Problems welding cast aluminum oil pan

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Hello all,I just finished a job for a mechanic friend involving welding a plate over a large hole in an oil pan for a 2002 Cadillac in position.  My friend did not realize that the engine he replaced on the Caddy had been damaged with a fork lift during removal at the wrecking yard until after he had installed it. He was in deep trouble with his customer if he couldn't figure out a solution. I had done several such repairs but not as large is this one and had no problems with them.  This one however was the exception and needless to say I had a hell of a time.  I was wondering if there is a method that others have used for these types of repairs.Most welders would have steered clear of this one but I quoted a price and started on it.  I figured 3 to 4 hours.  It was about a six by six inch patch.  I ended up putting in 8 hours.  Most of the time was spent burning out the old oil residue.  I did this by going over the seam several time.  In effect I welded the plate about four times as junk either in the casting or oil residue would hamper my progressThe two problems I ran into were first, the casting had gas pockets which when hit with the TIG torch, popped, making a hole.  So I was chasing holes.  That wasn't too bad an issue as my second one, cracking.After I had welding the plate on, cracks developed around sections of the bead.  Not on the bead, right next to it.  I found myself having to run beads on the cracks.  It was a very tedious process which would have gone much smoother if I had a system to prevent the cracks from forming.In the end as I was patching the last of the cracks that had formed I post heated the area using the logic similar to cast iron work.  Namely to heat the entire part to allow the metal in the area to stay at similar temperature while cooling.Some might say, don't do that type of job.  I am more interested in knowing from those who do or have done this type of repair how they handle them.  For example, would you keep the area hot by running a torch over the part at regular intervals?  That is, stop welding and then heat?  Or would you weld in little beads of an inch or so at a time?Or is this type of job considered "undoable" and stay away from them period?  Attached is a picture of the job just before I stared in on it and after it was done.  For those of you who are into ridicule, keep it to yourself.  I would like to hear from those who are into helping a fellow welder know how to handle situations such as these.Thanks for any help, advice and input,Tony Attached Images
Reply:you have bigger ones than I do!!  I don't think i would have touched that one6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:I've cheated a couple of times and been lucky.Instead of making the patch flat, flange the perimeter up 1/2" or so. That way any expansion or contraction will have a place to work rather than pulling on the flat plate. Obviously that's only going to be possable if the situation permits as far as clearances etc go.I had seen it done on a large casting so I tried it on aluminum and it worked.....Mike
Reply:Originally Posted by therrera  My friend did not realize that the engine he replaced on the Caddy had been damaged with a fork lift during removal at the wrecking yard until after he had installed it. He was in deep trouble with his customer if he couldn't figure out a solution.
Reply:Hi all,that's a great idea, to flange the patch.  I never would have thought of that.  Good call!  I felt reluctant to post the "after" picture because I feel the repair looks real rough, but I want feedback, so no holds barred.Thanks for your feedback,TonyPS: turns out the the customer supplied the engine so he has partial blame.  Agreed, my mechanic friend made a real basic mistake of not looking the engine over BEFORE starting the job.  He said business is real bad and quoted $300 for the installation.  The customer paid $180 for the welding repair.  I got a $20 "tip".
Reply:why couldn't ya have just pulled the pan and swapped it? It doesn't look like you had anything in the way that's real obvious to stop it from being pulled. Otherwise it looks like a lot of frustration and neck cranking...good job
Reply:Sorry but in the car repairs are a waste of time in that scale..I would have said "Sure if it is out" but would have just said "No Thanks" in that case.....Not only that but the pan gasket is most likely toast by now..Along with the front and rear seals..Oh Well..Now  your "It"......zap!Last edited by zapster; 05-13-2011 at 05:11 AM.I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Sorry but in the car repairs are a waist of time in that scale..I would have said "Sure if it is out" but would have just said "No Thanks" in that case.....Not only that but the pan gasket is most likely toast by now..Along with the front and rear seals..Oh Well..Now your "It"......zap!
