ski boat rudder

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A customer sent this to me today.  Any chance of fixing it? I was thinking tig welding with utp/a34n filler rod.  I'm just worried about the thickness of the shaft.  Thats a lot to groove out and then build back up.thanks for any suggestions
Reply:I'm sure Sundown here can tell you how to repair that. My 1st thought is that the shaft may not be integral to the rudder itself, but a shaft either welded or pressed and pinned in a socket bored in the rudder. I'd have to see it myself to look at how it was done originally. SD probably knows since he does a lot of marine repairs..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by sstewartllcA customer sent this to me today.  Any chance of fixing it? I was thinking tig welding with utp/a34n filler rod.  I'm just worried about the thickness of the shaft.  thanks for any suggestions
Reply:Originally Posted by sstewartllcA customer sent this to me today.  Any chance of fixing it? I was thinking tig welding with utp/a34n filler rod.  I'm just worried about the thickness of the shaft.  Thats a lot to groove out and then build back up.thanks for any suggestions
Reply:The specific type of alloy of that shaft has everything to do with it's weldability or lack thereof.Blackbird
Reply:sstewartllcWith TIG, strike an arc on the center of the stub.  If it forms a puddle, it's a bronze, and should be weldable.If you get mushroom cloud, and it looks like the moon, it's brass, and your project is done.Even if it weldable, this is not a happy repair.  On critical repairs, never trade material cost for labor  -  Opus
Reply:I can't imagine the shaft being anything except stainless or maybe monel. I had a boat with a rudder like that (although mine was an offshore boat, not a ski boat) and the rudder shaft got bent and actually began to tear, and I had to get a whole new rudder/shaft assembly. On mine, the shaft was stainless and the rudder bronze.Good luck. If the shaft is bronze, I suspect you're going to need a monstrous amount of heat to weld ii, if it can be welded at all. Copper alloys like bronze suck up heat worse than aluminum. Do they make a Dynasty 7000? You might want to PM SundownIII, I suspect he's dealt with stuff like this.
Reply:Keith from Turn Wright Machine Works has a video on youtube showing a similar repair.[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPZ4FBeeKT4[/ame]
Reply:ss-llc   forhire's direction to TWMW video, is exactly how your fracture could be repaired;but the thickness of your rudder wall won't support this repair.TWMW is producing a total replacement.  Possibly due to widespread original design flaws.TWMW's replacement castings are designed with bosses, for swelled and pined shafting.Save your clients money on a repair, and search/discover for whom has solved you problem before you.  This may not be the only rudder in it clan that has failed, it may have lots of cousins.I charge the same hourly rate for solving problems, as I do for work on the shop floor.Occasionally, fixing the problem is not a repair, but a replacement.     Opus
Reply:Unless you're "very experienced" in welding silicon bronze, I wouldn't even attempt this repair.You are going to have very little luck welding the shaft back together.  Something I would not even consider personally.As depicted in the video, your best chance for repair would be having the rudder drilled (machined) and inserting a new shaft.Keep in mind here that if your repair fails, the owner is most likely going to lose the rudder.  Any idea how he broke the shaft and still didn't lose the rudder overboard?  Suspect he may have backed his boat (on the trailer), into an immovable object.Cheapest, quickest, most reliable fix is most likely for the owner to just order a new rudder assembly from the manufacturer.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Check with Henry Smith http://www.henrysmith.com/http://www.henrysmith.com/rudders.htm
Reply:Foxfire,Buck-Algonquin provides a high percentage of all the bronze hardware used in the marine industry.  Good people to deal with.The OP also needs to check the rudder support bearing for possible damage also.  That is a somewhat "unusual" failure, that most likely required significant impact.  Normally, a bronze shaft will bend before it breaks.I've never had any luck "welding" a bronze shaft (or Aquamet for that matter), so I don't do it.A while back I did have to repair a bronze rudder support housing, but that was only because a new one was not available.  Buck-Algonquin had indicated that they could manufacture a new housing if we sent them the old one to use as a form for a new mold.  The process would have taken about two months and the cost was about $1,800.  That would have meant that the boat owner would lose the use of his boat for nearly an entire boating season.  Therefore, I chose to repair/reinforce what we had.  That rudder support housing was not under nearly the load that the rudder post in this thread will be subjected to.Cast silicon bronze presents "challenges" that most tiggers would prefer to avoid.  In fact, before I started with the housing repair, I consulted with a buddy of mine who's a very experienced welder and runs his own large fab shop and his comment when I asked him "What do you know about silicon bronze?" was "I know enough to stay the heck away from it."Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireKeith from Turn Wright Machine Works has a video on youtube showing a similar repair.
Reply:Thanks for all the replys.  This site never fails to impress me with the amount of knowledge here.I'll let him know the options and see what he says.  I have a feeling that hes not going to like the price on any of them.  I might have to pick up a junk prop or rudder to practice on for next time.  There are a ton of ski boats in the area and I'm sure they're running into stuff relatively frequently.  Might be a good little nitch.  I've seen a lot of Henry Smiths work.  What those guys do for the price is great.  They props always look brand new.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIII In fact, before I started with the housing repair, I consulted with a buddy of mine who's a very experienced welder and runs his own large fab shop and his comment when I asked him "What do you know about silicon bronze?" was "I know enough to stay the heck away from it."
Reply:SundownIII,  IF one were to attempt a repair by replacing the shaft, due to the lack of cross section in the area, what would you say to boring out for an interference fit and cross drill the rudder to allow plug welding to the new shaft?MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Duane,IF the rudder assembly was not available from the manufacturer, that's precisely how I would approach the repair.From what I could see in the photos, the rudder assembly seemed to be of a pretty common configuration, and should be readily available.Rudders on a ski boat are a pretty critical item.  Loss of the rudder during a high speed turn could result in a serious accident.  Just not worth taking a chance on a half azz repair.Many of the rudder assemblies on your larger inboard boats use a SS shaft coupled with a bronze rudder.  It's worked well for years.Few years back we experienced severe rudder deterioration on some of the larger sportfish boats (not going to name the manufacturer) due to cavitation burns.  This was on boats in the 60'+ range, running nearly 50 knots and being pushed by twin 2000HP engines.  Actually had to bring in an underwater acoustics expert (guy worked with the nuclear sub program to reduce underwater noise) to help clean up the water flow (minor hull modification) over the rudders.  Really interesting what cavitation (air bubbles) can do to metal at high speeds.Based in the information provided, I'm reasonably sure this "failure" was not an "on the water" event.  More likely that the boat owner backed his rig into something that sheared the rudder off (on the trailer).  Expensive mistake, but good training for using a "ground guide" when backing your trailer.Believe me when I say that "simply welding the rudder post back together" will not work.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by sstewartllcThanks for all the replys.  This site never fails to impress me with the amount of knowledge here.I'll let him know the options and see what he says.  I have a feeling that hes not going to like the price on any of them.  I might have to pick up a junk prop or rudder to practice on for next time.  There are a ton of ski boats in the area and I'm sure they're running into stuff relatively frequently.  Might be a good little nitch.  I've seen a lot of Henry Smiths work.  What those guys do for the price is great.  They props always look brand new.
Reply:U might want to try a PM to propdoctor here on WW forum. If anyone has experience doing those I would guess he would be one of themTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250