Planning a shop build

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I plan on building a shop to replace my old one that I recently sold with some property. I'm currently still using it paying only 200 a month which is a good deal but the shop is not big enough and it's also on a hill which makes it so aggravating working on equipment outside. As it's only 30x50 and it's full of stuff that I've accumulated over the last few years.(8x16 table,small fork lift,steel cart,toolbox,drill press,iron worker and so on. I mostly work on logging equipment and just need more space with a roof.I have a 40x90 steel(kit)frame and would like some ideas and also hear of some mistakes some might have made or things you would do different.My plan is to start sometime around April with 40x60 enclosed and 40x40 open shed on the end. Then I'll probably add a lean-to on the side of the enclosed part around 40 long x20 wide. This will be for an office and maybe a portion of it opened to the shop to roll carts and park the lift in leaving the main floor open.Under the open end of the building I'll have two bays for log trailers or whatever that can be parked side by side and be out of the rain/sun.I was also thinking of making a basement of some sort, nothing fancy but just a place to have things that are stored for a rainy day. I'm a 4th generation welder and one day I'll be accumulating all my dad and grandfathers tools and junk trust me it's a ton of stuff.I would like info on building a basement as not many people around here ( South Carolina low country)have one.I'm planning on keeping this post updated as I go along with this project,prices and accomplishments.ThanksMiller trailblazer301gLincoln sa200Miller251Miller spectrum 625Victor oxy-acc2002 Chevy duramax 3500 dually 4x4
Reply:I've been involved with 4 different shop buildings over the last 43years and it seems like I always wished I had done something different along the way. It's a great Idea getting opinions and information from everyone. I might suggest tiedowns in the floor that are recessed for chaining or welding to  for pulling or straightening. I have found they are not worth putting in until you really have that special use for them.  One shop I built didn't have enough head room to get a small crane truck in to use the crane
Reply:One other thing I meant to say is I would like to build one more shop before I get too old to do anything.  I'm looking forward to all the response I hope you get so I can learn what everyone's doing. Good luck
Reply:Originally Posted by richeyI've been involved with 4 different shop buildings over the last 43years and it seems like I always wished I had done something different along the way. It's a great Idea getting opinions and information from everyone. I might suggest tiedowns in the floor that are recessed for chaining or welding to  for pulling or straightening. I have found they are not worth putting in until you really have that special use for them.  One shop I built didn't have enough head room to get a small crane truck in to use the crane
Reply:Originally Posted by BlackbeardI would like info on building a basement as not many people around here ( South Carolina low country)have one.I'm planning on keeping this post updated as I go along with this project,prices and accomplishments.Thanks
Reply:Yes, tie-downs are a must. I have a piece of 1/2x2 FB with mud hooks welded every six inches running down the center of my current shop and have used it many times. I am going to do it again except this time with wider FB like maybe 3/4 x 6 both inside and in the outside bays.As far as the basement, I'm not sure about it. It's just an idea. Probably not worth the extra cost. Maybe I'll make the lean- to a little bigger.As for the height the eaves will be at about 17 feet so head room will not be an issue I hope.Miller trailblazer301gLincoln sa200Miller251Miller spectrum 625Victor oxy-acc2002 Chevy duramax 3500 dually 4x4
Reply:I would put in these chain pockets like other stated. http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/cham...0-p-11538.aspx                         You could even run rebar for a ground from welding machine location to the chain pocket. That will save some cable going all over the place. Just use a double ground clamp. Might not be a bad idea for some weatherproof boxers with outlets . Your still gonna think of something after it is poured.