Reply:Leak city
Reply:it is standard practice at most junk yards to poke a hole in the pan to drain it kinda of curious if you are going to end up buying the customer a new motor for your lack of knowledge and understanding of what the heat and arc did to itMiller Xmt 350Lincoln Ln-25Ahp 200xSmith Gas Mixer AR/HTig is my Kung FuThrowing down dimes and weaving aboutInstagram http://instagram.com/[email protected]
Reply:What Zap said, your IT now.
Reply:Originally Posted by rode2rouenI find it absofreakinloutely amazing that your friend installed the used engine without noticing the the hole in the oil pan!!  Rex
Reply:So when this engine fails, and I think most of agree that's not going to be long ( if it even starts, tell me you disconnected the ECU ), are you and your friend still going to be friends?  Or is this going to turn into a blame game?  I mean, I think his relationship with this customer is going south in a hurry regardless, but it'd be a shame to lose a friend over $200.   I think you, or your buddy, could've bought a perfectly good oil pan ( http://www.automotix.net/usedautopar...inventory.html ) and installed it for less.   I question the plan, not the execution __David Hillman
Reply:Hello again,The customer requested the pan be welded as he provided the engine.  He wanted to avoid the cost of paying to drop the engine as the pan could not be removed in position, the mechanic wanted to avoid the cost of his mistake of not noticing the pan being broken.  Hence he asked me if I could weld a patch on it, which I did.From some of the replies I get the feeling that some of you would be afraid to take on this type of project.  If the issue is that it is not a "practical" repair because of all the work involved then I would say, I'm not afraid of hard work.If the issue is that it is not a technically feasible repair, then that's what I was really looking for.  Advice or suggestions as to how this repair could have been done better, more efficiently or not technically possible and to stay away from it.The pan was not welded in one solid session. I welded a section, then stopped, then picked it up again, then stopped and so on.  I grounded on the exhaust manifold which is bolted to the block as is the oil pan.mrmikey's advice to flange the patch is a very practical suggestion in my opinion as it would have prevented the stress cracks.  No one has commented on that suggested.  Is it a good one or not?I have been faced with similar repairs, not to this extent grant you, but in position repairs on engine blocks, oil pans and transmissions without a hitch.  This is the first one that gave me a problem, it was also the largest of such repairs I have attempted.To those that are only critical of this job, does that mean you would have avoided attempting it?  If so, so be it.  But if you would have attempted, how would you have gone about this in position repair?  I could have thrown up my hands and walked away from this repair after my initial work leaked and just told the mechanic that it couldn't be done. That's when I noticed the cracks.  I chose to help my friend out as he was in a bind.I don't know how the economy is in your parts of the country, but here in Arizona business has all but died and many small mom and pop shops are hurting real bad many closing their doors forever.These types of repairs will come up more and more as people try to save as their money grows scarce.  I think it is important that those of us in the repair trade find creative solutions to problems.  One of them may be to do in position repairs in order to hold down costs.  It is in that spirit that I ask my peers how they might have gone about doing this repair. Thanks,Tony
Reply:Tony,  Fair enough, it wasn't your idea.   I would've gone up top, and unplugged everything electrical that I could find.  It's all likely grounded to the block, and not likely to survive welding current.  Then I would've tacked a piece of scrap to the pan, and grounded to that.  Even better would be to unbolt the pan, even if you couldn't fully remove it, and isolate it from the car.  That might also allow you do clean the inside of the pan some.   Also, I think you'll find the manifold is bolted to the head, not the block.   I understand things are tight, but what happens if the customer comes back in a month with a junked motor?  Hopefully you set his expectations appropriately.   Does the engine run?__David Hillman
