Welding Ballistic Steel -200Kpsi

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New to the forum.  I've been hobby welding for a few years.  I have an Miller Econotig and a Oxy-Ace tank set up and access to a Handler 140 MIG for school work.We are doing some school shop work on an old race car.  The upper shock mounts were fabricated using scrap ballistic steel plate (200Kpsi).  tough stuff.I had to reweld onto the plate.  I used 1/8 6011 DCEP off the econotig at ~120 amps (near max of the econotig in stick mode)penetration looks to be a bit weak. 2 passes in each fillet were neede to fill gaps.  ballistic plate was used only since the builder had it....definitely NOT needed.  its really awful to work with...but I need to leave it there.....Any clue how get better welds.  thanks
Reply:Always state the thickness of the metal pieces you are trying to weld.  Also, this forum is very photo friendly, so pictures are always welcome (and helpful).
Reply:sorry:  1/4" plate.  plate was cut off at old welds, moved ~ 1" over, then rewelded.  some of the weld was hit with a sanding disk while cleaning up spatter. Attached ImagesLast edited by bbscamp; 02-28-2014 at 12:30 PM.
Reply:What you have there would be called a "strut mount" and not just a simple "shock absorber mount".  Difference being that a "shock mount" hold only the shock absorber and actually bears not vehicle weight, shocks only dampen the compression and rebound of springs.Struts, on the other hand, carry vehicle weight AND a shock absorber all in one package.As such, a strut mount has to be much more robust than a shock mount.
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerweldWhat you have there would be called a "strut mount" and not just a simple "shock absorber mount".  Difference being that a "shock mount" hold only the shock absorber and actually bears not vehicle weight, shocks only dampen the compression and rebound of springs.Struts, on the other hand, carry vehicle weight AND a shock absorber all in one package.As such, a strut mount has to be much more robust than a shock mount.
Reply:Not to be a smart guy here but this is a critical item and if you are not sure what you are doing then don't. Ok back to the question. You have a TIG welder, then why would you not TIG weld this item, albeit you may be at the limit of the econotig, however when I worked for a race car outfit (clowns) a long time ago he had an econotig and it did steel and aluminum rather nicely.T.J.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:the higher amperage was required to get penetration into the 1/4 plate.   Its much more difficult to get the penetration into it.  I'm sure that I did, but the welds aren't very pretty.   To the other comment, yes....a strut tower is a more proper description.   This plate is WAY overkill for the loads.  In fact, most towers of this type in production cars is no more than reinforced sheetmetal.  I'm not worried about failure here.   The welds that I did are much better than what I cut out, and that vehicle was autocrossed with no issues. The car will also get LCA upper and lower stops.  If there ever was a failure, the LCA would be captured.   Its my @ss....and I'm happy with it.   TIG would have been at the limits, and I could not get the area a clean as I would need, to TIG.  Old weld and contamination were issues.  I ground what I could to "prep".Stick was the better option.As far as getting someone else to "help" in this case, I've pretty much found that very very few people know what they say they know.....and have skills that aren't worth paying for.Thanks for the input guys......Last edited by bbscamp; 02-28-2014 at 04:32 PM.
Reply:Get yourself a copy of 'prepare to win' and 'engineer to win' by Carroll Smith.  Read them both cover to cover and it will save your behind.
Reply:Please don't take this the wrong way but there is so much wrong here I don't know where to start.As others have said previously, this needs to be redone by someone with more knowledge, experience and welding skill, especially for an extreme use such as a race car."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:I rarely am this blunt, but that is a terrible weld.I question the reasoning of using ballistic steel for this application even if it's free.  Also because it's ballistic steel, I question the use of 6011.Comparing your weld to be better than the poor weld it replaced is an incorrect comparison. You should be comparing it to a properly welded joint.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:It looks like the bracket was cut off and moved a little. If what I see is the old weld, it wasn't very good. I would've used 3/32" 7018.Millermatic 200Hobart Handler 120Victor O/A & Ramco BandsawLincoln 225 ACSnapOn AD HoodMiller XMT304/22AHypertherm Powermax 1650 G3Lincoln Idealarc DC600 w/Extreme 12 VSMiller Digital Elite "Joker"
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI rarely am this blunt, but that is a terrible weld.I question the reasoning of using ballistic steel for this application even if it's free.  Also because it's ballistic steel, I question the use of 6011.Comparing your weld to be better than the poor weld it replaced is an incorrect comparison. You should be comparing it to a properly welded joint.
