AC Stick welder why/why not?

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22 years ago I welded in a fabrication shop. Mig and Stick. Went to school etc.I'm starting to do some small scale mild steel stuff. Making some bbq pits and the like. I've been borrowing a friends Lincoln 140 w/fluxcore and its done everything I need so far but it is borrowed.I was thinking I would get a buzz box to start and as I make some money on what I make, I'll buy a larger Mig, read 220v.Any reason an AC buzz box would be bad? Other than welding out of position ofcourse.Thanks for any thoughts.
Reply:They are the most bang for your buck. Out of position welds are a matter of technique. The machine will not limit out of position welds.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Pros:It's the cheapest way to start weldingWelds thicker material than the little wire feed machine.Cons:Not as nice as a DC stick welder.Requires more skill than the wire feed.Requires post-weld cleanup of flux (as compared to gas shielded wire feed).Requires more post-weld grinding if the beads need to look as nice as mig (can get close with 7018 and just chipping the flux)Requires heavier electrical power than the little wire feed (not really a bad thing)You can do plenty of good work with one, and it's a lot of bang for the buck (in the $250 range new, $100 range for good used).I have a buzzbox sitting around as an emergency backup machine, but I'd never use it until all my other options have failed.Out of position is not any more of a problem than on DC.  6011, 7018AC or any other fast-freeze rod should get you there.Edit: another thought.  The buzzbox may not turn down enough to weld thin stuff like the little wirefeed can.  Using the smallest rod you can find will help.Last edited by AndyA; 05-03-2012 at 02:44 PM.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:I have to say I like welding with my Lincoln 225 but it's not as fast as my wire welders. When I need to burn (really burn) some metal together I reach for my old AC buzz box. I can do everything with that old welder including out of position welding.By the way, I paid $15.00 for my buzz box at a garage sale and I've got my money out of it plus more.Last edited by kctgb; 05-03-2012 at 05:53 PM.
Reply:A   AC/ DC  should not cost much more and you will notice the difference in rod burning.. DC will be smoother . Depending on how much you want to invest, you could get a stick/ tig machine that will give you another option.
Reply:I'm NOT an expert or professional welder but........  I agree with the first 5 posters here with my own opinion as a hobbiest welder.  I really like what Tanglediver and AndyA have to say about the matter, again this is my "hobbiest" view point only.  I personally LOVE mig welding.  However, I LOOOOOVE stick welding!  Even though I suck at it many times and would NEVER weld something critical with it, It's so much frick'n fun!!!!!  I did make a BBQ, steel shooting targets, and a couple work benches to name only a few projects since I've owned one.  I think it should be part of everyone's "tool box" for certain welding proceedures that can't be done with a mig or tig welder.  For instance, welding in a really tight area where a mig or tig cup (torch) cant get into, the nice slim stick electrode fits just fine.   Also, I'm a weird guy, because I've only met a handful of folks here on this forum that like me, prefer to weld with AC instead of DC.  Don't ask me why, by my welds turn out much nicer with AC.  I'll post a picture of some of my AC stick welds when i get home tonight and post them here so you can judge for yourself.  I say, if you can afford a "buzz box," then get one.  Yes, having the DC option is apprently "better," but that all depends on the "judge."  I'm my own judge for my own welds.  Do what makes you happy and also, learn from the pros and more experienced welders here on this forum.  That's just my .02cents worth of opinion on the subject.  Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:the newer 7018ac rods have gotten very good.I figure if you can burn a 1/8 7018 you can weld up the world,check craiglist for a good used one and weld away.
Reply:I chose to start with oxy-acetylene to build my skill and help me learn how the metal behaves during welding.  After that was under my belt I did a pile of research on electric processes and settled on stick for the following reasons:1. I build and repair tractor implements more than anything else - lots of plate and often messy conditions.  Stick excels at a quick repair on heavy steel.2. I don't do production work, I can't afford a high duty cycle machine so the argument that MIG lets you run uninterrupted for long periods isn't relevant, swapping electrodes doesn't hurt my productivity.3. Consumables for stick are as cheap as it gets for the weekend welder.  No gas, buy the rods in 5lb boxes at less than $15 each, no cups, tips, etc. to worry about.4. Access for the electrode - I can bend the rod and get it into corners that no other process can reach.  Really nice when you need to repair an awkward join on a box grader without tearing the whole thing apart.I use DC almost exclusively - just like the way it works but the list above is still relevant if you are using AC.The only weakness I have found with stick is that I have a hard time making clean joints on this sheet metal - but the OA torch works magic in those cases so I can still get the job done just fine.I don't see myself ever getting a wire welder - I just haven't found anything that I can't do with the SMAW or OA gear that I already have.  I am not saying that GMAW isn't more efficient - the guys who do this for a living seem to like it and that's fine - for my occasional welding needs I just don't see a fit for the MIG machine.Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:My first welder was an o/a and an ac thunderbolt.  I owned/operated a residential construction business that I welded up everything I needed with that thunderbolt.  6011, 6013, and 7018, were the three goto rods and I saved alot of money fixing dump bodies, trailers, scafolding and other equipment I had.  It also allowed me to do rails and steps as well.  I can tell you that with practice you can make ac work for you.  i also welded up a bunch of farm and ranch implements and fences.