Reply:Welding a casting without pre and postheating isn't a good idea. It can be done in place but as some already said- too much heat will fry gaskets and seals. Seems your dead set on doing stuff like this no matter what is said about the job, but there are a lot of good points being stated. A good friend of mine is in the same situation with wrecked car he is repairing to sell, it has a broken al oil pan. Wanted to bring car and weld in place. I politely declined, told him if he pulled it I'd clean it,weld it and guarentee it. Trying to weld from under will draw oil into play-not good. I know from trying stuff like this that it takes too much time. I charge $60/hr so $480??? It would have been cheaper to pay another $300 to pull it again (I charge $80 to oven weld with warranty). SO you are giving your time away on jobs like that. And even though you don't want to hear it- its taking a chance causing "other" problems welding this in place. Eventually a job will fail and you will get the blame. You will find out how good of a friend you have when the job goes south, and lawyers do not care that you were trying to do a friend a favor and you are a good ole boy.There is no magic advice I can give you to do that job 100 percent perfect, and faster than you did it. Either quote enough to pissant it like you did, loose money or work for peanuts, or pass on stuff like that.  Oh- and have a good day.PeterEquipment:2  old paws2  eyes (that don't look so good)1  bad back
Reply:Tony1-Is this a gas engine? If so--there is significant fuel vapor inside the pan and crankcasethat can produce a 'WHOOSH' jet of flame or nice explosion. Diesel fuel in the pan/case,once the pan gets warm will vaporize and at least flash over.      Solution: take an extra set of drawers with you for jobs like thisArgon/Nitrogen purging can be done--but there's other problems.2-That's a thin, permanent mold casting with lots of internal stress.Additionally, it is 'restrained' by the nature of it's design--deep walls, ribs.It's rigidly bolted to the block.           All of the above are 'Why?' you witnessed stress cracking in the castingoutside your welds--it's restrained and cannot move from the heat and stress of thosewelds, which happened to be stronger than the parent casting--so the casting cracks.           I'd be surprised if this job doesn't have hairline cracks and other assorted leakareas.          I'll be amazed if it doesn't....and further floored--if this pan sees any amount of servicelife, going from hot to cold, cycling back and forth.3-The size of that hole, etc.--requires a new pan. Even a studied repair of the pan-offengine, is really rolling the dice.4-Of course people are searching for cheap. They always have and will be;and with vehicles--IF THEY CAN MAKE THEIR PROBLEM--YOUR PROBLEM...........their problem is solved-and your problems have only begun. I've seen 23 years of that nonsense.5-You've got grit and determination---sometimes the job not taken is the most profitable job!Blackbird
Reply:I don't think that you realize where some of us are coming from.The customer requested the pan be welded as he provided the engine. He wanted to avoid the cost of paying to drop the engine as the pan could not be removed in position, the mechanic wanted to avoid the cost of his mistake of not noticing the pan being broken. Hence he asked me if I could weld a patch on it, which I did.
Reply:ive been doing repair and remodeling for a good while and while it isnt welding its the  same game none the less. ive met all kinds who want to save a buck. saving that buck can often cost em threefold later. i think what people are trying to say is those same nice people your trying to help will throw you under the bus in a second to cover there butt .like zap said now your it because if that thing crack spills and seizes your the first one there coming to for a new engine. you'll have to see if the buddy you helped out returns the favor 350P 30A spool gun cut master 51  syncro 250 other stuff " take a dog off the street and make him prosper and he will not bite you sad the same cannot be said for man" i didnt use punctuation just to piss you off
Reply:Being professional and experienced means you know when to walk away from some "projects".Several experienced professionals have already given you the reasons.  You, on the other hand, are still trying to justify a poor choice.If you continue to take this attitude, I don't think you'll be in "business" long.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Hello everyone and thanks for your opinions, advice.  In past jobs where I wasn't sure the best way to go about it, I posted requests for advice and sent pictures for others to comment on.This particular job was done under a time constraint and I made the judgment call to proceed with it.  In hind sight I should have posted pictures of the damage and requested opinions which might have included, don't do it.The shop owner is aware that he is risking the car coming back if damage occurs as a result of the repair he asked me to do.  He was aware the first time it developed cracks and asked me to attempt to seal it up again.  Which I did.  The liability will fall on him as it was his failure to see the damage the crank case had suffered.  