"Fake" welder display frustration (why not real IPM & volts?)

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I started my wire welding journey on a Hobart 180, then got a MM Vintage (200) and now have a Maxtron 450.  Both the Hobart and the Millermatic have the dials displaying tap number (1-4 or 1-7) instead of volts and wire speed as a value from 1-100 instead of listing the IPM.  Now that I'm moving to the Maxtron (which displays in volts and ipm) I'm lost.  Why do they cripple our upgrade path by having the lower end models display made-up units?  The 1-4 on the tap could be dual labeled with the voltage it represents, so that when you upgrade to a "real" unit, you already know what's going on.I realize in the case of the Vintage that there is a high and low range, but the dial could easily have two different bands (think mph and kmh on your speedo).Ok, rant over.  Does anyone know where I could find that info so I can write it on myself?  The voltages of the taps on a HH180 and MM Vintage?  I know the IPM ranges from the manuals, can I assume that 1 is the lowest listed IPM and 100 is the highest, and that it's linear in between?This is a minor thing - but it seems so silly!
Reply:It's pretty easy actually - just hook your meter to the lugs under the cover and have someone read the volts while you weld.You'll likely find a pattern, like +2 volts each tap or +1.5 volts.The inches per minute you just pull the trigger for 6 seconds, measure how much came out, mult by 10.Test a few and see if it's linear - if it is you can just figure the rest of the them.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Do your own calibration. First check and write down the line (input) voltage for future comparisons. Set up to run some wire you typically use, with the wire tensioner set right. Then test actual wire speed at each number on the dial. Clip the wire even with the end of the contact tube, then squeeze the trigger on the gun and simultaneously start a stopwatch. Look at the watch, and release the gun trigger at exactly six seconds. Measure how much wire has spooled out. Multiply by ten, and that is actual inches per minute. Do this for each number on the wirespeed dial, make yourself a chart. Read up on the various ways to measure voltage (OCV, load, arc) and decide what way you want to measure this, again at each reference number on the voltage dial, and make a second chart. Miller's site should have a good description of voltage measurement. Laminate your two charts in plastic and keep them handy.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveIt's pretty easy actually - just hook your meter to the lugs under the cover and have someone read the volts while you weld.You'll likely find a pattern, like +2 volts each tap or +1.5 volts.The inches per minute you just pull the trigger for 6 seconds, measure how much came out, mult by 10.Test a few and see if it's linear - if it is you can just figure the rest of the them.
Reply:The voltage that a tap outputs is going to vary as you make changes to the wire speed dialESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Originally Posted by DanYou can't measure IPM on the Handler 180 that way. Due to the design of the internal electrical circuitry, the drive motor is going to feed wire at a lower rate once the welding circuit is under a load.
Reply:As with most of the smaller MIG units, it's motor drive is VS.  That is why when one of these machines experiences a weld output failure the drive motor typically stops functioning as well.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Interesting - along the lines of a vs suitcase feeder?It strikes me as odd that this whole thing is such a deep dark secret when it's the standard way to measure things on bigger units!  Maybe the manufacturers don't expect there to be much crossover between the users of the small machines and the big ones?  I.E. your typical 180a user will eventually upgrade no further than a 250a unit, so there's no need for a 180a user to be able to understand a 450a unit easily?  That seems like a bad assumption though - I have to believe lots of guys welding with a 450a unit on a line at work also have a 200a unit at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by JasonPAtkinsInteresting - along the lines of a vs suitcase feeder?It strikes me as odd that this whole thing is such a deep dark secret when it's the standard way to measure things on bigger units!  Maybe the manufacturers don't expect there to be much crossover between the users of the small machines and the big ones?  I.E. your typical 180a user will eventually upgrade no further than a 250a unit, so there's no need for a 180a user to be able to understand a 450a unit easily?  That seems like a bad assumption though - I have to believe lots of guys welding with a 450a unit on a line at work also have a 200a unit at home.
Reply:For the Mm vintage, I think the lowest voltage on the tag is 10, so that is tap 1 low. 2 volt increase per tap that  gets to to 20 for tap 6 low. Tap 1 high is the same as tap 6 low, so tap 6 high is 30 volts. I ahve measured wire speed enough to just know where it goes for the taps I generally use, but it seems to me that tap 5 low is 50% with a slightly less than 10% increase or decrease per tap. I measured voltage at each tap, then wrote it for both ranges, then I found it easier to just use the linear numbering that I gave you. I had the same issues when going to the XMT304.
Reply:Just a guess but I'll go with the idea that the bigger machines will likely find themselves used in cases that involve very specific weld procedure voltage/WFS parameters and therefore the reason for meters/readouts making it quicker and easier to set the machine.  This of course includes the presumption that the meters/readouts are properly calibrated.But I'm like Steve and set it based on past experience and fine tune from there.  I printed out and have a voltage chart on my MM200 but can't tell you the last time I looked at it.Perhaps I should start.  Might improve my skill. MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:I'm fine on all three machines, though generally for the Maxtron I have to use Miller's iphone app to get in the ballpark - since I have less experience with it.  I guess the point of the post is that, if the smaller units had been labeled for what they were really doing (v & ipm) I wouldn't need to be checking the app because I'd already know.  Like you guys, I get there eventually - just seems like it could be a little handier.  Anyway, I've spent more time complaining about it in this thread than the amount of time it's actually cost me in machine set up, so I guess I should quit complaining and go back to welding. Thanks guys!