Reply:AC/DC Buzz boxes are probably the most used units out thereAlmost every farm-ranch-home shop has one for repair work because of there versatility and ease of use and low maintenance cost and purchase priceAnd a verity of rods are available for all types of welding at a low costBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11AC/DC Buzz boxes are probably the most used units out thereAlmost every farm-ranch-home shop has one for repair work
Reply:And that difference would be ???They are very common and used more than any other weldersNot everybody has a portable welder for doing repair workBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11And that difference would be ???They are very common and used more than any other weldersNot everybody has a portable welder for doing repair work
Reply:Originally Posted by k45You don't understand the obvious difference between something being common but rarely used?Sure, I'll agree that many farms have them, but probably average using them once or twice a year.  Compare that to weld shops that use MIG units every day, for several hours each day?   Or commercial production facilities that use MIG or TIG every day, all day long?   I would expect that MIG is the most commonly USED and that AC stick welders and O/A setups are the most common dust collectors.Nothing wrong with that, it just speaks to that idea that those who use a machine for hours every day are more likely to buy something more expensive than a low cost AC stick welder.Ken
Reply:Il probably get yelled at, but here it goes anyway....Would it be safe to maybe assume that for farms, a stick machine is the more common type of welder in use for "occassional" repair?  Yet for the professional weld shop, mig has replaced the stick machines as the most commonly used piece of equipment for "daily"  projects? "Hey I didn't come to look and learn, I came to turn and burn.... If I can't light up, I'm gonna light out!"-JodyIdealarc 250 "Fatman"MM 252MM 211 "Little boy" Victor Torches
Reply:Originally Posted by Scott YoungYou haven't been on a farm much have ya?
Reply:I think it's pretty silly to try to compare what is most common in an automated production shop, e.g. an auto factory with its robotic equipment, or even a full time large welding shop, with what is used as maintenance equipment in small auto repair places, in home shops or on farms. Stick welding is the most versatile of the electrical systems; I'm not sure if it or OA would be the Number 1 of all methods. Another couple tasks that stick welders can do are hard facing, cutting and gouging, and heat treating. Almost forgot...cooking hot dogs better than MIG and with less prior modification or afterward cleanup needed if done with TIG!
Reply:A buzz box and 7018AC rods make for some damn good welds. Plus they're built like tanks, and are so simple to fix, a caveman could do it. Pros: Tough, Easy to use, Capable of thick welds, easy to fix, cheap.cons: Hard to weld thin metal, heavy, not very portable, slow process.Just go for it, you won 't be disappointed.  A Lincoln ac-225 runs $250 new. For something like $400 they sell an AC/DC model, but it's not as popular.-AlexSears/Craftsman 230A Buzzy BoxSears/Craftsman 180A Buzzy BoxChicago Electric 80A InverterALL STICK...ALL THE TIME!I spent a lot of time with the square peg and round hole.
Reply:Originally Posted by k45I live on a farm.
Reply:Originally Posted by k45You don't understand the obvious difference between something being common but rarely used?Sure, I'll agree that many farms have them, but probably average using them once or twice a year.  Compare that to weld shops that use MIG units every day, for several hours each day?   Or commercial production facilities that use MIG or TIG every day, all day long?   I would expect that MIG is the most commonly USED and that AC stick welders and O/A setups are the most common dust collectors.Nothing wrong with that, it just speaks to that idea that those who use a machine for hours every day are more likely to buy something more expensive than a low cost AC stick welder.Ken
Reply:In my younger years small migs were not available like they are now and i don't see them as having the versatility that is needed for general repair work When most of the welding i was doing consisted of  broken tractor hitches/implements and off road trailers and trucks were the material is going to be 1/4" to 1" thick a 110 mig/fcaw is to small to the job rightAnd the next thing i might get to weld maybe cast iron or ss or doing a hard facing job and back to mild steelThe only people who had 220 mig/fcaw machines were shops that did production work mostlyAnd a tig on the farm ha ha the only people who had tig machines were machine shops and specialty shops that charged high rates for there services back then....Maybe on your farm you might have a big enough mig/fcaw machine but there are those who don't And a lot of them didn't have a portable welder either and that's how i made money because i had an old 180 amp hand crank Lincoln  welder and i could to work in the field on a broken machine that could not be moved until fixedAnd i really hate to tell you this but stick is still the king when it comes to versatilityThis is based on my 40 + years of experience doing repair welding  Maybe i'm wrong but i doubt itBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:when you gotta get in the honey spreader to patch a pissrusted gusset, its nice to use tig because that pointy thing in the torch is good for scraping off dried cowturds to expose the metal...just kidding, do they make 6011 in a tig rod?