However that is balanced with the fact that the client did not want to pay for dropping the engine again as it was his engine to begin with and he authorized the welding repair.  Although all this is after the fact.I will stay away from repairs of this magnitude both from the comments I've received and also from experiencing the difficulties welding on the casting.  I am inclined however continue to do smaller in position repairs of this nature as these have worked out okay over a several year period since I started offering aluminum repairs to the auto repair shop market.The mechanic reported to me that the car started and runs just fine.  He also told me that there is a tiny drop of oil leaking from the side of the oil pan where I was chasing holes.  Apparently a fine pinhole is present.  He said he'll live with it and tell the client that is the best that could be done under the circumstances.Pre-heat and post-heat: Is a casting like this to be heated and welded all at once?  Should it be under some continuous heat like cast iron while it is welded and then post heated and allowed to cool evenly?I get the drift that this is to be done off the engine and on a table.  I don't have an oven to heat items like this.  Would that be a requirement or would torch heat do?I appreciate the frankness of your comments and I'm not deaf to your opinions and comments.  In every job I take on, I put 100% effort and care into it.  That may mean as was mentioned, walking away from it.  In hind sight, I should have done just that.Thanks,Tony
Reply:One benefit to welding it on the chassis, rather than removing it - with it rigidly mounted to the engine block, it will be restrained in proper position, so will be less likely to warp.  I'd much rather have a visible, and fixable crack form next to the weld, than to have no crack form at all, but then have the oil pan turned into a warped, potato chip that won't bolt up to the engine.If heat damaging the rubber gaskets and nearby seals is a concern, one solution or aid, besides going for minimal heat input and stitch welding (allowing lots of cooling time between stitches) would be to slather some "heat fence" type product beyond the weld area, to suck the heat out.  Putting some near the seals and gaskets at least could be some cheap insurance that those parts don't get fried.  It's a goop type kind of wet putty like product.  It dries out at its exposed to heat.  Not particularly expensive.  Not really fun to get your hands dirty applying it, and especially not fun to get some accidentally smeared on your clean set of TIG welding gloves by accident.  But it does do its job.Downsides to welding it in position I can think of - difficulty to clean, especially back side.  With a big hole like you had, I'll bet that made it easier to clean the back side of the weld joint.  If you were repairing a hairline crack type of job, it would be impossible to really clean the backside.  Another downside is, can't weld the back side.  One side only.  Another downside already mentioned is, possible safety concerns about nearby flammable stuff.  And that could limit your ability to use heat to "bake clean" the part.  And yet one more downside is, difficulty in accessing the weld joint. (Maneuvering your TIG torch, line of sight, and filler rod around obstructions.)  It probably gave your core muscles a good workout.
Reply:Originally Posted by therrera The liability will fall on him as it was his failure to see the damage the crank case had suffered.  However that is balanced with the fact that the client did not want to pay for dropping the engine again as it was his engine to begin with and he authorized the welding repair.
Reply:What a great thread. I just learned more about welding cast aluminum in this series than any other "text book" I have read. Good stuff.E
Reply:40 years in the repair business and made more than my share of mistakes, BUT how could anyone miss a hole that big with an engine on a hoist or cherry picker.I as well would have not taken that job or at least like everyone else mentioned tell them to pull the pan. Twice in my life I did minor welding to oil pans while still on the car, almost unexplainable how desperate I have to be to weld on a oil pan while still in a car.With any engine install you have to work on both the top and bottom of an engine while installing. I am also with the others saying the mech. made the hole himself somehow. There is no way anyone would miss that while installation.But its all over with now and we hope you the best!  For the future though if you want to do repairs on all sorts of stuff I would suggest an oven or hot plate for the shop. Either get a nice flat steel or aluminum plate for bolting down parts. These two things will save you lots of troubles down the road.Bolt part down, heat, weld, post heat, done.
Reply:I think I see what happened!This pic tells the story, the culprit is red.
