of most new tiggers.  Trying to run before they learn to walk.  Develop the timing, feeding rod, heat control on steel before moving to aluminum.  I see NO consistency in any of the beads.A tip for a "quick check" of your gas is as follows.Take a well cleaned coupon of aluminum.  SS brush and acetone wipedown.Hold your torch over the coupon, maintaining a 1/16"-1/8" arc length.  Throttle up to start an arc.  Increase the amps til a puddle forms.  Move the puddle in a small circle.  Back off the amps til arc goes out.If you've got a gas problem it will show up here.  No other potential issues introduced such as dirty/contaminated filler, contaminated tungsten, etc.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIThe edges of the coupons would indicate that he is, in fact, dealing with aluminum.  The quality/series is another question.The thing that bothers me is the near total absence of an "etch zone" adjacent to the weld bead.  That would lead me to think that he has his machine set with little or no DC+ (the cleaning portion of the AC waveform).The "green haze" is typical when you dip your tungsten and continue to try to weld.  You might get by a little with mild steel/SS, but you're not going to with aluminum.  Stop and clean up that tungsten.Not trying to bash, but what I see is so typical of most new tiggers.  Trying to run before they learn to walk.  Develop the timing, feeding rod, heat control on steel before moving to aluminum.  I see NO consistency in any of the beads.A tip for a "quick check" of your gas is as follows.Take a well cleaned coupon of aluminum.  SS brush and acetone wipedown.Hold your torch over the coupon, maintaining a 1/16"-1/8" arc length.  Throttle up to start an arc.  Increase the amps til a puddle forms.  Move the puddle in a small circle.  Back off the amps til arc goes out.If you've got a gas problem it will show up here.  No other potential issues introduced such as dirty/contaminated filler, contaminated tungsten, etc.
Reply:Synchro Beads:Top Bead, the most EN.  The bottom, the most EPOther Beads Last edited by Drf255; 11-14-2011 at 12:56 PM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:It's gotta be the metal..  It maybe not a pure aluminumJoeMiller 140 Autoset (2010)Miller Syncrowave 250 (1996)
Reply:FYI- not sure if you know this but the TA's cleaning % is opposite the MillerEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1FYI- not sure if you know this but the TA's cleaning % is opposite the Miller
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255I know.  I find it odd to set up.  I went as high as 10 and as low as 65 (by the TA scale).  Not getting cleaning.  I think its not a weldable alloy of aluminum.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88If it was a non weldable alloy like a 2xxx or 7xxx, it should crack pretty easily.  Try a butt weld and break it, then post the results.But the weld with higher EP looks like everything is functioning correctly, meaning its probably just as the seller described, though on second thought 4000 series sheet is rarer than 3 or 5.
Reply:More pics, beads brushed one side:Prior SW Beads:TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Top Bead Known weldable aluminumbottom, the coupons.I started the arc and moved it in a circle, then ran a beadWithout filler as SundownIII advised.  Could I have had bad gas all along?The horizontal arcs only have smuton the starts and stops.  I'm thinkin the whole problem is my lack of skill.  Last edited by Drf255; 11-16-2011 at 05:16 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:I'm going to fill a spare tank at another supplier.  I never get a startup with 2 clean puddles to connect.  It always looks peppered when I step on the pedal.  I'm not sure why the residue.  I varied the Ar flow between 10 to 20 cfh this time.  I did have similar issues with another torch and a standard cup as well.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Sorry for the multiple responses. Could it be moisture in the gas line?  This is my first time using a hose I purchased off eBay that was much older than it looked when it got here.I plan on running the new gas tank on a new hose and regulator and changing one variable each time if it works.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Is your pre-post flow set correctly and working?Try 1 sec pre/10sec post.Have we all gone mad?Bad gas or poor gas flow.That's not your only problem though.Have you practiced on steel to develop your consistency?Does that 185 have pulse?  If so, you may want to set it up to aid the development of your timing/consistency.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:The Welding Supply owner said "contaminated gas" when I showed him the coupon.  I have practiced on steel.  I know that the consistency is off, but the puddle doesnt flow right.  Im gonna see how the new bottle works.  Gonna try your test first.  I realize I have a lack of hood time.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Nice, I assume they are replacing, free?JoeMiller 140 Autoset (2010)Miller Syncrowave 250 (1996)
Reply:Originally Posted by joebieNice, I assume they are replacing, free?