Reply:What questions do you have about basements? I've dug and poured quite a few over the years.One thing, remember you won't want a basement under any shop area where you want to have heavy tooling or drive on stuff like a forklift unless it's very heavily constructed. Think parking garage. I've seen it done, but it wasn't cheap, and the guy who did it was a mechanical contractor who used precast decking like what is used in parking structures so he could use a forklift over the lower level.Given a choice, I'd go poured in place concrete walls over block, even block that is grouted solid. Block tends to be porous and is an invitation to water issues. Poured concrete can still crack and cause water issues, but tends to be better as far as moisture is concerned generally.  If you do think you may have moister issues, don't skimp on water proofing. I see a lot of homes where the basics get skipped because no one will even know that they got left out. That means corrugated drain pipe and stone at the base of the wall, a good water proofing barrier ( not tar or "damp proofing") and drain tile on the wall to route water to the drain below. Also think about how to get rid of that water than is collected. Good soil compaction is also key and gets skipped many times.Poured concrete can be  DIY. Steel ply forms are not difficult to learn to set and strip, and can be rented by the month. They also sell a wide variety of Styrofoam type concrete forms that you leave in place after pouring. These have the advantage of added insulation as well as holding the crete. Down side is the soft styrofoam doesn't withstand a lot of abuse when backfilling with rocky ground, so care needs to be taken to protect the water proofing membrane more than with plain crete. I've used both types. Typically we used the steel ply forms on big jobs, and I've used 3 or 4 different styro systems over the years, usually on smaller additions.While it's probably not super cold where you are, you might give some thought to radiant floor heat. They can lay in the tubing when they pour the floor. Down side is you have to be careful if you want to drill in anchors later. If you go this way, take plenty of picts and take some time to do a quick drawing of the tubing layout with measurements. Most guys use 6x6 wire to tie off the tube, so if you know from where the tube starts, it's pretty easy to get a rough idea of where tubes are with picts later. If you know exactly where you need to put in anchors they can leave the tube out of those areas.Another ting that I see frequently is poor soil compaction under concrete floors. If they do any digging, make sure they compact well so the sub base doesn't settle and cause the floor to want to crack. I prefer to saw cut control joints in a floor vs troweling them. A: you get a flatter floor doing this. B: it's less labor intensive, C: I can lay them out straight exactly where I want them to be, D: the floor will crack in those spots like you want them to. Rule of thumb is that you  want the 'weak" area to be 1/4 to 1/3 the depth of the slab to force it to crack where you want to to. Most troweled joints are at best 1/2" deep, way to shallow to force a crack to form. we'd typically cut in 100 sf sections roughly. Typically nothing bigger than 15' in any direction. This won't guarantee the floor won't crack some place where you don't want it to, but it works most of the time.We also typically pour floors 6" thick in shop areas, especially if they will see heavy trucks or lifts. Bar or wire is optional. If used it's used on 2" chairs. I'd use it if the soils are soft or questionable, but an extra 2" of  crete is often as effective as bar on 12" centers. It comes down to what is cheaper.If you have any questions feel free to ask and I'll be glad to try and help..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by BD1I would put in these chain pockets like other stated. http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/cham...0-p-11538.aspx                         You could even run rebar for a ground from welding machine location to the chain pocket. That will save some cable going all over the place. Just use a double ground clamp. Might not be a bad idea for some weatherproof boxers with outlets . Your still gonna think of something after it is poured.
Reply:DSW - big capital YES on heated floors!Wish I had some tubing in mine. You can be dang sure my next shop will - eventually I'm gonna get old and want warm feet Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWWhat questions do you have about basements? I've dug and poured quite a few over the years.One thing, remember you won't want a basement under any shop area where you want to have heavy tooling or drive on stuff like a forklift unless it's very heavily constructed. Think parking garage. I've seen it done, but it wasn't cheap, and the guy who did it was a mechanical contractor who used precast decking like what is used in parking structures so he could use a forklift over the lower level.Given a choice, I'd go poured in place concrete walls over block, even block that is grouted solid. Block tends to be porous and is an invitation to water issues. Poured concrete can still crack and cause water issues, but tends to be better as far as moisture is concerned generally.  If you do think you may have moister issues, don't skimp on water proofing. I see a lot of homes where the basics get skipped because no one will even know that they got left out. That means corrugated drain pipe and stone at the base of the wall, a good water proofing barrier ( not tar or "damp proofing") and drain tile on the wall to route water to the drain below. Also think about how to get rid of that water than is collected. Good soil compaction is also key and gets skipped many times.Poured concrete can be  DIY. Steel ply forms are not difficult to learn to set and strip, and can be rented by the month. They also sell a wide variety of Styrofoam type concrete forms that you leave in place after pouring. These have the advantage of added insulation as well as holding the crete. Down side is the soft styrofoam doesn't withstand a lot of abuse when backfilling with rocky ground, so care needs to be taken to protect the water proofing membrane more than with plain crete. I've used both types. Typically we used the steel ply forms on big jobs, and I've used 3 or 4 different styro systems over the years, usually on smaller additions.While it's probably not super cold where you are, you might give some thought to radiant floor heat. They can lay in the tubing when they pour the floor. Down side is you have to be careful if you want to drill in anchors later. If you go this way, take plenty of picts and take some time to do a quick drawing of the tubing layout with measurements. Most guys use 6x6 wire to tie off the tube, so if you know from where the tube starts, it's pretty easy to get a rough idea of where tubes are with picts later. If you know exactly where you need to put in anchors they can leave the tube out of those areas.Another ting that I see frequently is poor soil compaction under concrete floors. If they do any digging, make sure they compact well so the sub base doesn't settle and cause the floor to want to crack. I prefer to saw cut control joints in a floor vs troweling them. A: you get a flatter floor doing this. B: it's less labor intensive, C: I can lay them out straight exactly where I want them to be, D: the floor will crack in those spots like you want them to. Rule of thumb is that you  want the 'weak" area to be 1/4 to 1/3 the depth of the slab to force it to crack where you want to to. Most troweled joints are at best 1/2" deep, way to shallow to force a crack to form. we'd typically cut in 100 sf sections roughly. Typically nothing bigger than 15' in any direction. This won't guarantee the floor won't crack some place where you don't want it to, but it works most of the time.We also typically pour floors 6" thick in shop areas, especially if they will see heavy trucks or lifts. Bar or wire is optional. If used it's used on 2" chairs. I'd use it if the soils are soft or questionable, but an extra 2" of  crete is often as effective as bar on 12" centers. It comes down to what is cheaper.If you have any questions feel free to ask and I'll be glad to try and help.
