Cheap Inverter Stick Arc Welders - Thoughts?

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I keep coming across adverts for relatively inexpensive DC 150 amp inverter stick welders.These are likely not the quality of a Miller Maxstar 150S ($895) or a Lincoln Invertec V155S ($835) but some of the prices do turn my head!Here's four welder I found, starrting with the higher priced Thermal Arc and moving on down.Any direct experience with any of these welders?Any comments or suggestions?(I've heard the Chi-Com Junk one... so maybe we could skip that one please )Thanks in Advance...Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Most of these stick units will work ok.  The main issue with these small unit are arc starting & running 6010.  Every one I have tried works well with 6011 & 7018.  The duty cycle is low so they are for hobby or light repairs.  I have used many of the different Thermal Arc units and they work well, but Thermadyne outsources them so quality can change.  Go with the unit that meets your needs and make sure you have a place you can take it for warranty work or to exchange it if it fails.
Reply:I have one of Everlast's PowerArc 200, for the money it's a very impressive machine, it will stack 6010 right with either of my Lincoln Shorthoods, and run 7018 with either of my Lincoln Red Faces. If it had adjustable hot start, and arc force, it would be equal to my Lincoln Invertec 350-Pro, then again it would cost 10 times more.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Rick, you'll notice all the machines you posted are 220v machines. That gives them the power to run higher amp rods. The big reason so many want an inverter is to try and go down to 110v power. There's where the big difference comes in with the Maxstar/Invertec machines vs the ones you posted. Those will run both voltages which makes them more "portable" even if you are sacraficing power on 110v. Even the old TA95s is a nice stick machine if you stay with in it's limits. Just like with the migs, the moment you jump up into the 220v power catagory, you get a huge improvement in output power. It's no big surprise..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:http://store.weldersource.com/thermalarc201ts.htmlI'd be willing to bet on the TA unit and its the only unit that would be 110/220v. If you wanted to run 6010 then TA has a couple of higher up models that will run it and have adj. arc force though money is more. If you go to the link above you'll find pricing for their model 201ts which would be comprable to the Miller 150stl but with more amps and HF. TA does out source some of their stuff but there quality/rep is high so to say that their quality can vary would be a stretch.  I do have a Miller Maxstar 140 which was made for miller by someone other manufacturer and had no problem running 1/8 7018 continuously. Also when practicing welding with my TA 185 on some thick plate I had no problems running 5/32 7018, even though its duty cycle is a little higher the TA 161s.
Reply:I have the 161stl and it is an awesome machine. I can run 3/32 anything on 110v way better then on the 95s I had prior. It runs stick much better then my 185tsw and that is a great machine. The key is the arc force control or voltage control on the 161stl. I can tune the arc to whatever I want and for whatever position I desire. I am sure the models without the arc force control are great also but if you can swing it the 161stl is a superb machine and I wouldn't trade it for anything.  The 95s I had worked fine with 3/32 7018 but it was a hard starting arc and wasn't very hot burning. It would wouldn't run 6010 but did 6011 only if you kept rod buried and didn't whip at all. These bigger models have more power on 110v and obviously on 220v but not sure how the voltage is or if arc starting is an issue. I think if this is just for kicks then the everlast would be what I would choose. I was thinking that route also but needed the 161 for portability and reliability and having many thermal arcs over the years I trusted them. I can burn 7018 rod after rod without any overheating or shutdowns so they can handle the use also.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:Originally Posted by HeliarcmanMost of these stick units will work ok.  The main issue with these small unit are arc starting & running 6010.  Every one I have tried works well with 6011 & 7018.'''make sure you have a place you can take it for warranty work or to exchange it if it fails.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VI guess the key question is... what's the balance point between price and risk?
Reply:I have had the pleasure of using two of those machines.  The TA and the Everlast.  They are both solid, reliable units IMO.  I think everlast has a new machine aimed at the dual voltage market that is purported to be able to burn 6010 and comes with lift start tig.  Think max output is 140 amps on 220v.
