how could a amish weld without oxygen or electricity

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i was asked a interesting question about welding by a amish man.is there any way to weld without using oxygen or electricity? he has a forge ,but is looking for a more modern way .he can use map or lp. any thoughts?
Reply:Oak, and Hickory wood rod for strength, Walnut rod if it has to look good!
Reply:He can use his forge to weld steel heated in his forge and hammered over an anvil.  I believe they used borax as a flux.  Any blacksmith should be able to show him.As for mapp and lp gas they don't burn hot enough with air to melt steel and iron.Afaik the only process I can think of which doesn't involve electricity or oxygen is explosive welding, which is not very practical for use in the shop. "The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Me and my brother were just talking about amish people today as a matter of fact. He met an Amish man when he went out to the builder show in Texas a few years ago. This man said that they were allowed to use power tools as long as the electricity didn't come from the power grid. He said there was no problem using a generator. This man was from Ohio, so I don't know if classes of amish (Guess that's what you would say?) have different rules they follow? Just a thought.kidtigger24  They think I’m crazy, but I know better. It is not I who am crazy. It is I who am MAD!
Reply:Many amish allow modern methods ( power tool, electricity, ect) for work but not for leasure. But as far as primitive methods a nother vote for hammer welding here.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:Originally Posted by cowskii was asked a interesting question about welding by a Amish man.is there any way to weld without using oxygen or electricity? he has a forge ,but is looking for a more modern way .he can use map or lp. any thoughts?
Reply:he already uses a forge .looking for another way.he is a tennessee amish.i believe each group differs on exactly what can or can not be used.he is making custom iron work .he gets some one else to weld it after he forms it.he can not use elec. or bottled oxygen.i do not understand all his beliefs,but he is hard working.he has shod  my horses for many years.so i am trying to help him.
Reply:yea this realy weird process called FORGE WELDING you tube it!if he wants a more modern way he will need O2 or elec great time to quit being amish
Reply:Would he be able to braze it after bringing the pieces to temp. in the forge."Liberalism is a mental disorder" Dr. Savage
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24Me and my brother were just talking about amish people today as a matter of fact. He met an Amish man when he went out to the builder show in Texas a few years ago. This man said that they were allowed to use power tools as long as the electricity didn't come from the power grid. He said there was no problem using a generator. This man was from Ohio, so I don't know if classes of amish (Guess that's what you would say?) have different rules they follow? Just a thought.kidtigger24
Reply:Some of the Amish around here make good money on the belief that they do good quality work. They build barns, have someone drive them and use nailguns and power tools, no different than anyone else. Also make cabinets, again no different means than anyone else. Capitalizing on the reputation.Gas powered welder is the only thing I can think of to help your friend. Or stick to the original ways.Tim Beeker.
Reply:Originally Posted by A SquaredSome don't ride in cars, others can ride in cars as long as they're not driving.
Reply:Originally Posted by noriteAs for mapp and lp gas they don't burn hot enough with air to melt steel and iron.
Reply:Welding is a dilemma i suppose. But the folks in Eastern Iowa/Amish I believe?  set a table worth driving 1/2 way across the country to enjoy.  The BEST smoked pork chops I have ever eaten in my life for ex.   I suppose an engine driven welder might be ok? sure would help make life a  little easier for them.My three grown daughters never fail to say "Welcome to the 21st Century Dad".  Hmm dang fangled modern anyways,Last edited by PapaLion; 06-01-2011 at 09:32 AM.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:In my neck of the woods the Amish capitalize on the present economy including Amish welders. Close by there is an Amish welding shop that has every piece of modern equipment a normal English shop would have. Shears, metal brakes, hydraulic press, ironworker, metal lathe, stick welders, wire feed welders, grinders, and more. The only thing different is they run everything from a diesel powered generator, and an air compressor. Their shop lighting comes from gas lamps. They undercut an Englishman's shop rate by about 60% and have tons of work mainly because of their rate and also the fact that many people think that since they are Amish, they are the best craftsman. The area in which I live is loaded with Amish doing anything from Residential tree work to Carpenters, Roofers, Equipment Operators, and Landscapers. They all hire a driver, preferably with tools and a nice truck to haul them around in. If you are an Englishman working in  any type of trade that can provide top quality craftsmanship in the work that you do, I guarantee you will not get hired to do the job. Don't get me wrong, everyone needs to work; however, in my area the capitalization of the "Amish Craftsmen" is about equal to working close to the Mexican border.
