Help needed - welding steel plate to a pair of pliers

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G'day Folks,I've been trying to weld some 2mm thick steel plate to one side of the mouth of a pair of pliers.The pliers are probably drop forged - they are a cheap pair (even though they claim to be of "German Standard")The plate is cold rolled steel (more I can not say)I'm using a modern transistor MMA amplifier and 6013 1.6mm rods.I've found that the arc jumps in preference to one metal or the other but to get them both to fuse together has proved to be a right royal pain in the arse.I've made some truly hideous welds trying to get the two parts to stick together and I've just about managed it...If I want to do this again - what should I be doing rather then welding on one metal; welding on the other metal; and then welding between the two!
Reply:Have you considered making a "root" with OA then cap with an electric process?Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:Sounds like your Arc wander is coming from not using enough current, or you have a bad ground.
Reply:Thank you very much for the quick replies - I'll try bumping up the amps and see how I get on next time.In fact I might just grind off what I've done so far and see if it makes any difference - this seems like a good learning moment.
Reply:are they magnetic?
Reply:1.6 mm = 1/16 inchThat's a pretty skinny stick electrode!Combine some low amperage (because of the skinny electrode) along with possibly some low OCV (some of the 'small' rod/stick machines are a bit lacking in the OCV) and cleaning and fit-up and ensuring a good 'ground' connection to both sides of the work (where the good fit-up and cleaning and some clamping really come into play) and things can be a bit tricky/fussy.And the 'plate' you are using (adding some extra/custom 'jaws' to the clamps/pliers?) is just 2mm thick.  Which is just 5/64 or 0.078 thick.  Which is not really "plate" but just some sheetmetal.  14 gauge sheetmetal actually.If the clamp/pliers jaws are thicker than that (probably), I'd clean things well, clamp the 2mm (14 guage) pieces well to the jaws (clean well and especially grind away any sort of 'coating' on the jaws) and then do the 'usual' thick-to-thin welding technique of putting the arc and the puddle on the thicker piece and 'washing' the puddle to the thinner piece.By the way, just why are you (trying) to weld some pieces of sheetmetal to some clamp/plier jaws anyway? If the jaws are a bit worn out, I'd just go and do a little build-up weld directly onto the jaws themselves.Of course all of this presumes that the clamp/pliers are actually made of steel.Hmmm, thinking about it, most of my clamps/pliers are usually made of some sort of heat-treated alloy-type steel.  Which doesn't really explain the arc jumping around for you, but does influence about welding such steel a bit.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by Farmerboyare they magnetic?
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRise1.6 mm = 1/16 inchThat's a pretty skinny stick electrode!Combine some low amperage (because of the skinny electrode) along with possibly some low OCV (some of the 'small' rod/stick machines are a bit lacking in the OCV) and cleaning and fit-up and ensuring a good 'ground' connection to both sides of the work (where the good fit-up and cleaning and some clamping really come into play) and things can be a bit tricky/fussy.And the 'plate' you are using (adding some extra/custom 'jaws' to the clamps/pliers?) is just 2mm thick.  Which is just 5/64 or 0.078 thick.  Which is not really "plate" but just some sheetmetal.  14 gauge sheetmetal actually.If the clamp/pliers jaws are thicker than that (probably), I'd clean things well, clamp the 2mm (14 guage) pieces well to the jaws (clean well and especially grind away any sort of 'coating' on the jaws) and then do the 'usual' thick-to-thin welding technique of putting the arc and the puddle on the thicker piece and 'washing' the puddle to the thinner piece.By the way, just why are you (trying) to weld some pieces of sheetmetal to some clamp/plier jaws anyway? If the jaws are a bit worn out, I'd just go and do a little build-up weld directly onto the jaws themselves.Of course all of this presumes that the clamp/pliers are actually made of steel.Hmmm, thinking about it, most of my clamps/pliers are usually made of some sort of heat-treated alloy-type steel.  Which doesn't really explain the arc jumping around for you, but does influence about welding such steel a bit.