Reply:Here's some 6010 with the PowerArc200. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:My take:  Inverters do have their place.  a)  For the tradesman that travels from jobsite to jobsite to do jobs the lightweight portableness of a quality inverter is quite handy in a small unit.b)  In industry where a welder runs 8 hours a day the added 20%-25% efficiency of a big inverter will eventually pay for itself in electricity cost savings when using expensive quality inverters.  (Unfortunately, for the backyard hobbyist that is not running a welder much one of the cheap inverters is likely to break before any electricity cost savings will be realized. It will take decades for a homeowner to see any electricity cost savings over a transformer based unit and any savings would be out the door with having to buy another inverter.  An old transformer will last 50 to 75 years or more - good luck getting that service out of one of the cheap inverters).For me if I was a house renter (or a person who lacks a garage/barn) then I might consider one of the Everlast dual voltage 100 amp on 115 volt or 140 amp on 220 volt.  It is cheap enough at $229 to be thrown away once the warranty expires if it breaks.That said, I do not need lightweight portableness as I simply use a cart with big wheels to move my welder which works fine even on gravel and grass outdoors as I mostly weld outdoors using only standard length leads so I always move my welder.  Also, I am not a renter so I will continue with my old transformer based machine as supplying 220 is not a problem for me.  Plus I do occasionally use a Twin Carbon Arc torch for heating metal for bending, brazing, loosening frozen nuts etc instead of using expensive oxy/acetylene.  Twin Carbon Arc will not work on an Inverter, but works very well on an old AC transformer.  Lastly, my old transformer welder resides in an old damp/unheated barn.  Storage situation does not hurt the transformer one bit - doubt the sensitive electronics inside the inverter would like it much though.Last edited by rankrank1; 07-04-2011 at 02:13 PM.
Reply:hey Rick, check your PM,  I already got the perfect recommended welder for you that will run circles around anything listed.   Powcon 200sm (will also do scratch start DC tig).   I might have a line on another one.  I can probably get it inc shipping to Canada for $500 range.however that Everlast looks interesting at $349 or make offer on their website. it also claims 60% duty cycle at 200amps . see what deal Lugweld will make u.  At least we would have a source for an honest review of the machine by a respected member of the site....Most of the reported issues with the ChiCom machines seem to be with the more complex multi process machines.. esp the ones with plasma cutters in them.   there is a huge jump in open circuit voltage for plasma that seems to be an issue in multi process machines.  even the Powcon 225smp was noted for having failure issues.   Arc-products told me that too.  I passed on buying a cheap non working one because of that...Last edited by soutthpaw; 07-04-2011 at 02:38 PM.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawAt least we would have a source for an honest review of the machine by a respected member of the site....
Reply:Gotta agree with Southpaw, my Powcon is my very favorite welder.  It makes a wierd "ticking" when powered on, but runs beads smooth as silk!Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:oh i looked in the manual for the 225SMP and the OCV for welding is 80V and for the Plasma its 185v so quite a big diff.  other thing I noticed about the Powcon models is that the larger models like 300 a nd 400 sm/smt actually put out only half their welding current on single phase and are really designed for 3 phase use.   for stick only the 300ss is the way to go and get 375amps on single phase...   been talking to a guy about one but trying to get the price down on it HehTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Southpaw, the Powcon's aren't even in the same league as the others listed above. Granted you can pick them up used inexpensively some times. They are more on line with Millers XMT series, a true multi function industrial unit. There's simply no comparision between them and the ones Rick posted as far as performance..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWSouthpaw, the Powcon's aren't even in the same league as the others listed above.... There's simply no comparision between them and the ones Rick posted as far as performance.
Reply:I found a nice machine for u http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/2478767398.htmlowners manual here http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...oln3/im490.pdfi just might go take a look see tmw afternoon...   only weighs 36lb so could ship to Canada... hintTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawI found a nice machine for u http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/2478767398.htmlowners manual here http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...oln3/im490.pdfi just might go take a look see tmw afternoon...   only weighs 36lb so could ship to Canada... hint
Reply:Darth, you've gone over to the darkside, seduced by the evil empire of cheap welders.  Feel the force and isten  to Southpaw and come back...buy the Lincoln  "The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:well if he get a really good welder like a Powcon, Lincoln, Miller etc.   he will be so giddy with it and using it all the time he will never have time to return and post on the forumsTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:You guys... are driving me round the bend!Soutthpaw - Good!  Specs on that Invetetc V250-S are solid - nice to  some arc adjustment too. BCRD: Just a note, it is approximately 10 years old - the expected lifespan of an inverter. Norite: Feel the force and isten to Southpaw and come back...buy the Lincoln. Rick V: Aaihaahiii Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:These are not the droids your looking for.
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldingRayThese are not the droids your looking for.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VI like the existence of that separate plug-in socket for 6010 usage.  I suspect that socket is a high Open Circuit Voltage (OCV).Not that I use 6010 but I've found that aluminum stick electrodes weld much better on a high OCV welder.Originally Posted by Rick VYou guys... are driving me round the bend!Soutthpaw - Good!  Specs on that Invetetc V250-S are solid - nice to  some arc adjustment too. BCRD: Just a note, it is approximately 10 years old - the expected lifespan of an inverter. Norite: Feel the force and isten to Southpaw and come back...buy the Lincoln. Rick V: Aaihaahiii
Reply:Originally Posted by rankrank1The new Everlast 100amp/140amp is a good start....
