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Please help me... I am doing "routine" maintenance on this old Evinrude 140 outboard motor.. Replacing the thermostats by removing this simple 4 bolt flange.. And 3 of the 4 stainless bolts EASILY sheared.. It did not take much... Please tell me wise people... How would u extract these bolts... Thanks u in advanced..Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLincoln Weldanpower AC/DCLincoln LN-25Miller WC-115a Miller Spoolmatic 30aCheck out my youtube TV Channel
Reply:You can try cleaning it up and welding a nut onto the studs. Put a little heat on the studs before welding so the weld grabs the stud. Also, if it works put a little heat on the manifold so the studs will turn out easier. That's what I would try first. If that doesn't work I would try drilling a hole in the middle of the stud and try using an easyout tap.I'm not wise either, just a dumb azz old welder.Last edited by kctgb; 03-11-2014 at 08:06 PM.
Reply:Same way I always do it - weld a washer on, weld a nut on the washer and then fill the middle.Tap tap tap lightly on a wrench - repeat if needed. Sometimes it takes more than once. I'm not wise or wonderful though - just hate drilling Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:I have only been told of this by longtime outboard mechanic never seen it myself. Supposedly if you take a stick welder and stick the rod onto the seized bolt it will superheat the bolt and expand it and after it cools it will free up. Supposedly doing it that way contains the heat into mostly just the bolt. Then it's vise grips and left hand drills and "un" easy outs.Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by bandaidmdI have only been told of this by longtime outboard mechanic never seen it myself. Supposedly if you take a stick welder and stick the rod onto the seized bolt it will superheat the bolt and expand it and after it cools it will free up. Supposedly doing it that way contains the heat into mostly just the bolt. Then it's vise grips and left hand drills and "un" easy outs.Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
Reply:Like mentioned weld nuts onto the stubs, let them cool down on there own. Heat the surrounding area, then take a Crayola crayon, your choice of color , put it as close to the nut as you can get it and the heat should pull the wax into the threads.Miller xmt304, Miller S22 p12, Miier Maxstar SD, Miller 252 w 30A, Miller super32p12, Lincoln Ranger 9, Thermal Arc 181I with spoolgun, Hypertherm 10000 ,Smith torches. Esab 161lts miniarc.
Reply:Is it irreplaceable? Find someone better qualified. If you say "I've got nothing to loose", Heat the studs one at a time using care not to overheat the aluminum. The stainless should expand, creating shoulder room, soft, it should compress. It will then cool and shrink. Fit a stainless washer over the stud, and weld in place, then a nut welding both inside the nut and outside the nut to washer. Let cool, use penetrating oil and very gently move it back and forth until it frees.
Reply:Everybody responding to this post, be on notice, that this is a CAST ALUMINUM block, not iron or steel. Plowboy forgot or did not think to mention this fact. So please tailor your responses accordingly. I too would say to put a stainless nut over it, and weld the nut to the stud left sticking out. After it is cooled, put a correct size wrench on it and while tapping the nut try to turn it out. Sometimes it helps to rock the nut back and forth while doing this, not just turning it counter clock wise, tighten, loosen, tighten, loosen. Flood it liberally with a good penetrating fluid before and during this procedure. It may take more than small love taps, too.
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BIs it irreplaceable? Find someone better qualified. If you say "I've got nothing to loose", Heat the studs one at a time using care not to overheat the aluminum. The stainless should expand, creating shoulder room, soft, it should compress. It will then cool and shrink. Fit a stainless washer over the stud, and weld in place, then a nut welding both inside the nut and outside the nut to washer. Let cool, use penetrating oil and very gently move it back and forth until it frees.
Reply:You don't need 316 filler to weld the nut/stud. 309 would be a good choice but 70S2 should work just fine if you have it. Here's a video so you can see how its done.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauEverybody responding to this post, be on notice, that this is a CAST ALUMINUM block, not iron or steel. Plowboy forgot or did not think to mention this fact. So please tailor your responses accordingly. I too would say to put a stainless nut over it, and weld the nut to the stud left sticking out. After it is cooled, put a correct size wrench on it and while tapping the nut try to turn it out. Sometimes it helps to rock the nut back and forth while doing this, not just turning it counter clock wise, tighten, loosen, tighten, loosen. Flood it liberally with a good penetrating fluid before and during this procedure. It may take more than small love taps, too.
Reply:Would love to ask Jody to come over and help.. I don't tig, only stick and mig... and I don't mig stainless often enough to be confident.. Thanks though..Lincoln Weldanpower AC/DCLincoln LN-25Miller WC-115a Miller Spoolmatic 30aCheck out my youtube TV Channel
Reply:Use your mig and weld a nut to it, there's nothing to be confident about. Its just steel You can try using a cut off wheel and putting slots into the studs, try to turn them out with a flat head screw driver. Looks like they may be too stuck for that though.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Stainless is still just steel - shouldn't regular mig wire still work fine?Mostly just using the weld for heat and someplace to grab.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:I would think if you use a mig cranked up to weld the nut on it shouldn't have any affect on the cast aluminum. The mig welder won't be on long enough to transfer much heat to the block I would think.