Reply:Originally Posted by jughead40 years in the repair business and made more than my share of mistakes, BUT how could anyone miss a hole that big with an engine on a hoist or cherry picker.
Reply:poor Jack gets thrown under the bus againidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tigidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tig #2 used for sticklincoln sp100hh125dual arbor grinder polisher30 yrs of hand tools52 pitch blocks 6p-26prake gauge -pitch gaugeG&D prop repair 918-207-6938Hulbert,okla 74441
Reply:Originally Posted by jughead40 years in the repair business and made more than my share of mistakes, BUT how could anyone miss a hole that big with an engine on a hoist or cherry picker.
Reply:A quick response on a couple things.Yes, the exhaust manifold crossover pipe is in fact bolted to the pan at the right rear corner. Has a 10mm bolt running directly through a tab on the pan to the exhaust crossover...so he's good there.And, yes, the floor jack is the culprit. Having worked on Cadillacs for over 24yrs, and seeing about 40 oil pans damaged from floor jacks, jack stands, and even lifts improperly placed, its pretty obvious.This thing has a maaaaaybe chance of survival, not based on the giant hole welded up, but rather the fact that the lower case to oil pan isn't actually a seal, but rather a series of grooved joints cnc'd into a "manifold"...actually a spacer about 1/4" thick, with rubberized seals injected in the grooves, and an additional anerobic sealer applied to the outer edges.BUT, the reason for the cracking and pinhole problems has already been discussed. The cast alum used in these engines is VERY prone to casting flaws and posity. Heat a porous section.....The biggest question I have? Who installs a Northstar for $300? To do it correctly, you need to drop the entire powertrain, unbolt the engine from the trans due to interference angles on the bellhousing, and make DAMN sure you install the rear exhaust manifold into the crossover correctly.I'd almost bet you $300 it has an exhaust leak. 'Cause he didn't install it correctly, installing it from above, and damaged the pan when he couldn't get the engine to drop down...requiring him to "jack" the engine at a severe angle to allow the balancer to wedge between the subframe and the bellhousing. Been to that rodeo many...many times. Seen this too.Hopefully you won't be on the receiving end of any litigation from the second engine failure, which is almost guaranteed, 'cause the original probably had bad head gaskets, like its replacement will too.
Reply:Holy crap.............that's all I can say, I'm in shock  Can't even imagine what the owner thought when he looked under the car...........  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:BC,Probably had thoughts like, " Holy crap, I don't remember running thru a pile of bird sh1t that deep".Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:reminds me of my buddy at his muffler shop when the Cadillacs came with on board computers .......He welded on one and didn't remove the ground cable........The car slammed down to the bottom of the air bags after the computer fried........OPPS......  Miller Dynasty 350Twenty Six HammersThree Crow BarsBig Rock
Reply:Hello all again,Well, what can I say?  Why my mechanic friend made such a mistake is beyond me, but these things happen.  I'm sure it has happened to all of us at one time or another.  Maybe he was distracted, had put in an 18 hour day and was beat, didn't get laid, who knows??Years ago I was a maintenance welder in a Chicago steel mill.  I was assigned to replace or repair a plate that was part of a rolling mill.  These plates start off as 3/4" and get worn down to about an 1/8" at the end where it makes contact with powerful water jets that are used to flash cool steel billets as they rolled through the mill.I was working with a millwright assigned to the project.  I go, measure the plate and didn't notice that it was 3/4" thick at the base, only focusing on the 1/8".  Piece of cake I said to myself and so I took my time getting the plate, cutting it to size and getting back to the rolling to install it.  There were about two hours left in the shift.  We get back and my millwright notices the mistake and asks me "What are you doing?" and points to the correct thickness.  Needless to say I freaked out, ran back to the shop, cut the right plate and got it welded into place just as the shift came to an end.  I'll always remember that mistake and it was such an obvious one too.  No one else has done something like this?About 10 years later I was working in a stainless fab shop on a large machine stand about seven foot tall made out of 8" square tubing.  It was a rectangular deal like a box with diagonal stiffeners made out of like 4" stainless angle.  The braces were set opposite each other running in opposite directions, one going from the top down left to right and the opposite side the opposite so they looked like an "X" when views from the side.I misread the print and installed the stiffeners in the opposite direction, meaning that they still looked like an "X" when viewed from the side, but they were running in reverse directions.  This was a stand worth probably around $15k or so easy.  I thought I was going to get the boot and I told my supervisor about my mess up.  Luckily for me he just said to me "It's a minor mistake, no one's going to notice.  Don't worry about it".My point is my friend made a big mistake, he admits it.  You guys shouldn't sound so flabbergasted.  This stuff happens to the best of us, or am I lying?Thanks again for your feedback.  Part of my logic in posting my questions or doubts is because I want to continue to learn and I enjoy my trade and am compelled to do my best.  I know that others face these things and maybe make worse mistakes but are afraid to talk about it.  I'm not, and I feel that threads such as this one are a great way for all of us to learn from each other.  That's why I'll take my lumps for my mistakes so I can learn to avoid them.  I notice that as of now 734 people have viewed it.  How many will now be able to avoid these mistakes because one of us was willing to talk about it openly and with pictures no less?Take care all,TonyPS: the car is still running OK.  For how long, we'll see.