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VHuh?  I can't find anything on the existence of an Everlast welder of 120/240 volts with an output of 100/140 amps.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VYeah, reading those posts was kind of unsettling; it seemed the newer two-port units worked well - better than the older 3-port units.  Still, hard to image something like that marketing/advertizing glitch happening with Lincoln, Miller or ThermoDyne.
Reply:Rankrank1 - thanks for the info on those forum posts... which are very recent circa June 9 2011 with pictures and a first buyer/user reporting on June 25th 2011.  Asked on June 15th about availability in Canada, there was no clear answer.  Maybe the very recent arrival of that model might explain why neither the US or Canadian Everlast web sites shows them.  Still it's rather odd... again seems more 'seat-of-your-pants' flying - with national distributors hearing approximate specifications/features/accessories from the manufacturer but waiting to see what the factory actually sends.The proclaimed 'arc force control and hot start' appear to be fixed internally; there certainly does not appear to be any user adjustment.i.e. There are no external knobs marked 'Hot Start' and 'Arc Force'.Strange indeed...Thanks again for the info...Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick V Still it's rather odd... again seems more 'seat-of-your-pants' flying - with national distributors hearing approximate specifications/features/accessories from the manufacturer but waiting to see what the factory actually sends.The proclaimed 'arc force control and hot start' appear to be fixed internally; there certainly does not appear to be any user adjustment.i.e. There are no external knobs marked 'Hot Start' and 'Arc Force'.
Reply:Rankrank1... what you say about active-electronic arc force may well be true.As for, "might as well simply replace it when it breaks if its out of warranty"...Don't get me going on that WARRANTY THING! Maybe we Canuks are 5/3 = 166% harder on equipment! "Hey, Give me Dat Ting, I bust it good!" Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:There's no adjustment on the hot start or arc force on the PowerArc 200.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:CEP, Thanks for the confirmation of no adjustment.Rankrank1, your philosophy of 'replace it when it breaks if its out of warranty' is logical.In fact, one could think of it as just renting the unit.In the USA: You pay $350 US for 5 years warranty.  i.e. You are renting at $70 US a year.In Canada: We pay $375 Can for 3 years warranty.  i.e. We are renting at $130 US a year.Somehow that disparity 'rankles' me - LOL Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:Best bang for the buck tick arc welder by far!http://www.harborfreight.com/80-amp-...der-91110.htmlTorchmate 2x2 CNC with Flashcut CNC controlsHypertherm Powermax45 Esab ET220i Razorweld 195 MigRazorweld 200ac/dc TigTormach 770, Tormach xstechRazorweld, Vipercut/Vipermig, SSC Foot Pedal Dealer
Reply:Originally Posted by rankrank1Lighter weight is desirable but adequate heat sinks are needed too.  Plus at half the weight of the previous design it is also probably a cheaper design so if Everlast keeps price the same then their profit margin goes up even though retail price was not raised.
Reply:Originally Posted by Rick VRankrank1, your philosophy of 'replace it when it breaks if its out of warranty' is logical.In fact, one could think of it as just renting the unit.In the USA: You pay $350 US for 5 years warranty.  i.e. You are renting at $70 US a year.In Canada: We pay $375 Can for 3 years warranty.  i.e. We are renting at $130 US a year.Somehow that disparity 'rankles' me - LOL
Reply:Originally Posted by GambleBest bang for the buck tick arc welder by far!http://www.harborfreight.com/80-amp-...der-91110.html
Reply:Jeez, the posts are coming so fast, a guy can't keep up! Originally Posted by papaharley03Mind you, I don't have a dog in this fight, just an observation from the bleachers.
Reply:I'll hook you up with a Powcon machine.    just give me a couple weeks.  got  a few to go check out, I'm quickly getting hooked on these.  was talking to a buddy of mine who manages the local Airgas, said he sold 8 powcons to the company that was building some tunnel 2 miles in and 1 mile up into the local mountains and that they had been running them in several inches of mud and water.  and they still worked.  cuz when he serviced them there was 4 inches of mud and dirt packed into the bottom of them.  being all electronics are on the top half it kept them going for a long time...off topic, he only carries the radnor aluminum electrodes which are made by Hobart...Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawI'll hook you up with a Powcon machine.    just give me a couple weeks.  got  a few to go check out, I'm quickly getting hooked on these...