Reply:Amish just use a forge and pour to avoid electric and bottled gas.BobI'm spending my Kids inheritance, I dont like him that much anyway!!!!!!Enuff tools to do the job, enough sense to use em.Anybody got a spare set of kidneys?  Trade?
Reply:I would think most Amish allow modernized welding of some form.  I know some guys that build sawmills and they use MIG.  Funny, though they don't have internet or email, but you can fax an email to them.  Unless he is from the strictest sect of the Amish,  he should be able to use at least  Acetylene.  It has been around a very long time.  He could possibly find an old acetylene generator and produce his own Acetylene.  Its not modern exactly.  Acetylene has been used for making lanterns and lights.  Oxygen may be the issue as stated. Again, he may be able to use some sort of oxygen generator.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by RbeckettAmish just use a forge and pour to avoid electric and bottled gas.Bob
Reply:There is a lot of hipocracy with the amish when it comes to making a buck. Tell him to get a diesel driven welder if he's allowed. My parents have bought quite a bit of furniture from one amish man. I wish I had a picture of his shop. He has a diesel engine in a shed attached to his shop that drives a shaft, pulleys and belts driving all his wood working equipment. Alot of his equipment is shop built. One thing I will say about this shop in particular, you won't get some glued together MDF with laminate furniture, it's all solid wood and jointery. Other amish craftsmen I've seen are no better/ no worse than anyone else and use just as modern tools as you or I.Powcon 400SM2-PD60 wire feedersMiller XR controlAlumapro push/pull gunSpeedglas 9100xBFH
Reply:Originally Posted by reverse polarityWhat Amish are these? What part of the country?
Reply:Electricity will lead to many temptations , but bottled gas wont Sad to see superstition in the 21 century .That death cult .. Chritianity has a lot to answer for.A good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:Get the SPECIFIC, written rules of engagement he has to observe, then find a compliant way to go.Is there a DATE cutoff? 1903 is approximately the industrial start date for acetylene use, and there is plenty of documentation supporting that. It was WELL established more than one hundred years ago.Cylinder history, again more than a century:http://www.weldingandgasestoday.org/...nder-pressure/Is there an INTERACTION with outside society cutoff? Know the rules, then find example processes. It is likely that the fellows spiritual bosses may be unaware of how OLD OA welding is.  Some free downloadable books from long ago:http://www.archive.org/search.php?qu...iatype%3Atexts
Reply:hmmm...how about a nuclear laser...no electricity really....just excite the gas using raw radiation instead of electricity.I know it's a trite answer, but honestly, if the guys religion and way of life prohibits him from using a MIG like everyone else, why is he trying to look for a loophole?  If he's looking for a loophole, in religion that just doesn't make any sense to me.Just for clarification here, I don't have anything against the Amish   In fact, I find their way of life extremely admirable.  Also, I'm not religious...in fact I'm areligious.  But I figure if someone is going to look for loopholes in their beliefs they should just accept that they aren't agreeing with something in their beliefs and then adapt to that lack of belief by doing what they feel like regardless of the law of their religion.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:What is he wanting welded? Thickness of material, types, etc.? Also as mentioned earlier just what are the restraints his community are under? Some of the Amish in this area can use a diesel tractor if the wheels are removed to power P.T.O. driven equipment and hydraulic powered. Some can generate power for the milk chillers but they can't be connected to the grid? The Mennonites have even more diverse rules as each community makes there own rulings as to what and how."Liberalism is a mental disorder" Dr. Savage
Reply:If he wants to get more modern, he needs to look at the whole "amish" thing first.  I was raised mennonite (though loosley) so I am familiar with the situation.  It should be made pretty cut and dry for him by the bishop what is and is not allowed.Have we all gone mad?I teach in Amish country (they have there own schools). The ones in my county are old order and very conservative. They use D. engines to run the machine shop and he hires an englishman (you and me) to weld what needs welded. I have seen him braze a few things.Dave ReberWadsworth Ohio
Reply:i could not understand bottled gas good ,oxygen and acetylene no.the diesel engine they use is hooked up to pulleys and shafts no electricity .the group i deal with make top quality  stuff reasonable. there are others that are amish in name only.
