New Hire Testing

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Hey again Folks!My last post didn't post (at least I don't think it did)  Between being back and forth from my office to the shop, I was signed out, and when it came time to post...  I got a blank screen, so...  I'll try it again, if I can remember what I wrote.  It was something like this:What is the most extensive welding test you have taken, or seen given/taken? How much time did it take?My two main wires are:ER 70S-6 with 92-8 gas71A85 with 75/25 gasWhat I'm thinking is...   For the 71A85, I will have the test plates cut.  Probably 5/8 plate.  They can weld them, flat, vertical, and overhead.  When they are done, they can cut out their coupons on the bandsaw, grind them down, stamp their faces, and have them ready for bending.For the ER 70S-6...  Have a print for them, with a pile of parts, something small...  stackable parts bin perhaps.  Would probably have them make 2 of them, so I can see how much they learned from the first to help with the speed of the second.  Visually inspecting of these welds would be fine...I would show them their test plates...  show them the prints...  show them where the materials are they are going to use...   and start the clock.  (I will bend their coupons later at my leisure.)Thoughts?  What else can I have them do?Of all the welders i have known, 45% of them can actually put down a certifiable weld.  Problem is, they think their abilities are the best thing since sliced bread, and they either admire it for half the day, or spend half the day doing it.  Or, they think they are a union or a state worker, and have no concept of time.  Another 45% actually have a good grasp of time, they put down the weld in a decent amount of time, and then get going on the next job, except...  they forget to grind off the stalactites they left behind, and were impervious to the porosity that was spewing out sparks.  The remaining 10% or less, can actually put the two together.What other tests can you think of that will help weed out the "Welders" that...-can't read a tape measure-can't tell there is something wrong with their weld AS they are welding, and need to wait until they are done to see the defects-don't understand that time is money.  $500 in labor, for a job that sells for $250, is a bit of a predictament -don't understand and account for the fact that the heating and cooling of a simple tack, does actually move the steel being tacked, and needs to be accounted for before making the tackTo get a range of times, I will take the test myself, and I will have my current employees take the test...  That'll give me a baseline of times.  Weld quality, visual and testing, speaks for itself.For most of the welding I do...  my "wire-burners" are adequate.  But for making fixtures, or the occaisonal welding job that needs to be sound, they are not even close, and I need to do it myself.Unfortunately, someone decided that a day should be only 24 hours...  and a week should only be 7 days...  That is not nearly enough time.Any more ideas for me?Thanks,Charlie
Reply:what is it you need the new hire to be able to do specifically? Id figure out what you really need from a welder and test that, a short written test about blueprints and measurements could also give you an  idea of what you would be working with- Christian M.C3 Welding & Fabrication - CNC Plasma Cutting-Mobile Welding-Custom welding and fabwww.c3welding.com
Reply:Can you train your best wire burner and hire a new guy for his spot?  Surely you have one that shows potential.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Either TIG or MIG:When I give a welding test I'll have the controls on the machine all at zero. Regulator on the table & not attached at either end.This weeds out 15-25% of the knuckleheads right off of the bat..I'll have them make 2 simple shelf brackets or something else from a simple drawing.  The whole thing, cutting, drilling, welding etc. (I'm a fab shop so they need to know how to fab)A guy that bugs me 10 times because he's clueless, doesn't get hired.A guy that does it at 100mph but does a ****ty job can get lost too..Then I'll interview the restBuy American, or don't whine when you end up on the bread line.
Reply:Our test consist of a written, multiple choise, theoretical test, for starters.nothing too complicated, just to see if one wouldn't hook up the acetylene bottle to his MIG welder.As far as welding goes, they need to cut their test pieces, and bevel them at the same time, with an oxy/acetylene torch.pieces of tubing will be prepared with a bevel.they need to make some butt welds, fillet welds in all positions and a butt weld of the tubing, one half up-hill, other half down-hill (there are several boxes of rods, different types and thickness, they need to make their own choice).If they can do that with rods, they can MIG for sure, or at least they won't have much difficulties learning.Tig weldors do about the same but on thin plates.