Reply:Its cast aluminum ,not fine china or the holy grail. The little heat from welding is nothing. Mild steel rod, wire or stick is fine. I would try one of the cordless impact drivers on the welded nut after its cooled if you have access to one.Miller xmt304, Miller S22 p12, Miier Maxstar SD, Miller 252 w 30A, Miller super32p12, Lincoln Ranger 9, Thermal Arc 181I with spoolgun, Hypertherm 10000 ,Smith torches. Esab 161lts miniarc.
Reply:Truthfully, I never even think twice about it - it works so well I just do it right away and keep moving Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J D I would try one of the cordless impact drivers on the welded nut after its cooled if you have access to one.
Reply:They seem to have more impact action verses torque. I only stated it because it WORKS. I deal with broken bolts almost daily, this aint my first rodeo.Miller xmt304, Miller S22 p12, Miier Maxstar SD, Miller 252 w 30A, Miller super32p12, Lincoln Ranger 9, Thermal Arc 181I with spoolgun, Hypertherm 10000 ,Smith torches. Esab 161lts miniarc.
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauFlood it liberally with a good penetrating fluid before and during this procedure. It may take more than small love taps, too.
Reply:You only need the weld the nut trick on the shortie..The other 2 can be done with REAL vice grips...THE REAL ONES.Weld nut on short one...LET COOL.Then take a torch and heat around each stud on the outside of the boss and after it gets hot cool the studs it off with PB Blaster.(Do this OUTSIDE)Might take 2 times but the blaster will get inside and do it's thing.After cooling remove studs.Poof....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Hello Plowboy, you might be far beyond this point by now but sometimes it helps to drill a small hole through the broken stud/bolt after you have welded the nut/washer combination on and fill it with penetrating oil and let that soak as well before you attempt to remove it, this allows the penetrating oil access to the inside where there is less likelihood of corrosion to prevent the migration of the oil. Others have already spoken to the benefits of the heating and cooling of the broken fastener due the application of welding and it's ability to "break it loose because of the associated physics". Then as others have also eluded to, carefully rock it back and forth to free it up additionally as you attempt to unscrew it. Good luck on your task and best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:This motor must have spent its life in salt water. The dissimilar metals (stainless and aluminum) have corroded and fused, and the base metals weakened. Even if you had exercised better technique in attempting to remove the bolts (soak over and over in AeroKroil/apply heat/hand impact driver...) these still might never want to come out. Once you have exhausted all attempts at removal by welding, either a vertical milling machine or elox could do it.
Reply:Originally Posted by oxygen454I completely agree with the penetrating fluid. Our shop truck had the spark plugs stuck in the aluminum engine block. We soaked the plugs for 4 days and they came out real easy.
Reply:And when you get them out use a liberal amount of antiseize on the threads, both male and female, so you don't have to go thru this scenario next time. MikeOl' Stonebreaker "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop sawOriginally Posted by dubl_tWhat fluid did you use?I mix my own for general purpose, but if it's something really giving me fits, or I want to wear a pleasant aroma (don't ask), I use Kroil.
Reply:I work on supersized marine everything for a living (5000 hp tug boats). For removing smaller stuck fasteners I generally braze a stainless nut onto the remains using a 50N brazing alloy. It has a tensile strength of 120ksi which is way higher than most welding rods. It can bond almost anything to anything. I have no access to a TIG welder so it lets me control heat with minimal equipment. The heat from brazing shrinks the fastener just like welding and makes it back right out.
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauIs there something SPECIAL about the cordless impact wrenches that make them right for this job that a corded or pneumatic impact wrench couldn't do???? Either way, even if I had an impact wrench, I would not use it in this instance. Damn Plowboy, you sure knew how the title this thread to get everyone's attention quick, and get responses. Now you just need to figure out which route to take on this project. Do you have any pix of the boat this outboard is on?
Reply:Often steel studs in aluminum alloy are NOT stainless. Generally stainless against aluminum is worse for corrosion than mild steel and aluminum. Check the original old stud and see if it is magnetic.
Reply:steel and aluminum do not play well together, you end up with galvanic corrosion which is nearly as strong as welding the two together. Getting broken bolts out of aluminum parts is always an uphill battle, it can be done but it takes a little more patience.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanOften steel studs in aluminum alloy are NOT stainless. Generally stainless against aluminum is worse for corrosion than mild steel and aluminum. Check the original old stud and see if it is magnetic.