Reply:lots of folks on here saying in one line how they dont know much about the amish culture; and in the next line calling them hypocrites. Too bad your white man culture cant generate a reputation of superior craftsmanship, so let's blame everyone else.#1, this isnt the OT section, so shove your woe is me stories over there. #2, this isnt the OT section, so if you cant contribute, dont say anything.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:Originally Posted by tenpinslots of folks on here saying in one line how they dont know much about the amish culture; and in the next line calling them hypocrites. Too bad your white man culture cant generate a reputation of superior craftsmanship, so let's blame everyone else.#1, this isnt the OT section, so shove your woe is me stories over there. #2, this isnt the OT section, so if you cant contribute, dont say anything.
Reply:Too bad your white man culture cant generate a reputation of superior craftsmanship, so let's blame everyone else.
Reply:Originally Posted by tenpinslots of folks on here saying in one line how they dont know much about the amish culture; and in the next line calling them hypocrites. Too bad your white man culture cant generate a reputation of superior craftsmanship, so let's blame everyone else.#1, this isnt the OT section, so shove your woe is me stories over there. #2, this isnt the OT section, so if you cant contribute, dont say anything.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmallIndustrial Revolution-style craftsmanship isn't unique to the Amish, the Industrial Revolution is mostly a specific outcome of "white man culture" of which the Amish are a very minor offshoot, and there is ample non-Amish "white man culture" craftsmanship tradition elsewhere that predates them. Guilds (with masters and apprentices to maintain skill continuity) come to mind, which later begat Unions who train their members in highly skilled trades, such as WELDING. Sorry you don't do history, but ignorance looks foolish so correct it before inserting foot in mouth.It is a reasonable question to ask what technology is SPECIFICALLY permitted, or allowed by omission, by any ruleset be it government, technical directive, or superstition. If it's "allowed" then it isn't a "loophole". Contacting the Office of Primary Responsibility is done in the military for Technical Order questions, OSHA publishes interpretations, and a superstitionist has a "chain of command" too. That chain of command may have made a general decision based on layman's knowledge, so providing them with the technical information to refine their guidance is legitimate and a worthy TECHNICAL question. The context may be odd, but a tech question is still a tech question.
Reply:Living across the water in England I know next to nothing about The Amish. So this thread is very interesting.Is it fair to say they are a type of Luddite?
Reply:Yes, except of the "opt out" sort rather than the loom-smashing variety, and it's a "spiritual group bonding" as opposed to a workforce prosperity issue.Their mechanism of control is cultural, and the calculated, specifically chosen degrees of disconnect from larger US society tends to keep them among each other. It doesn't appear punitive, but rather a technique of "not equipping" their youth for larger society while at the same time allowing some exploration of it.  Sophisticated manipulation, and interesting reading.Thank King George for flushing the loons to the Colonies, which is much ignored by Colonials.Many "English", being utter blind slobbering desperate suckers for marketing based on "good old days" fantasy propaganda (never mind the Hobbesian lives most people led back then) often adopt a romantic view. Fair enough, considering the totally synthetic branding used by "English" marketers! My view of primitive religionists isn't as nice, but the Amish don't bother anyone else much and that's a commendable quality.
Reply:Theres an Amish settle ment 12 miles from me.They use a diesel powered welder to make gates and roll metal roofing from flat stock.They have a small store with gas lights so I expect they could use oxy/ acetylene welding too.They do use photo voltaic panels and batteries since kerosene has gotten so expensive.