Reply:I'd think it might,maybe be prone to cracking. Under bead cracking. Of course it's only 1/4 inch, so maybe there was enough dilution. Dunno. The way those towers are put together from the factory looks like flex and give is everything. Weld both sides so you have it 'saddled' in there .."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:bbscamp:I'm going to chime in here. You've received some pretty good advice from the veterans here. I'll add my $.02 since I have nothing better to do this morning...You asked "Any clue how get better welds." Since it sounds like you are in school, perhaps you should continue your education with a basic welding class. Not trying to be a smart a$$ just stating the truth. You've got "an old race car" that none of us know if, when or how its going to be used in the future and you state "its my a$$" if it fails. No, its more than that. You have to think about the worst case scenario. That usually involves other's a$$e$ as well. Especially in automotive applications.You have a poorly designed replacement for a fixture that had originally been designed by (hopefully) competent engineers, using the wrong material, with poor fit up since you referenced filling in gaps, poor penetration since you did not prep your joints properly to achieve full penetration and your welding skill is woefully inadequate for the job you are trying to perform.But you are asking how to improve it so at least you care somewhat about its quality. So, get out your grinder and cutoff wheels and take it apart and leave it alone until you have attained the skills necessary for proper automotive fabrication and welding. You can't get those skills on your own or even by asking questions online, believe it or not. You need some good old fashioned schooling and getting answers from people that use screen names and emoticons for punctuation (guilty) is probably not going to get you what you need.Or don't. Keep going like this. Maybe it will last until the car is finally scrapped. In the mean time you will have plenty of other projects to butcher until the day one of them bites you or someone else badly. There's a lot of good information on this board being selflessly handed down to people seeking it. Most don't want to hear the answers. Some of us here do this professionally and really care about what kind of work we perform. Its not a high school shop class. People's lives are at stake when most of us strike an arc. Your's included I might add.Honor the trade by getting yourself competent if you're going to keep doing work like this.EricAWS D1.1 Certified SMAW 3G Unlimited, Open Root                             FCAW-G 3G Unlimited, w/BackerCellular Tower Reinforcement Welding on the frozen tundra of the greater Mid-West
Reply:what exactly is "ballistic steel" ? most likely it is either a HSLA or a Q&T steel, both are different to be welded, but for either, a high heat input (max. amps like you stated) is the wrong approach.
Reply:Thats as good as a lot of factory welds.  Never heard of ballistic steel is it armor plate need a number Mittal and Evarez are the USA suppliers ,go figure Indian and Russian make our steel.Some welds easy some not.
Reply:Thanks for the input on this one guys.  I do appreciate it.  The car was built and raced by the previous owner.  Lots and lots of autocross miles, with no failure at those towers.  The weld that are there now are much better than what was there originally.  The steel is armor plate, 1/4".  The geometry was off, and had too much neg. camber, so the upper plate was moved.  It is now fillet welded on the topside AND bottom.  The material is tremendously oversized for the job.  But I'm working with what I have, as the previous owner will be getting the car back.   There are some good points to the vehicle, and some bad.  Im trying to work out the "bad".  For example, The body is was held to the frame by 6  -  1/2"bolts, 2 were torn out of the body.. Thin sheetmetal has been replaced with 1/8 material. The OP was, if anyone has some experience with 200ksi armor plate welding.....chime in.  This stuff is brutally difficult to work with (cutting, welding, drilling.....)   1/4 mild steel would have been way more than adequate....but I'm working with what is there.  I will have a local weldshop look at it and reweld if necessary at the end of the build.  there is clear access to it.  But the material that is there stays.  The rest of the vehicle uses 1958 folded E.German sheetmetal,  so the overall build quality is, lets say, marginal at best.   Honestly, I would be more concerned about the entire upper assembly tearing off the OEM frame before the upper mount area fails.  The front end is only as strong as its weakest link.The car was hammered in its early lifetime.   The car will never be raced again, it will be re-assigned to life as a cruise nite icecream cone getter.   I've seen plenty of really bad things done to cars, esp. "rat-rods".  Unsafe in many regards. I've also see many daily use cars....all with unsafe repairs.If failure does occur...the LCA travel is captured - as a safeguard.Last edited by bbscamp; 03-03-2014 at 08:12 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI rarely am this blunt, but that is a terrible weld.I question the reasoning of using ballistic steel for this application even if it's free.  Also because it's ballistic steel, I question the use of 6011.Comparing your weld to be better than the poor weld it replaced is an incorrect comparison. You should be comparing it to a properly welded joint.
Reply:Why not take the part scrap it and make one out of a material you know what it is like steel then you eliminate the guess work of what welding rod to use and if your weld is sound.Lincoln pro core 125 14''chop saw7 inch grinder,2-4.5 inch grinders,electric die grinder.Half inch drillAnd alot of hand tools
Reply:I have LOTS of experience welding "ballistic" plate so I will chime in...............It IS NOT structrural steel............don't use as structural steel!!6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:I've seen lots of posts where a questions is asked, and several chime in with "....go learn what you are doings...."  your welds suck.....and so forth.  I got it.  Its a less than optimal material in a less than optimal setting with a less than optimal weld.  Agreed.  But....as stated earlier it was a bandaid fix.  Yes, a poster can get defensive when they get their asses jumped for asking a technical question.  There is nothing more cantankerous than an old welder.  lol.The specific question on now to weld 200kpsi plate was never answered.  And...I may never know.  or care to, as I have NO intention of ever using it myself!Plan???????   since its multiple bandaids at this point.  Its all coming out and being re-engineered.  That plate is too hard t work.Thick skin here....so its all good.  I know its all comments with the best intentions..   no harm, no foul.