Reply:Army,As you've seen, pretty welds are hard to achieve with stick when dealing with different metal thicknesses, etc.Not saying you won't "get there", but may be easier to find a buddy with tig capability and have him tack it up for you.  One of the big advantages of the tig in this case is the heat control.  You can focus the heat on the thicker part and then sort of "wash" your filler over to the sheet (plate if you will).There are a lot of things stick welding is great at, but this isn't one of them.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Like USMCRUZ said about ground. Place ground clamp directly on pliers or plate. This will help. Start arc rod on piece that HAS GROUND CLAMP .
Reply:How about brazing? Good strength, shouldn't be a problem finding brazing rods that sticks to both pieces...
Reply:Braze or O/A welding unless you have a tigWhat your getting is arc blow the cure is AC current most likely if you must stick weld itBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by ArmyThe reason for this exercise is to try and build a special tool for crimping axle cans on an old Mercedes. It is just an idea I have that might work out.
Reply:Thanks for all the replies folks. If I had an oxy kit or a brazing kit I would have given it a go with that. As it is I'm stuck with the MMA DC inverter for the moment. I could get some argon as the amplifier was sold as a TIG machine......but this is part making it stick (which I have done) to see if the special tool idea I have will work but mainly learning a little bit more about arc welding to see how far I can go with it / what I can do with it instead of just joining bits of 1mm sheet together. (Hence the 1.6mm rods you see?)On this forum I'm someone who asks questions. I'm not able at this time to help with the answers!
Reply:Originally Posted by BradTNI've worked on the axles for the 123 series cars before, so I can relate to what you're trying to do. The official tool to crimp the cans is very expensive. Have you read some of the threads about axle rebuilding/boot replacement on the peach parts Mercedes shop forum ?http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/ Lot's of info on there about this subject. I remember someone on there using a body hammer and dolly to start the crimp and a pliers to finish... or vise versa.I often fabricate my own tools also, and sometimes they work. I hope yours works out for ya. Old Mercedes' are great cars !
Reply:Originally Posted by ArmyIf you don't visit peachparts that often you should come back and see us some time (I use the same user name there too) - "!
Reply:Originally Posted by BradTNMy bad, I remember your user name now. I hope you will post pic's of your tool/axle project.
Reply:To weld mild steel to tool steel you need to preheat the tool steel to red hot, then immediately start welding.  This will solve your fusion issues.You may, or may not get a good weld, you usually do, but you can get issues of brittleness.  It's a crap shoot."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Army,have you talked to your LWS about your problem?  what about using an electrode for joining dissimilar metals, maybe one specified for tool steel, or maybe just a high nickel rod?I know you wouldn't want to buy a whole box of special electrode, but the better welding supply stores sell sticks by the pound too.Hey, and post some pics of your current attempts and machine specs too if you don't mind.Last edited by dubl_t; 06-02-2012 at 01:15 PM.Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:He may be limited to DC current with what sounds like an inverter power source. So the AC current idea, while a good one, may not be an option. Re-read the thread, indeed, no AC. Last edited by tanglediver; 06-02-2012 at 02:02 PM.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:You wouldn't need an OA set up to braze those little parts.  I think you can get hot enough with those little combo / hand units.  If the plier jaw metal is heat treated you could anneal it and get after it with a flat file.  (not sure you could get a grinding wheel on it).  Then braze it.  You'd be done long before you went to the LWS and got differnt rods or borrowed a tig.
Reply:Thanks for the additional help everyone.I've found that with a 2.5mm rod and more power I've had a totally different experience!The welds I've managed to make aren't great - they're not pretty - but this time I'm not getting slag stuck in the weld any more......I'll not be posting any pictures of the welds - I'm a bit embarrassed they don't look pretty. I'm going to grind them smooth to hide the horrors and paint it quick!On this forum I'm someone who asks questions. I'm not able at this time to help with the answers!