Reply:I have to say I like welding with my Lincoln 225 but it's not as fast as my wire welders
Reply:For a LONG time AC stick welding was a big deal because the only way to get DC was a motor-generator welder (more expensive than a transformer) or an engine drive.You can still find some LARGE, serious AC industrial transformer machines for sale now and then. Many are single phase so be alert for that.Just grab an old Thunderbolt or Lincoln buzzbox and have at it.  The most critical part of a welding system is the "nut holding the stinger".
Reply:Originally Posted by farmallYou can still find some LARGE, serious AC industrial transformer machines for sale now and then. Many are single phase so be alert for that.Just grab an old Thunderbolt or Lincoln buzzbox and have at it.has that miller been restored? or just taken care of?
Reply:Originally Posted by BradTNGet an older Blue or Red machine with copper windings and it will probably outlive it's owner. 1970 AC 225  and 1965 Md300s AC/DC.
Reply:I looks to be.  It has the right face plate from what I can gather looking at old ac225s.  I am not sure when the plate came out with the rod/amp chart, but this is one appears on the oldest looking machines I have seen.  now the oldest looking could well be the most abused
Reply:Look for for the Tombstone 250 AC/DC  Hobart and Miller had them too !!!  Weld any thing Gouge Tig and sold on cragslist and Ebay all the time , lots of shops use them every day . At Harris we have been fabricating 108 years and had over 100 AC 500 amp transformers at one time 1/4 and 7/32 Jetrod will outproduce .045  mig all day long and in New York State DOT you will not Mig or Flux core .  John
Reply:Idealarcs, Dialarcs, and the big Miller AC/DC machines like the 330 rock.You can still find the big single phase AC transformer machines for sale cheap, sometimes at "buzzbox" prices. If you don't need all the power they'll run off a 50A breaker. My Miller 340 sticks nicely off one though I'll eventually upgrade.Pic is off an Ebay advert. If any are near enough to drive to instead of paying freight, I'd bag one like this at a similar price.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lincoln-Idea...item564a686090 Attached ImagesLast edited by farmall; 05-27-2012 at 12:09 PM.
Reply:Farmall  thats the best available in TM -300/400/500/650   AC and AC/DC  can do everything I have a TM 500  AC/DC  with a Multiweld 350 for CV and a air compressor on a frame will post pics . Looking for a TM-650 on in a auction in a few weeks . Also there is a AC 1000 subarc single phase powersource around and it can stickweld too .  John
Reply:Originally Posted by pipefitter72has that miller been restored? or just taken care of?
Reply:Originally Posted by SuperArcAre you positive that Lincoln AC-225 was made in 1970???
Reply:~AC has a smoother, more "buttery" arc. It has a certain amount of operator appeal. AC welds tend to be flatter and have better "wash-in" at the toes. ~AC machines are practically bulletproof. They have been known to outlive their owners. (they'll probably become hot commodities after the global nuclear holocaust.) ~Some kinds of rods don't work well with AC. By far the most common example is 6010. 7015 doesn't work well with AC either but that stuff is obsolete these days.~DC provides moderately better penetration. that's less of a concern when welding uphill, downhill, horizontal, or overhead.~You can weld thinner materials, by using certain rods (e.g. 6013) and switching to DC electrode negative. (Electrode positive is normally used with DC.)This is why I'm tempted to say, get a DC machine if you can afford an extra $100 or so. It gives you slightly more capabilities. On the other hand if you own a MIG welder or plan to buy one, the ability to weld thinner stuff is redundant, since MIG is much easier and faster on thin materials.
Reply:You should be able to pick an old AC buzz box up at auctions very reasonable. I just bought one for my son with approx 60ft leads for $80.00.  Welds perfect. Then a friend of mine decided to clean out his garage and I bought his old AC buzz box for $50.00.  The old machines are practically bullet proof. 6011s 6013 and 7018AC work great with our machines.  My Dads neighbor worked on the pipeline and built many nice projects over the years with an AC only welder.GeezerPower Mig 255C185 TIGBlue 175 MIGRanger 8 Kohler 20HP1974 5K Lincoln/Wisconsin Powered (Cherry)Victor/Harris O/AK 487 Spool Gun
Reply:There's a reason AC only stick welders are cheaper than DC only or ac/dc machines.Once you stick weld with DC, you wont go back to stick welding with AC.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Originally Posted by snoeproeThere's a reason AC only stick welders are cheaper than DC only or ac/dc machines.Once you stick weld with DC, you wont go back to stick welding with AC.