Reply:Not to cheat DSW out of any work, but I'd pass on a basement.IMHO, the typical shop/industrial  basement is damp, dark, inaccessible, clustered up rat's nest.The same (less really) money will buy more and better room at a second level or at ground level; even if it has to be a lean-to or separate out-building. Okay, there may be an exception in Manhattan.I'm voting for height. If the code allows 30', I'd say go no less than 31' or so.Last edited by denrep; 12-23-2013 at 11:32 PM.
Reply:30' ! Wow you're joking right? I was thinking I may just pour the enclosed section 40x60 and then pour pillars for the open section save on the cost. I can always pour the rest later. Hmmm, wonder if I'll have to pour a footing connecting the pillars. I need to check on some things.Miller trailblazer301gLincoln sa200Miller251Miller spectrum 625Victor oxy-acc2002 Chevy duramax 3500 dually 4x4
Reply:Not joking about height.  You indicated a desire for lots of storage - up's the cheapest way  to go.The floor and roof cost the same no matter what.Once the shell is up, in the future you're gonna stumble into a deal on the material needed  to add a mezanine, decks, second level, shelves/racks, whatever.EDIT - Just reread and noticed that you have the kit already. That  seems like a decent height. Last edited by denrep; 12-23-2013 at 11:52 PM.
Reply:I have to agree on going up vs a basement, especially with a forklift available. If I ever get to do my own shop, I'd do a 2 story section in at least 1/2 the shop and I'd want at least 20' clear to do so if not more. I'd love to have a mezzanine for storage, open to the main shop, preferably to load with the lift. My current shop has one section that is two story, even if they are "short" ( 6'6" down stairs and not much higher upstairs) in height.  I'd probably do steel beams with steel deck and a poured floor in the mezzanine area. Something stout enough I could roll carts on or a pallet jack if need be.Over all height in my place is a bit under 14' under the beams and it's tight with the Mack inside. Between the beams you can raise the body maybe a few more feet, but not much.Denrep I won't argue one bit about how dark and dingy basements can be. Only good solution to that is a good set of double Bilco doors for exterior access, and even that isn't great. With a pond near by I'd be hesitant unless you are up hill a decent ways. Newer homes often "solve" this issue by piling the dirt from the basement around the house. That solves a few issues. One you don't need to dig down as deep and have to dispose of as much material. Two, with the basement only say 3 to 4 feet below original grade you avoid water issues and make walk out basements easier. Three, this lets them charge more and spend less. Unfortunately unless you are on a hill side, this won't work well for a shop.A few things to remember about steel in concrete. One the steel has to be IN the concrete to do any good. I see lots of guys just leave it lay on the stone. #2 the closer to the bottom of the slab it is while still in the crete, the better it will work. However concrete is porous and steel will rust if it's closer than 2" to the bottom. The closer steel gets to the middle of the slab, the less use it is. In the middle it's almost useless as the concrete gets no strength from steel there at all. When guys randomly pull wire up in a slab with a rake, all it will gain you is to keep the broken pieces together after it cracks. Best way to get the wire/steel where you want it is on "chairs". With wire, we'd either wire the chairs to the mats, or wire the sheets to bars on small pieces of chair.One other good option is to have them add fiber to the crete. This can be as effective or even more effective than wire as far as strength goes. We wouldn't use wire in slabs under 4" unless it was just to hold the tube in place for radiant heat, but we'd always use fiber. They make fiber from thinner than hair, to stuff that looks like thin rope for structural use. We put fiber in all out crete except footings or stuff for grout..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Are there any tax or building code issues regarding basements?Around me, they tax everything.  There's a loophole for building a "bomb shelter".  Some antiquated law that never came off the books.  I can build a 20' x 20' underground bunker with no taxation.  In upstate NY, a pole barn is free in some counties unless you put a concrete floor.  Add a basement and it's living space. You may wanna ask at your building department if it's not gonna draw any attention to you.TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:@ Blackbeard -  You currently have a 40ft x 90ft kit.  Type?  Manufacturer?  Will you be the GC?  Are you hiring an A/E firm for the design, build, erection?  You sound like you got it covered, but a good Nucor reference on pre-engineered buildings (PEB) is http://www.nucorbuildingsystems.com/...neeringmanual/Recommend approaching your project by looking at all the applicable CSI divisions.  