Reply:"There is nothing more cantankerous than an old welder. lol."Hey! That's me!Yes. The comments are (mostly) backed by best intentions. I'd say you got a mild dose on this one. Good to hear you have a thick hide. Good luck with the project.EAWS D1.1 Certified SMAW 3G Unlimited, Open Root                             FCAW-G 3G Unlimited, w/BackerCellular Tower Reinforcement Welding on the frozen tundra of the greater Mid-West
Reply:Im going to Conexpo my plate sales people will be there along with SSAB they should know. We run A514 & HPS 70-W all the time along with Favco repairs and redesign work. The foreign steels can have much different properties that AWS and AISC allow. High yield can have preheat and interpass temp from 60 to 500 deg.
Reply:I am a welding engineer and I have no idea what ballistic steel is.As stated it could be some sort of Q+T, HSLA or TM treated steel.All of these require different approach in welding so it is not possible to give you proper instructions on how to weld the material you have at hand.One thing is common for all: 6010 or 6011 are completely unsuitable. They have a high amount of hydrogen which could result to cold cracking in these type of steels not to mention the fact that they simply have a lot lower strength compared to that of the material.Last edited by taz00; 03-03-2014 at 03:12 PM.
Reply:Again, read the books I suggested.  Somewhere in it, Mr. Smith talks about scrap metal and says that if it is 4130 or similar, then it gets marked immediately after being cut to avoid confusion, if it isn't used in a race car and there's no immediate use for it somewhere else in the shop; it gets tossed.  Your example is a perfect reason for this practice.  If the wrong material is lying around, someone is apt to use it for the wrong application.The reason for all the critical words is that well prepared cars, with proper materials and proper design have killed people; both drivers and bystanders.  The reason why no one told you how to weld that piece is because there is no right way to weld it for your application.  You've done the right thing by asking around here.  Now you know what not to do!  Practice your welding, grinding and drilling and you'll be ahead of half the people around.@ bbscamp - step back.  Check this out.  Ballistic Steel (MIL-A-46100, 12560, 46177) should not be used for a rigidty-based design, let alone a strength-only design for cars.  InsaneO.  Your are grossly misguided.  Do you even know the pedigree of your ballistic plate?  Chemical composition?  Tensalloy, say?  XX10/11 electrodes are NoGo for AR-based metals.  Will leave it up to you to "find out" what LoHy electrodes are mateable for 500 BHN steel. Taz00 is a degree'd Welding Engineer and has given you the brutal facts.  Welding Swede has done similar.  Humans sometimes dislike the brutal facts.  Accept them and move on.  Even if your app is for a "cruise nite icecream cone getter.""Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Originally Posted by ManoKai@ bbscamp - step back.  Check this out.  Ballistic Steel (MIL-A-46100, 12560, 46177) should not be used for a rigidty-based design, let alone a strength-only design for cars.  InsaneO.  Your are grossly misguided.  Do you even know the pedigree of your ballistic plate?  Chemical composition?  Tensalloy, say?  XX10/11 electrodes are NoGo for AR-based metals.  Will leave it up to you to "find out" what LoHy electrodes are mateable for 500 BHN steel. Taz00 is a degree'd Welding Engineer and has given you the brutal facts.  Welding Swede has done similar.  Humans sometimes dislike the brutal facts.  Accept them and move on.  Even if your app is for a "cruise nite icecream cone getter."
Reply:You have to know when to say no. Any one who does not respect your resolute answer of "no", does not deserve your service at any level.The members have offered you the technically sound answer you asked for.I bet they would make nice rifle targets, but not strut mounts. Try some cold rolled steel welded with lo-hy rod (E7018).City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:I think back on post #21 I said it was coming out.  I KNEW up front it was a difficult and wrong material....that's why I asked for opinions.  Mild carbon steel is more than adequate for the job.   If will be more fun engineering new pieces anyway!
Reply:Originally Posted by bbscampI think back on post #21 I said it was coming out.  I KNEW up front it was a difficult and wrong material....that's why I asked for opinions.  Mild carbon steel is more than adequate for the job.   If will be more fun engineering new pieces anyway!
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Reply:My plate guys say the same thing armor or wear plate most of which welds with lo hydrogen ,undermatch and preheat is common to control crackinh.