Reply:Thanks for all of the replies!Lots of ideas here, keep them coming!Had not thought about having them cut their own test plates with an oxy/acetylene torch.  I like that a lot...  In the past, I did have my flow meter set at zero, and the welder zeroed out.  Taking the regulator complete off the machine takes it one step farther.I could train my best wire burner for the spot, but...  he is also a crew leader, and I would rather turn a bum off the street into a welder, than to train a new crew leader.  He has acquired too much knowledge over the years.  How often is a written test given?  I have never taken one.I took a one year course for welding almost 30 years ago.  After that, I went to work for an outfit (did not have a written test), and worked there for 15 years.  I have been welding on my own for almost 20 years (quite a few years of overlap).  I was lucky in that I worked with guys that I learned a lot of real world practice from.  I could teach someone, but I don't have the time.Thanks,Charlie
Reply:theoretical test is given to weed out those who have 15 years of welding in their resume, but haven't ever seen the inside of a helmet before.Like we wouldn't notice that ???so that way, we don't have to waste our time with a practical test. (it takes time, a welding booth, someone watching over them, it takes test material and welding equipment, ...so we just have some multiple choice about polarity, gases, difference between a 5 and a 12 shade welidng glass, ...you give them a piece of paper, and the good ones come out after 5 minutes. If it takes someone over 15 minutes, they get shown the way out.Lots of them go out after the theoretical test...
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldingMachineEither TIG or MIG:When I give a welding test I'll have the controls on the machine all at zero. Regulator on the table & not attached at either end.This weeds out 15-25% of the knuckleheads right off of the bat..I'll have them make 2 simple shelf brackets or something else from a simple drawing.  The whole thing, cutting, drilling, welding etc. (I'm a fab shop so they need to know how to fab)A guy that bugs me 10 times because he's clueless, doesn't get hired.A guy that does it at 100mph but does a ****ty job can get lost too..Then I'll interview the rest
Reply:Originally Posted by kingneroLots of them go out after the theoretical test...
Reply:As I read these descriptions it seems odd that the welder is not tested on the qualification test required by any normally certified shop.  Are there many uncertified shops in the U.S.?   In Canada it is next to impossible to survive as a fabrication/welding shop unless the shop is certified.  It boils down to no certification, no bidding on jobs.  Most shops locally just test the candidate using the qualification test whether it is GMAW on sheet metal or GTAW on stainless pipe.   I agree with giving a quick written test of some sort to ensure the person can read a tape and understand a basic print.  If the person is a welder he will be carrying with him his Log book that carries test qualifications and work experience signed by employers and inspectors.  If he is a fabricator he will be carrying his Journeyman's papers.   I am beginning to realize that American employers can screw their employees and have them for a lifetime of servitude.  Up here a guy with his log book or papers can walk out the door at any hint of abuse or ill treatment.... and never look back.
Reply:I own a job shop. We plug and play on a daily basis. We hire weldors and teach them fab skills, sheet metal skills, and machining and metallurgy theory. The less they know, the less I pay. But the learning opportunity is huge. Not many posess that drive to advance. That is what I impress on prospective hires. School is hugely important. An uneducated weldor gets my personal rage. The worst employees are the ones that are untrainable. Cut some tubes, give them a simple drawing with tolerances for fit and angularity, a tape measure, and a traveler for them to record their steps. You will find out if they can read and assemble per print within tolerance, lay a weld, and write down what they did in a legible manner. Then you can critique and if you want to make an offer you have something to bargain over.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanAs I read these descriptions it seems odd that the welder is not tested on the qualification test required by any normally certified shop.  Are there many uncertified shops in the U.S.?   In Canada it is next to impossible to survive as a fabrication/welding shop unless the shop is certified.  It boils down to no certification, no bidding on jobs.  Most shops locally just test the candidate using the qualification test whether it is GMAW on sheet metal or GTAW on stainless pipe.   I agree with giving a quick written test of some sort to ensure the person can read a tape and understand a basic print.  If the person is a welder he will be carrying with him his Log book that carries test qualifications and work experience signed by employers and inspectors.  If he is a fabricator he will be carrying his Journeyman's papers.   I am beginning to realize that American employers can screw their employees and have them for a lifetime of servitude.  Up here a guy with his log book or papers can walk out the door at any hint of abuse or ill treatment.... and never look back.