One through 16.  Write down every feature you want inside and outside your shop.  This technique will unearth construction elements that you may have overlooked.  Lots of good ideas/options presented above.   Your "kit" manufacturer's product should conform to the Metal Building Manufacturers Association (MBMA) standards. And, as mentioned, your local county/state codes will provide a wealth of information.Understand your question was predicated on the need for a basement.  A few top-level recommendations:  build up, not down; forego a basement, but install a sub-grade access pit a la an automotive service center; place 6" thick 4000psi concrete with fiber/steel reinforcing; tie-down points ++; include an overhead gantry/crane for lifting over all floor space;  maximize size and placement of all personnel/equipment doors; configure interior/exterior with ample lighting.  Build for the future, visit other local shops for ideas, and query local contractors who make a living installing PEBs.Enjoy the journey "Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepNot joking about height.  You indicated a desire for lots of storage - up's the cheapest way  to go.The floor and roof cost the same no matter what.Once the shell is up, in the future you're gonna stumble into a deal on the material needed  to add a mezanine, decks, second level, shelves/racks, whatever.EDIT - Just reread and noticed that you have the kit already. That  seems like a decent height.
Reply:Here's some pics of the build of my current shop. If you look at the beams you'll see the holes where the lights were meant to go if they had been used to build the container chassis. You can also tell I laid all of them out and built them on the concrete one on top of the other.I put the main door on the other end because of the sun and privacy.Miller trailblazer301gLincoln sa200Miller251Miller spectrum 625Victor oxy-acc2002 Chevy duramax 3500 dually 4x4
Reply:In my last shop I built, and placed six of these in the middle 14' x 40' bay. With a piece of C-channel at each end. Welded Nelson studs to everything. In well over 20-years never used them once! The shop I have now, I didn't put anything in the floor. Twice in the last 12-years I've had to weld a pad eye to a plate with 4-holes in it, use a roto-hammer and red-heads because I needed an anchoring point in the shop floor.  Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:CEP, I made some I-beams for a logger i work for to go in the floor of his shop about 8 ' long with pockets on each end they look similar to what you have and he loved them. I helped him install them before he poured his slab. They work great. There's no way I'd build another shop without them. I also made him an extremely large a-frame hoist that he wanted. He was very happy with it. I'll try to find a pic of it.Miller trailblazer301gLincoln sa200Miller251Miller spectrum 625Victor oxy-acc2002 Chevy duramax 3500 dually 4x4
Reply:I have this one in my new shop, 24-feet span x 40-feet power travel. Handy as a pocket on a shirt.  Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:heres the aframe i built but i cant find the finished picMiller trailblazer301gLincoln sa200Miller251Miller spectrum 625Victor oxy-acc2002 Chevy duramax 3500 dually 4x4
Reply:Ok I know it's been a while since I started this thread but I came across a deal for some z purlin today. I can get 60 pieces of 9" purlin 26' long for 2400.00. If I bought new they would cost 5800.00. That's enough to do the roof of a 40'x120' shop. That's what I've decided to build. I've also decided I'm not going to do a basement. I went to the local building dept. and asked about footings. I plan on putting the frame up and covering the roof to have an open shed for now, I guess I'm trying to say I'm gonna build this thing in stages. Save a little cash, build a little more as I can. Anyway, to start off the guy says: oh so you have a kit already that's been torn down well we need engineered plans, soil samples, why such a large building, what will it be used for, bla bla bla.....So I proceeded to tell him I had no problems last time when I drew up the plans myself and built the shop myself and had no problems with the county making a big deal of it. So I guess times have changed here in the last few years.I want to jump on the deal with the z purlins but don't know how expensive it's going to be with getting engineered plans for this kit that I have. Anybody got any ideas? Keep in mind all I have is the beams and no purlins and have to make two more sets of beams and also add about 8' to the legs of what I have.Miller trailblazer301gLincoln sa200Miller251Miller spectrum 625Victor oxy-acc2002 Chevy duramax 3500 dually 4x4
Reply:Well I ordered a kit last week. 40 x 112 with 72' enclosed.Miller trailblazer301gLincoln sa200Miller251Miller spectrum 625Victor oxy-acc2002 Chevy duramax 3500 dually 4x4