Reply:Hello all,to answer the question asked of who installs an engine for $300?  The mechanic knew very clearly how the engine gets installed.  In fact he showed me how on this particular model, the engine, tranny and "A" frame comes down from the bottom as one unit.  I asked him why he took the job for only $300?  His reply is indicative of how the economy has hurt the small mom and pop shops in our area.  He replied "I needed the money".  He explained to me all the work involved in putting the engine in.I don't know the details of the job or if he is telling me the whole story or not.  However you should be aware that shops such as his are scrambling to make money where they can and how they can.His shop is located in a poor section of Phoenix where people need to make sometimes drastic choices about how they will spend their money.  It is very common for both clients and shops to cut corners.  The ethical ones will tell the client ahead of time the implication to cutting corners.  The ones without ethics will just cut corners and say nothing.  Buyer beware.  These things are all relative and it is easy to judge people by standards that don't apply.When I was a kid I visited Nicaragua back in the 60's.  I was amazed at the the things shop owners did  as routine business.  They would take brake shoes that were soaked with grease or oil and set them in gasoline and dry them out and reuse them.  They would unwind a starter motor or generator / alternator and hand wind it with rustic jigs in home based improvised shops and put them back into service.  Granted these were the shops where the average person went.If you had bucks, you would go to the dealer's shops where they did things like here in the U.S.   All new or rebuilt parts, OEM everything and so on.  If you compared the two you would say that the poor shops were doing ****ty work and that they should be ashamed of themselves.  Not so!Economics determines everything.  So if the guy with the Caddy lives in this part of town, he is not going to go to the GM dealership to have his car serviced.  He is going to go the local garage and on top of that he will negotiate the price of the job.  If the shop owner is in need, he will take the client even if it means not making much money because some money is better than none at all.  I'm not talking here of being cheap.  I'm talking of economic necessities.Maybe many of you haven't had to deal with this type of situation, but there are many more that are on this board lurking that have.  They just keep it to themselves.  So don't be too quick to judge.  There are top notch mechanics in this part of town that do top notch work with good parts and care that work for half or even a third of what shops in other parts of town charge where the clientele have better jobs and make more money.I cover this part of town and I work for both the poor shop as well as the well off one.  I think my rate is affordable and on occasion I will take a job for less if I know the client can't afford more or I will take a partial trade.Just somethings to think about,Tony
Reply:When did he admit his mistake? In your post you say he told you it was like that when the customer brought it in. Then you tell some of your stories about making a table worth over 15k and messing it all up just to leave it alone and give it to the customer. Sounds like you sorround yourself with some real quality people. Hope I never have to do any business in phoenix
Reply:Hey buddy,If you read real close, I mean REAL CLOSE,  you will discover that from the beginning I wrote that the customer provided the engine, hole in the pan and all.  My friend's mistake was not noticing it in time and installing the engine like that, which he admitted FROM THE BEGINNING.  He acknowledged it and tried to come up with a solution to the problem that involved having me weld the pan instead of dropping it again.I agree that it would be hard to miss a hole like that but I am only repeating what he told me.  It could be he punched the hole in the pan and was embarrassed to say so, who knows?As far as the stainless table goes, I didn't mess it all up at all.  The mistake was cosmetic, not functional.  It was delivered with the rest of the equipment he ordered and was put in service without a hitch.  I told the stories to illustrate that people make mistakes.  I value this forum because it gives me and others (including YOU) a chance to exchange ideas and learn.  Those who are perfect don't need this kind of exchange as they know it all and they can sit back and take cheap shots at others.  There are some who get off at doing that.  I don't.You write as if you've never made a major mistake in your life.  If that's true then you are blessed or a BSer, one of the two.  As far as not doing business in Phoenix, I agree, keep your money, we don't need it.Tony
Reply:You'd think the darn thing would have been DRIPPING for cripes sakes...not easy to miss!