Reply:A case of it being the arrow and not the indian:New Swirls next to POS beadBeads[IMG]http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af216/drf255/IMG_0255.jpg[/IMGTA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloIt looks gas related. Sometimes you get an argon bottle that is not clean argon, and sometimes they give you a mix that does not work like 95/5 with C02. That always leaves residue. For a test, run a bead with no cleaning. Then, run a bead with scrubbing with simple sandpaper, no acetone. See what you get; test some different things as you have been. Good luck!
Reply:I don't know how this "Bad Gas" syndrome happens but in all my years of tig welding it has never happened to me......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterI don't know how this "Bad Gas" syndrome happens but in all my years of tig welding it has never happened to me......zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255A case of it being the arrow and not the indian:New Swirls next to POS beadBeads[IMG]http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af216/drf255/IMG_0255.jpg[/IMG
Reply:Yes.  The guys a great guy.  I'm gonna go there tomorrow and see what he says.  He totally hooked me up with my first tank, but after hooking up this new one, I realized my original bottle was only filled to 1000-1200 psi.  The new one is over 2000.  First, I'm gonna hookup the same gauge and line I had been using to the new gas bottle and make sure they had nothing to do with it.  Nothing worse than calling someone out and being wrong.  If they're not good about it, I'll take my business elsewhere.  It's just that they're so close to me and have always been honest people when I dealt with them with beer gas.  I have tons to learn still, but I realize now that I never TIGd with clean gas.  I was always having to push a ton of filler rod into a puddle that had a small leading edge that was shiny, not a full puddle.  Looking back on my synchro beads, they weren't that clean either.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Cool thread, I can vouch for the aluminum. I sold it. When I was in school, I bought a full sheet from a local supplier so that I could be sure it was all the same and weldable. Used a bunch in school, and this was some of the left overs from that same sheet.Bad gas can happen... when I was in school be got a batch of bad gas, and ran into the same treatment from our vendor (they wouldn't stand behind it, and we got a new vendor). Still, bad gas has to be pretty rare, we probably went through nearly a hundred bottles of argon, and only had one bad bottle.Welds towards the end are getting better. Keep it up!Proud to support Reliable Sheet Metal Works, in Fullerton, CA.Full service sheet metal fabrication serving Orange County since 1926.http://www.reliablesheetmetal.com
Reply:I as well never really had a bad bottle of gas. Just last summer I did have a problem though and I am not sure what exactly caused it. I had moister in my regulator, not sure if it came from the bottle or when I had the regulator off when exchanging bottles. I took back the original bottle with still about 1900# in it and was given a new bottle. After trying the new bottle for awhile I was getting bad results yet which is why I tore into my regulator, found and cleaned out the moister and all was good after that.I told the guy at the store to let me know what they find with the "contaminated" bottle but he never heard anything about it. He also mentioned that out of the 15+ years he worked at the store this was only the second time he had someone come in and say they got bad gas.