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749The Maxtron has an advantage over other machines in that it has a ten turn potentiometer, so you can adjust within tenths of a volt. That's also a reason I like the digital Miller 50 feeders. Same ten turn pot in those too so you can adjust the wire speed to a very fine degree. Often, when I set up remote voltage options for feeders running off solid state machines, I use a ten turn pot to give added adjustment ability.Good luck with it.
Reply:That little Lincoln 180 dual that I bought measures IPM in 1-10..I cant even use my miller mig app with the freaking thing!Buy American, or don't whine when you end up on the bread line.
Reply:Buy a rebuilt feeder from Steve! Love mine. Make him make you a SS top for it too, ups the cool factor.
Reply:Hello Jason, Duane has given you the main reason that the "industrial" machines often times have the more specific readouts and voltage/amp information. Codes and other specifics often require that. Now back to your questions. Honestly, one of the easiest ways to get the machine "dialed in" is to get some scrap and work with the voltage/amperage settings(wirespeed) until you have it dialed in the way that you like it to run. Put a tag on the machine with your notes and refer to them when you are using one or the other. Eventually, if you use them enough, you won't even need to look at the tag and you'll simply turn the machine on and turn/flip a few dials and go to welding. There are so many variables that come into play when trying to get different welders to weld the same that you will go insane trying to pinpoint it simply by voltage and amperage(wirespeed). Throw a few variables into the mix like 3 phase/1 phase, low voltage/high voltage, inductance, machine type:CV, CC/voltage sensing, inverter, transformer/rectifier, etc.etc. There are so many things that affect how the arc acts/reacts. Good luck and best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:One thing to remember is smaller machines are usually built around a given price point. Setting them up to read a specific voltage and a fixed wire speed would increase their price, most likely taking them out of that price point range and putting them much closer to the larger industrial machines.Remember many of these smaller units pull feed power off the transformer taps. That means a wire feed setting of "6" on tap 2 isn't the same always as a wire speed setting of "6" on tap 5 lets say. Voltage also is some what "variable" even if the machine puts out constant voltage. Changes like stickout, wire size etc, can change the voltage on a given tap, so if you measure the voltage, it's only really good for that set up. Change the voltage, and that changes the wire speed even on the same tap to a small degree.  Bigger more expensive machines that's not true  as they are designed to be able to hit specific settings repeatably..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:My guess is that it costs more to put an actual voltage monitoring circuit and RPM tach in the machines and cuts into profits... so for the cheap units they go with the cheaper option.  wire speed,  run it for 15 sec and measure how much wire comes out then multiply by 4 or do 10 seconds by 6 etc you have exact IPM then,   I did that when I had my Migmaster 250 and the increase was not linear for each setting,Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Ok, if there are internal differences between a cheap machine and an industrial one such that you can't say tap 5 = 21v and feed setting 7 = 400 ipm, then I'll give them a pass.  The chart in the machine works fine, and yes, I understand to just give it a try.  Sometimes though, I feel like the give it a try method leads me to lay down a bead that's pretty but not penetrating as deeply as it could.  I have a feel for the settings on the two small units and I'm sure with time will develop a feel for the settings on the Maxtron as well.I wish I could afford one of Steve's feeders - unfortunately being from the same area, I think we're bidding against each other on some of these.   My whole Maxtron rig cost me $170 including the suitcase feeder.
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Nothing wrong with that price Jason I've pretty well ditched the auction scene. Most of my stuff comes from industry changeovers and upgrades. I prefer to buy cheap broken machines than expensive working ones and at auction, a lot of bidders cannot differentiate between the two. If I can't get a very reasonable assurance it works, I consider it a parts machine and spend accordingly. Some ppl think they have a gold mine sitting there and he prospect of spending an entire day at an auction, then paying their ridiculous fees, etc isn't that attractive anymore.My business plan focuses on small volume with fast turnover. Time is the most expensive of my non value added expenses, so for the most part unless I hear from a contact who knows I buy broken stuff or happen along on something, I'm not in the market for purchases much anymore. It takes an insane amount of time to play the game. You can get some great deals, but as soft as the market has been I don't like dropping what little cash and time I have into stock I can't immediately move. The last two loads of Maxtrons I picked up were practically free (not free, but very cheap). It was worth what I gave for all of it.Good luck on that stuff you PMed me about
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Yeah, that same guy might have been willing to pay $500 for it too. As you said, you never know. I don't have feeders I'm willing to part with cheap right now. Keep your eyes on CL. You're bound to find one. With feeders, I'll only move on them if they're real cheap. Ceiling on something real nice isn't a whole lot in the big picture so I generally don't buy them unless an exceptional deal comes along. I'm sitting on a lot of 50 series stock right now, but most of it is very serviceable and will build me several good machines if I get down to the nitty gritty.Sold off most of my 60 series stuff since I didn't have a whole lot of it and it was all really rough. A big downside with those units is that they're difficult to ship UPS. The bases are very wide, long and they're heavy. A 50 series (even the dual heads) will fit into a 15" X 15" X 30" box with ease. A 60 series requires a much larger box and because of their awkward size, you have to either cut a big box up or tape a custom one together.Here I got talking again
Reply:I just punch things in to get to the approximate range, after that i set things so that the puddle looks right.I don't think I ever end up exactly at the recommended settings.
Reply:Originally Posted by BlueweldersI just punch things in to get to the approximate range, after that i set things so that the puddle looks right.I don't think I ever end up exactly at the recommended settings.
Reply:Adjust on the fly would be nice.I have used so many crap welders with mystery rod that I wouldn't know what to do,if something was easy or worked the way it is supposed to.As long as I can see and hear I can somehow make it work, but I don't have to like it.