Reply:Arc blow..How often does that happen to you?It has happened to me but very rarely. Not enough to make me want an AC only stick welder.The industrial world stick welds on DC polarity.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:It sometimes happens with some types of steel notably the cheap Chinese stuffAnd you must get a good root weld and some time you gotta do what you gotta doSome times it's faster to go AC do the root  then play games with you fill passes on DCBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by geezer  The old machines are practically bullet proof. 6011s 6013 and 7018AC work great with our machines.
Reply:Mig-welding.co.uk talked a bit about AC buzz boxes. They mentioned one of the issues was that they tend not to have high power outputs and usually have very poor duty cycles, or a combination of a poor duty cycle and a very low maximum setting. From their website:AC air cooled weldersOften referred to as buzz boxes. A number of companies made reasonable quality air cooled AC welders in the past. The technology is now the reserve of DIY stores selling welders to people who don't know any better. They are the least usable of any type of arc welder.Pros:Cheap! Most large DIY stores will sell them for as little as £50.Cons:They tend to have a low OCV (open circuit voltage), so starting an arc is tricky.The low OCV results in an unstable arc, and this gets worse as the transformer heats up. While they will weld it is to a lower standard than any of the other types of ARC welder.Can't be used for special rods that require over 70V OCV (such as low hydrogen).Very poor duty cycle: Many of the cheap ones will weld for only 30 seconds before needing a rest for 10 minutes on the maximum amp setting.They are less efficient than inverter welders and will tend to require a dedicated AC air cooled weldersOften referred to as buzz boxes. A number of companies made reasonable quality air cooled AC welders in the past. The technology is now the reserve of DIY stores selling welders to people who don't know any better. They are the least usable of any type of arc welder.Pros:Cheap! Most large DIY stores will sell them for as little as £50.Cons:They tend to have a low OCV (open circuit voltage), so starting an arc is tricky.The low OCV results in an unstable arc, and this gets worse as the transformer heats up. While they will weld it is to a lower standard than any of the other types of ARC welder.Can't be used for special rods that require over 70V OCV (such as low hydrogen).Very poor duty cycle: Many of the cheap ones will weld for only 30 seconds before needing a rest for 10 minutes on the maximum amp setting.They are less efficient than inverter welders and will tend to require a dedicated supply to work on higher settings.Can't be used for TIG welding.Verdict:To a great extent these are a waste of money. They are the most difficult to use of any arc welder, so most DIY buyers will decide they don't like the process and give up. The duty cycles are annoyingly low. They are only really suitable for someone who wants an arc welder for very occasional use and doesn't want to spend money. to work on higher settings.Can't be used for TIG welding.Verdict:To a great extent these are a waste of money. They are the most difficult to use of any arc welder, so most DIY buyers will decide they don't like the process and give up. The duty cycles are annoyingly low. They are only really suitable for someone who wants an arc welder for very occasional use and doesn't want to spend money.Always assume every project you take on will take twice as long and cost three times as much as you estimate.
Reply:The ones they are referring to, are the ones you can get for less than $100 dollars,in the states.Any Lincoln,Miller or Hobart for less than $500 has better specs,and a used one for $50 would outlive almost anyone.If I was going to have to pick just one type of welder,to do all of my welding,it would be a buzzbox with an assortment of rods.
Reply:Originally Posted by BlueweldersThe ones they are referring to, are the ones you can get for less than $100 dollars,in the states.Any Lincoln,Miller or Hobart for less than $500 has better specs,and a used one for $50 would outlive almost anyone.If I was going to have to pick just one type of welder,to do all of my welding,it would be a buzzbox with an assortment of rods.
Reply:[QUOTE=Discoman;1217121]Mig-welding.co.uk talked a bit about AC buzz boxes. Can't be used for TIG welding.    Really??   I have a miller hi freq box on my Hobart ac/dc "buzzbox" that makes it a basic,but functional tig.  Longevity 160sx Lincoln 140 miglincoln magnum spoolgunVictor torch and regulators
Reply:The migwelding.uk site is good, but Eurocentric and they don't have near the welding market the US does. The site is geared toward tiny consumer junk welding machines, and that's not an insult. I've found it quite interesting and there are some knowledgeable folks there.The standard Lincolns/Millers/Hobarts are built to do useful work which is why so many thousands have sold over many decades.http://www.lincolnelectric.com/LEExt...l.aspx?id=2486
Reply:The people who try to weld at home in England, have to deal with powering a welder off of 220v at 16amps.A thankless task at best.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmallThe migwelding.uk site is good, but Eurocentric and they don't have near the welding market the US does. The site is geared toward tiny consumer junk welding machines, and that's not an insult. I've found it quite interesting and there are some knowledgeable folks there.The standard Lincolns/Millers/Hobarts are built to do useful work which is why so many thousands have sold over many decades.http://www.lincolnelectric.com/LEExt...l.aspx?id=2486