Sloppy MIG stickout. Wire size to blame?

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Hi all,I recently set up my Weldpak 140HD for mig welding.  I'm using the .025 solid wire that came with the kit, and a matching smooth drive roll and contact tip.  Thing is, when I go to trim my wire for stickout, I notice that the wire will push in/pull out of the tip a bit.  I upped the tension, but had to back off a bit as it started putting a mean vibration in the wire.  The spool/brake is properly set and doesn't have slop.  The slop is all in the wire, which seems to slip a little in the drive roll and maybe the gun liner (which is meant to handle .025-.035).  Also, the wire feed seems smooth and consistent, it's just a matter of the "starting point"Is this slop normal when using such thin wire, or a smooth drive roll, or being on the bottom end of a gun liner's size range?  Should I be concerned?  I am getting a smooth sizzle while welding.
Reply:that sounds normal given you are on the small end of the for the liner size. I would not worry about it if its welding well.
Reply:From my limited experience with a couple dozen suitcase wire feeders and maybe 10 or so stand alone MIG welders, that sounds normal to me.  What I usually do is cut off slightly short, hold the desired distance for stickout and pull the trigger.  Fixes itself in an instantGordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:I don't cut my wire every time I pull the trigger.Only when I change the wire or have a problem.Tim Beeker.
Reply:You should have a bit of slack in the wire.  It is to be expected.  To improve your starts you can snip every time but few people do it.  As you snip, pull on the wire to remove the slack.  When the wire rolls start up again the wire has a running start before it starts the arc.  Tension on your rolls should be minimal ... only enough to feed properly.  People who overtighten pay for it in wire jams in the liner.
Reply:I'll double check that I haven't overdone the tension.  Also working on finishing with a proper stickout, I just need more practice.Glad to hear that slop is normal.  Thanks everyone
Reply:If I understand what your saying it's caused by " Space inside the liner"  wire size too small for the liner ID.......Can't really hurt anything I have used an .045 liner with .025and I think I noticed that deal but it welded fine......Longer the liner the more slack.  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Originally Posted by tnjindI don't cut my wire every time I pull the trigger.Only when I change the wire or have a problem.
Reply:Well I've been looking into a lot of "starting guides for weldors" kind of things.  From what I gather there are usually two reasons that newbies cut the stickout.1) the ball end left on the wire can cause more spatter and make it harder to start an arc (i have ground down my steel, so this isn't a big problem).  I noticed this problem more when I tried out flux-core wire.2) improper finishing of the weld by lifting the gun too soon.  It's like lifting your head when you shoot a cue ball or a rifle.  I've been working on that discipline, keeping the mig gun down for a few seconds...  sometimes I get excited and forget, then I trim my stickout (and check my crater)
Reply:If you are doing a test where stop starts are mandatory in the test specimen it is very wise to snip the wire before restarting... also if you snip at an angle the wire has more of a point which improves starting.  It is nit picking but when getting a job / continuing on the job is important you will sell your first born to pass.
Reply:I trim the stick out for pulsed spray.  If it does not make contact right away, It makes a mess.   I don't think I am a newbie any more.  Sometimes I do it with mig too.   I ALWAYS keep a set of mig pliers on the machine.Pull the trigger with some .045 wire that has a ball on the end.  If it doesn't start right away, it makes a mess of my weld.  I trim frequently.  When doing code work, I trim every time.   Like with stick.  If its code work using 7018, there is only one strike in a stick.  Its not worth screwing up a job or NOT passing the test.For your sloppy mig wire, all the slop is taken out because the wire is being pushed.   Think of it like back lash in a machine.  Not a big deal.  DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Sounds like a really sloppy setup, should not have wire sticking-extending out after you stop welding. Sounds like the wire is burning back to the tip from it being 0.23 wire, freezing solid, then sticking out with a ball at the tip after cooling, try smaller tips, new liner.Check your manual for any burnback adjustment on it?My TA190 has it on the main board.
Reply:pistolnoon,not sure about going into the boards to mess with burnback.  The tip is sized to the wire, and I keep em fresh.  When I'm left with long stickout, it's because I lift the gun too soon.  The spool brake is working well, and if I let off the trigger, the wire stops feeding immediately.  The slop in the wire seems to be normal given my setup (smooth wheel, thin wire, lower end of liner limits) and isn't really a problem.  I was just wondering if I should be concerned.Anyways, my questions have been answered (many thanks, I've learned a few things!).  I've been trying to figure out if the forum tools have a "case closed" marker for a thread?
Reply:Hello Bazooka_Luca, you are experiencing a very common thing, particularly when you've got a smaller diameter wire being used in a larger diameter liner. As soon as you pull the trigger the feed rolls start feeding wire through the liner, this essentially causes the wire to "wave" as it makes it's way towards the contact tip. As soon as welding has ceased the wire "straightens out", this action generally results in a bit of extra stick-out as the wire inside of the liner normalizes. You might notice a reduction in this phenomenon if you use a more like sized liner for the particular wire you are using. Not an absolute necessity by any means as the extra stick-out is generally only an annoyance that most of learn to live with. If you really want to test this theory a bit, try coiling your gun whip and feeding a bit of wire through it while it is coiled, then snip the wire off flush with the end of the contact tip. Do this before you uncoil the whip, then straighten out the gun whip, you will very likely notice that the wire now extends out past the contact tip by quite a bit. How much extension of the wire past the contact tip will be influenced by whip length, tightness of the coils, and the amount of clearance between the wire OD. and the liner ID.      Wire starts will be better when you snip the end of the wire at an angle as others have suggested. Machine type and settings will drastically effect arc starts, spatter, and other issues that result in discontinuities and problems with restarts. Slope and inductance on machines that are so equipped can be altered to assist and in many cases eliminate arc starting issues. When you are using the hobbyist type wire machines you will have to experiment a bit with arc starting techniques and come up with a combination of your own to best address how to get your best starts. Experiment with stick-out lengths, wire end preparation (snipped angle cut ends), whether the contact tip is extended past the end of the gas nozzle, flush, or recessed. Many whips don't have the ability to alter the contact tip/nozzle relationship, others do. Just a few additional items to contemplate. Good luck and best regards, Allanaevald