Reply:Rick,This very interesting thread (straight from the Everlast Section) hints that even bigger dual voltage units might be available from Everlast by Christmas.  If not in a hurry those few extra amps might be worth the wait- as if you already were not confused enough.  Plus a unit like this has the added benefit of having AC Hi-freq needed to weld aluminum and of course can be used to stick weld with.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=58180Last edited by rankrank1; 07-08-2011 at 08:09 PM.
Reply:Hmmm... rankrank1 from what I have seen, once you add AC capability to an inverter and a foot pedal, you can expect to pay consideably more than for a simple DC only unit.That video http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=58180 shows that 180 amps AC is not really enough to handle 1/4 inch thick aluminum - at least on pure argon.IMO, the Diversion series just seems to give up too much: no stick capability, no AC adjust and no freq adjust.  Add to that being weak on AC amps for doing aluminum... kind of loses it's appeal for me. Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:you really need 225 amp AC tig to do 1/4" alumium.  I had a Lincoln 175 square wave pro for a while but sold it cuz i usually weld 1/4 and up and was just too much for that machineTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:i am looking for one to go on my generator ,so i am limited to about 150 amps.i had about decided on a maxstar 150 .after pricing it i thought about looking a little more.might even get a fluxcore mig.anyway one i found that i am considering is the forney at 160 for $400.millermatic 35      acdc thunderboltesab 2522 oxweld w-17 torchesesab plasma cutterspeedway fluxcoreold bug gas welderROLL TIDE
Reply:Be aware that Forney discontinued those inverters.... That said if you found one online for sale the $400 price is pretty much wholesale. I have the Forney 100 unit and I think it's a quality machine. It's been more functional than I ever supposed a toaster sized unit could be. I wouldn't expect the AT160 unit to be any less functional just more powerful. I contacted Forney about these machines which is how I discovered they had been discontinued. Not because of quality,but because of slow sales. The AT100 retailed for $400 threw Forney and the AT160 was even more.I spoke to the manufacturers rep. in Chicago about their machines and he confirmed they are made in Italy  ... not China.... I think most all the others in this power range are either built in China are contain Chinese internals.(doesn't everything)  I think the ebay seller that has the Forney units is either liquidating stock or is the manufacturer or is someone that purchased a number of these machines when they were liquidated last year at giveaway prices. I bought mine for $99 delivered & wish I'd bought an AT160 at the same time or another AT100 at least.Everyone of my friends that's used it loves it.We all have our requirements for machines and all have our own thoughts about them... I like my AT100 and would purchase another in a heartbeat. I think the quality is there especially in this price range and power range... I have no reason to think the AT160 shouldn't be equally as well built and functional.
Reply:Dusting this July 2011 thread off because,,, I may buy a Cheapo Chinese!Recall this picture form earlier in this thread?Recently I saw the price drop from $150 to $120.I contacted the Seller.He said this machine has no warranty!He test welds with each unit before he ships and that's that.He has sold 5 out of the 10 welders he has; no one has complained of a failure.While rated at 200 amps @60 duty cycle, he suggested the reality was likely 200 amps at 30% duty cycle.  He said, as long as you stay within the 30% you should have no problems with longevity!    "They weld good but the longevity of them not sure."He offered me another welder, "I do have the HD-200 stick tig combo for $350 and I know that is a very good machine. Sold it for 5 years."  Sounded suspicously like another welder of some longevity. Anyway sticking with the yellow box welder, I figured cost would be $120 + 13% GST + $30 to ship = $165.60.  I asked for a quote and got, "The shipping would be $25. With Taxes it would come up to $141.25."The question is... what do you think?  Worth a try?... or Save your Money!Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:I see the profit from your most recent welder sales in burning a hole in your pocket.   yes you should buy every Chicom welder and test it out.  I am guessing you are not close enough to go demo one?    I bet the arc stability is kind of crappy.  I would put an ammeter on the welding cable and see how much it varies as you lay a bead. 7018 works well cuz you can drag it and not even need to look at the arc to keep the bead going.    the other thing would be to set a timer and continuously burn rods till you reach the duty cycle time.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:did you get a brand name or ask him what other names the company is selling these welders under.see if you can find the identical looking model on http://www.alibaba.com/  then follow that company's link to see what all they are makingLast edited by soutthpaw; 12-15-2011 at 11:47 PM.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:If I were after a small DC tig unit, I'd rather go with the the Thermal Arc 95S Stick/TIG Welder Package for $412.