Reply:I hooked up the regulator and gas line I was using to the old and new bottle and got the same results.  I did swirls on a coupon and labeled it for each gas, then I brought the tank and coupon to my supplier, who happens to be a fire extinguisher place and not a welding outfit.  His place actually does the pressure testing for the welding supply I got the second tank from.  I was as nice as possible, bordering on kissing a$$.  The guy said " I don't know anything about welding" and asked what kind of gas the other was.  I said "100% Argon, just what your tank is labeled".  He was less than happy about the whole thing.  I asked if he vacuums out the tanks, he said " twice". I even put out the excuse that maybe there was some humidity factors involved because I got the tank in July.  He was kind of a Dick.  We didn't talk price yet and I left the tank.  Practicing all that time with the $hit gas taught me alot about heat control and arc length.  With the new gas, I'm able to weld .060 aluminum tubing without a problem and with some dime stacks.  I still need plenty of practice though.Thanks again for all the help.  I hope the gas thing works out.Last edited by Drf255; 11-19-2011 at 07:31 AM.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Update:Gas replaced for free.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Nice!!  Best outcome you could hope for.It's sad that he was a dick to you in the first place.  Everyone makes mistakes, and sometimes it isn't even in your control.  But on the flip side, a lot of people are lookin for a free ride.JoeMiller 140 Autoset (2010)Miller Syncrowave 250 (1996)
Reply:He was the nicest guy ever when I showed to pick up the new tank today.  He has a lifetime customer now.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Since he's a fire extingusher guy, I'd guess he's having someone else supply the gas you are getting. He probably told his supplier he had a customer with bad gas and they simply gave him a new cylinder for free. He just passed it on to you.Never had a bad gas mix before personally, but have gotten a few cylinders that were either empty or low due to leaky valves most likely. My guy has never had an issue trading out a bad cylinder, even if I couldn't get back to him right away. Those couple times he's simply told me to use what I had to to get by until I could get in and swap out for a full one. Just part of good customer service to deal with issues that happen from time to time..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1You probably have enough of yer own bad gas. nyuck nyuck
Reply:Just read this thread for the first time today.As soon as I seen the pics I knew it was gas.It takes so little to make this happen. Also it takes a bit to flow all the bad stuff out as well. You gotta weld a bit and then it clears up. But the bad stuff contaminates instantly.In the last month our company has caught 6 bad argon 300's!!In the last 15 years I have had 4 runs like this. On tig aluminum it is pretty apparent when it happens, once you learn the signs.The hilarious part about it all is the shops down the road seldom catch it going on.My LWS has been having us test the "bad stuff" for them when they're not sure and we have found every one bad as well.I guess it requires skill and carefull attention to properly fill a bottle and keep it pure.Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:question to the OP how is that tungsten holding up on the aluminum with the inverter?I saw a video from Jody (welding tips and tricks) he compared all the tungstens on Al. and thebest one to stay sharp (setting the machine AC Balance correctly) the best one was the 2% lanthanatedBlue, I had good luck with staying sharp on aluminum running 3/16 tungsten.I have tried the gold one and red on aluminum but they dont hold on for too long.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWSince he's a fire extingusher guy, I'd guess he's having someone else supply the gas you are getting. He probably told his supplier he had a customer with bad gas and they simply gave him a new cylinder for free. He just passed it on to you.Never had a bad gas mix before personally, but have gotten a few cylinders that were either empty or low due to leaky valves most likely. My guy has never had an issue trading out a bad cylinder, even if I couldn't get back to him right away. Those couple times he's simply told me to use what I had to to get by until I could get in and swap out for a full one. Just part of good customer service to deal with issues that happen from time to time.
Reply:I'd like to think you had a bad cylinder, otherwise your vendor would've surely herd from other customers?  According to my wife, I consistently have bad gas...though it's had no affect in my welding per say."Steel is weak. What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?"- James Earl Jonesmiller 225 w/ 3035spoolmate, Lincoln sq wv 275 w/radiator, hypertherm 600 plasma cutter, other stuff
Reply:the cause of black stuff on there is from contamination on the tunsten tip. also cleaning the weld with a brush before you weld it will help you out. Ive been a welding for 4 years so far. I know what Im talking about.Welding is the best trade ever.
Reply:Originally Posted by welding_rulesthe cause of black stuff on there is from contamination on the tunsten tip. also cleaning the weld with a brush before you weld it will help you out. Ive been a welding for 4 years so far. I know what Im talking about.
Reply:FWIW, I also received a bottle of mislabeled Argon gas once from a major welding supply chain.  They happily replaced it.- "If ya can't be handsome, ya may as well be handy!"   HTP Invertig 201Lincoln Power Mig 255CLincoln SP125+Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38