Reply:Tony, I bet by now you are doubting your decision to post this here more than anything. I see it as you doing the best you could given the situation and trying to help out a friend. The road to hell is paved with good intentions but I find myself in these situations also from time to time. I screw something up, one of my employees screws something up or a customer brings something in screwed up. No matter what it still has to be fixed. Stand around and cuss and play the blame game all anybody wants but it still has to be fixed.  Cudos to you on a servicable repair in a very tough situation. As always armchair quarterbacking is always easier.
Reply:Carl H..Posting here is one of the best things you can do..Getting opinions from seasoned experienced welders is the best advice..It shows what can be done..It shows what should not be tried..(In this case anyway)...It tells how it should be done without opening that can of worms that slink out afterwards..Look at one of the pics where the pan is next to the engine block..See that gasket?Toast.It's squirting out of the pan wherever there are no bolts to stop it.In the end there is a right way of doing things and there is the hack way of doing things and then there is the just plain wrong way of doing things..Granted..Maybe just maybe the thing will actually hold oil..The collateral damage is not worth it.We like it when the Good..Bad and just plain Ugly is posted..Lessons are taught everyday in real life..This is just one in the many posted examples....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Hi CarlH, Zapster and all,I was a little reluctant to post the pictures of the finished job as I knew it looked real rough and would no doubt encourage some sharp criticism.  However I think that lessons we learn both good and bad are valuable to us all and I enjoy using this forum to both learn and pass on things I have picked up over the years.  So no, I don't regret posting my question about this job.I know there are many of us who have or will do the same thing as I did and some will walk right into a trap, like I did.  I learned a long time ago that just because someone has been doing something a long time doesn't mean that they are doing it right.  It just means they have been doing it a long time.  Well I would like to say that I have been welding a long time and that I do it right.  I make my share of mess ups along the way but as long as they are not repeated, then I think it was a positive experience, like this job. I took it as a learning experience for me and for others.Thanks,Tony
Reply:Originally Posted by therreraHi CarlH, Zapster and all,I was a little reluctant to post the pictures of the finished job as I knew it looked real rough and would no doubt encourage some sharp criticism.  However I think that lessons we learn both good and bad are valuable to us all and I enjoy using this forum to both learn and pass on things I have picked up over the years.  So no, I don't regret posting my question about this job.I know there are many of us who have or will do the same thing as I did and some will walk right into a trap, like I did.  I learned a long time ago that just because someone has been doing something a long time doesn't mean that they are doing it right.  It just means they have been doing it a long time.  Well I would like to say that I have been welding a long time and that I do it right.  I make my share of mess ups along the way but as long as they are not repeated, then I think it was a positive experience, like this job. I took it as a learning experience for me and for others.Thanks,Tony
Reply:I hear there's a shop in Phoenix that has done some oil pan repairs.  Didn't even need to remove the pan from the engine.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.