Reply:Originally Posted by tenpinslots of folks on here saying in one line how they dont know much about the amish culture; and in the next line calling them hypocrites. Too bad your white man culture cant generate a reputation of superior craftsmanship, so let's blame everyone else.#1, this isnt the OT section, so shove your woe is me stories over there. #2, this isnt the OT section, so if you cant contribute, dont say anything.
Reply:look at it this way folks...is there any question after this as to whether or not tenpins is going to end up with a big 'ol "Banned" under his name at some point?  Just let him go quietly into the night and even if it's not for his statements here, eventually he'll be banned for something else just as stupid or even worse.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:Originally Posted by wintermutelook at it this way folks...is there any question after this as to whether or not tenpins is going to end up with a big 'ol "Banned" under his name at some point?  Just let him go quietly into the night and even if it's not for his statements here, eventually he'll be banned for something else just as stupid or even worse.--Wintermute
Reply:Originally Posted by tnjindI'm not looking for him to be banned, not at all. Heck I probably push the line myself.I like the different views.
Reply:WMC represent!   Term is not technically derogatory, and I'm happy to claim mah Caucasian Kultur cuz if ya gonna mobb, mobb deep!  Anyhow, post whatever results/techno-dispensation comes of the research for the entertainment value. I wanna know the rules of engagement.
Reply:guero isn't derogatory either...until it's used in a derogatory manner.  Jew isn't derogatory until used as such.  The list goes on and on.  If he didn't mean it in a derogatory manner, then I'd be happy to hear him say that.  I'm caucasian too...mutt actually .  I don't give a sh!t if someone calls me guero in a friendly manner...as soon as someone says it in a derogatory manner then they can accept the consequences.  Same thing I guess as alot of terms, they can be used in two manners...but the context is what sets the tone.  That's my 2c in this arena.  If he didn't mean it as an insult then great and all is well...if he did then he can walk down the net to the next forum as far as I'm concerned.--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:So....back to the original question.Would one of the welders that uses car batteries be sufficient for the amish mans use?Tim Beeker.
Reply:If no electricity can be used, that kinda kills batteries doesn't it?--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:I didn't know about batteries..........but whatever they find that welds uses electricity ezcept gas welding and thats been done for many years, should already know about it.Tim Beeker.
Reply:It's useless to propose solutions until the rules are known, then options narrow.
Reply:Originally Posted by BrettElectricity will lead to many temptations , but bottled gas wont Sad to see superstition in the 21 century .That death cult .. Chritianity has a lot to answer for.
Reply:Years ago I  saw a picture of a nice woodworking shop  which was owned and worked by Amish.... it was an old fashioned single power shaft with the machines connected to that by flat belts... run by a diesel engine..  Neatly sitting near the base was a nice 12 volt battery.... So I knew there had to be some exceptions/interpretations  to the electricity rules....Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Take a welder/generator and remove the engine. In its place attach a water wheel, start welding stream-side. Or place the generator in the middle of a circle. Attach a high ratio gear box to the generator. Attach 10' pole to the input of the gearbox and attach a donkey to the other end. Tie a stick to the donkeys harnes protruding 1' past his nose and then attach a carrot to the stick. Weld until the donkey gets tired, then feed donkey the carrot. I'm an amish genious.Powcon 400SM2-PD60 wire feedersMiller XR controlAlumapro push/pull gunSpeedglas 9100xBFH
Reply:Lincoln had a belt-drive SA-200. That or an older motor-generator machine modded to be driven off line shafting would be quite sexy.
Reply:Some where around my house I have a picture of an amish welding rig.  It was a one horse 4 wheel cart complete with torchs, a bench grinder, angle grinder, hand operated angle/bar sheer and a short hood Sa-200.   Its pretty slick looking.  I will try to find it again.BTW come from a amish, mennonite, pa dutch background.  I get a few horse and buggy jokes from my friends now and thenLincoln 300 Vantage 2008300 Commander 1999SA250 1999SA200 1968Miller Syncrowave 200XMT350MPA/S-52E/xr-15Xtreme 12vs Millermatic 251 w/30A  Millermatic 251 Dialarc 250 Hypertherm 1250 GEKA & Bantom Ironwokers