Reply:Originally Posted by PlowboyYea, if you are interested in what I've done so far, check out my youtube channel.. I'm trying to document everything for someone else doing the same/similar thing.. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...q0PXAfiA4TMrOo
Reply:I have worked on OLD CRAP boats (The only ones I can afford). My only addition is that judicious heat from a propane torch on all things cast aluminum help immensely with stuck fasteners.An alternative to welding a nut on the long ones...use a file to make flats on either side of the fasteners for increased grip before using vice grips, heat, and prayer.Chay
Reply:Originally Posted by bandaidmdI have only been told of this by longtime outboard mechanic never seen it myself. Supposedly if you take a stick welder and stick the rod onto the seized bolt it will superheat the bolt and expand it and after it cools it will free up. Supposedly doing it that way contains the heat into mostly just the bolt. Then it's vise grips and left hand drills and "un" easy outs.Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerweldStainless steel WORSE than mild steel in aluminum?That is not my experience. There may be some stainless steel alloys that do better than other stainless steel alloys when used with aluminum, but I don't know which are most corrosion resistant. And, magnetically speaking, there are some stainless alloys which have magnetic properties, so a simple magnet test might not be conclusive on that either.
Reply:Originally Posted by BistineauYou mentioned on there about reconnecting the VRO system or not. If it were my doing, I would just leave it disconnected and mix the gas and oil. If the VRO pump fails and you get no indication of it, the engine will soon fail too, due to lack of lubrication. At least with the oil in the gas, you know it is getting lube and no chance of failure. Sure you may use a little more oil than you would with the VRO system, but for me there is that peace of mind thing going on that the engine is going to stay running with the oil in the gas, and not die a premature death from lack of lubrication.
Reply:Originally Posted by Plowboy As for super-heating with a stuck electrode... I can see myself messing that up big time.
Reply:I seriously doubt you will do any good with the propane heating to get these loose. Welding a nut to the studs will do way better. Reach inside the nut with a stick rod or your MIG and weld the nut to the stud. The idea is not to "stick" the rod to the stud, just to weld the nut to it securely. This will give sufficient heat to do the job, way more than a propane torch. This concentrates MORE of the heat into the stud first, then it dissipates into the surrounding metal as it cools. After it cools then use penetrating oil to try to work it loose. Forget the propane torch, you are just spinning your wheels on that idea.
Reply:use a nut the size of the bolts as a centering guide and then lightly use a drill bit the size if the stud to get a center mark on the studs. Then carefully drill the studs with a 1/8" bit. This gives you a center hole. If welding the nut on just breaks the studs again, you have a centered hole and can drill the studs out completely. Then use a heli-coil kit to drill and tap for a heli-coil.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanIf one looks at a galvanic table you will see that stainless is much further apart than mild steel and aluminum. I have sad experience with stainless bolts in aluminum. Galvanized bolts in aluminum do much better. austenetic stainless steels are non-magnetic or at least weakly magnetic. ( 300 series)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series
Reply:I would heat it with the torch, let it cool, then hit it with penetrating oil and let it sit for a day. Then I would come back and reheat it with the torch, and try vice grips. I am not a machinist, but my dad is a hell of a machinist, and this is always the advice he gives. Also, he says you can try ez outs, but they never really work. His opinion, not mine Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Like everyone said, simply mig an oversized nut on it with regular steel wire. I would put a 1/2" blk iron nut over the stub, center the mig and fill it up. It's not going to hurt the aluminum. Be aware some older outboard blocks are magnesium, although I don't think that changes anything. PB blaster would be my choice of penetrating oil.
Reply:Take it to an auto machine shop that has a electrical discharge burnout machine. My shop does this for $15 to $20 per broken bolt, tap, or stud.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:Once you get the bolt studs out and put it all back together, be sure to put some gasket glue on the new bolts...this will keep seawater out of the threads and prevent most of the galvanic corrosion between the SS and alum. (This works better than anti-seize, and is standard procedure on outboard engines.)
Reply:I know everyone has their own favorite methods.i find that saltwater still does it's evil when you use anti-seize on threads. I use mercury quicksilver sealer. it keeps water out of the threads.miller thunderbolt 250vlincoln square wave tig 175 prolincoln idealarc mig sp250everlast tig 210EXTeverlast power plasma 50chicago electric (hf) 130 tig/90 arcchicago electric 90 amp flux wire3 sets oxy/acet
Reply:Weld on a nut and turn them out. Or find a new (used) head for $50 and slap it on.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterYou only need the weld the nut trick on the shortie..The other 2 can be done with REAL vice grips...THE REAL ONES.Weld nut on short one...LET COOL.Then take a torch and heat around each stud on the outside of the boss and after it gets hot cool the studs it off with PB Blaster.(Do this OUTSIDE)Might take 2 times but the blaster will get inside and do it's thing.After cooling remove studs.Poof....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonTake it to an auto machine shop that has a electrical discharge burnout machine. My shop does this for $15 to $20 per broken bolt, tap, or stud.
Reply:With all the suggestions on this, those studs may as well just give up and fall out of the holes for you. Make sure once you have gotten them out, to run a bottoming tap down through them to clean the threads before reassembly. Have you made any headway on working on this yet? I'm sure everyone that has commented is curious as to the outcome, and what method you eventually use to get this done. Keep us updated on what's happening with this fix.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanOften steel studs in aluminum alloy are NOT stainless. Generally stainless against aluminum is worse for corrosion than mild steel and aluminum. Check the original old stud and see if it is magnetic. |
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发表于 2021-8-31 23:17:47