Reply:Pretty much anything I would say has been said.Getting them to do simple things helps. Like prepping the metal. Setting up a spool gun etc. Helps by getting rid of the knuckleheads fast!
Reply:Originally Posted by CharlieKI'm not really sure what you mean by a "uncertified shop".  Yes, there are a lot of shops that have NO certified welders working.  Most manufacturing only needs a very small percentage of the welders to be certified...  if any at all.Charlie
Reply:I work for a manufacturing facility.All potential new hires go through a weld evaluation before they're interviewed by their potential supervisor. The evaluation I have them do consists of welding various fillet and groove welds to a certain size. If the person is hired I will then put them through our weld school program witch will vary based on what department they will be going to. The main objectives of weld school is train the employees on our companies weld criteria, blueprints, weld symbols and basic fabrication. Before leaving weld school to enter production all welders must pass a certification test.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI own a job shop. We plug and play on a daily basis. We hire weldors and teach them fab skills, sheet metal skills, and machining and metallurgy theory. The less they know, the less I pay. But the learning opportunity is huge. Not many posess that drive to advance. That is what I impress on prospective hires. School is hugely important. An uneducated weldor gets my personal rage. The worst employees are the ones that are untrainable. Cut some tubes, give them a simple drawing with tolerances for fit and angularity, a tape measure, and a traveler for them to record their steps. You will find out if they can read and assemble per print within tolerance, lay a weld, and write down what they did in a legible manner. Then you can critique and if you want to make an offer you have something to bargain over.
Reply:Guy I knew on another site had a pretty in depth test he gave to new hires that he posted up for others to look at.  Sadly that site is no longer up and running and I didn't save the test to my computer. Zap, Stan, Steve or any of the other old guys from Mzone, did any of you save Brett's test to the computer or have his contact info?The idea though was fairly similar to Terry's from what I remember. A basic written one asking a few things like determine the length of some items the person was given, questions about weld symbols and so on, and a small hands on part where you assembled a piece and welded it up for testing, needing to set the machine and prep the joints..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I can certify with the CWB (Canadian welding bureau) here in Canada. I'm currently a CWB structural certified transferable welder with stick process. This ticket is only valid for working for a CWB certified weld shop or a CWB certified company. Journeyman status is also important in most (not all) parts of Canada. If I post in for a job at the union hall, the journeyman status and all position certification ticket allows me to walk right into a job and start welding most of the time.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeI can certify with the CWB (Canadian welding bureau) here in Canada. I'm currently a CWB structural certified transferable welder with stick process. This ticket is only valid for working for a CWB certified weld shop or a CWB certified company. Journeyman status is also important in most (not all) parts of Canada. If I post in for a job at the union hall, the journeyman status and all position certification ticket allows me to walk right into a job and start welding most of the time.
Reply:Again, journeyman status will solve that problem.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Originally Posted by CharlieK  I was lucky in that I worked with guys that I learned a lot of real world practice from.  I could teach someone, but I don't have the time.
Reply:Daeyel,  very well said you summed it up thanks for your post.  Clifton
Reply:Originally Posted by DaeyelThere's your problem.  You think the guys who taught you had the time?  But they did anyway.And that's why your 'wire burners' as you so derogatorily call them, haven't improved.  Just remember, you'd still be a 'wire burner' yourself if those guys hadn't donated their precious time to explain, show and teach you.Sheesh!
Reply:Originally Posted by daeyelthere's your problem.  You think the guys who taught you had the time?  But they did anyway.And that's why your 'wire burners' as you so derogatorily call them, haven't improved.  Just remember, you'd still be a 'wire burner' yourself if those guys hadn't donated their precious time to explain, show and teach you.Sheesh!
Reply:Well, actually, they did have the time.  They were paid by the hour to work with me, and when their 8 or 9 hours was up, they went home.  Not really the situation I'm in...But...  Its still a really good point.Thanks!