Calling CWIs... Unethical? illegal?

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Need some advice. Local welding shop wants me to fill out the inspection report via pictures his welders have taken (on towers).  The spec calls for inspections to be performed by a CWI.  I know the welders and the shop,  they have a solid reputation and the welders are top notch...  So,  I'm not sure if it's wrong,  it feels wrong.  On one hand I am technically looking at the welds,  on the other I'm not actually out there.  Is it wrong morally?  Legally? Or not wrong at all?
Reply:If it feels wrong it sure can't be right.
Reply:Not a CWI but my first question would be WHY does the customer want the inspection done via pictures in the first place?It's pretty much a given that pictures can speak a 1000 words but be deceiving just as easily.  I or anyone can (and have) select the best angle or best section of weld to photograph and not show the disaster a little farther down the bead or on the other side of the pipe/bracket/etc.Second question.  How much do you value your reputation as a CWI?  Put your name to a job based on pictures and it fails in service due to inferior welds would not look good in your portfolio IMO.If it feels wrong . . .MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:A better question is, what is your liability and defense if you approve and sign off on welds viewed only in pictures?  I can't see the courts and insurance companies approving of this method.BradFulcrum Saw & Tool
Reply:Go look them over don't matter who it is in person or not at all
Reply:I suppose the contractor would save money on travel.  I would think as long as visual inspection is the only thing performed photo or otherwise, there is no way to tell if the weld will fail,  it would need some UT or MPT at least.  The welders reputation and quality of work is why I agreed to do it,  I did a report but felt wrong after the fact.     The pictures attained shows some of the best welding I've ever seen,  the welder is top notch.  However I don't think I'll continue,  but just wanted to get some opinions.
Reply:Also the spec calls for at least 8% of the welds to be inspected.  The pictures shows a higher percentage for sure.
Reply:Its your back side if something goes wrong. As a CWI myself, I don't care who it is or what I've seen before. What if there was a second welder?  Did they show you 100% of one welder and not the other? There could be a total sh#t weld next to a good one. I've had to trek back into a screwed up spot for one arc strike and that was a for an inspector I'm extremely good friends with. I got sloppy and got called on it. What is not in the pictures?    Sorry if I seam harsh. There is a certain amount of integrity to uphold. As a welder I would call out others I work with for crap work. I do the same for inspection work.Long after the price is forgotten, the quality will remain.Both of my Poppy's 1954 Short Hoods -Third generation to weld with it and teaching a fourthSA 2## - Bought and sold more than I can remember or care to list, 8 in the shop right now
Reply:too much room for finagling with pics. maybe with live video or via smart phone. a contractor called me for a job and when i got there asked me to "cover" his welders with my license.i.u.o.e. # 15queens, ny and sunny fla
Reply:Originally Posted by Adam ArcIts your back side if something goes wrong. As a CWI myself, I don't care who it is or what I've seen before. What if there was a second welder?  Did they show you 100% of one welder and not the other? There could be a total sh#t weld next to a good one. I've had to trek back into a screwed up spot for one arc strike and that was a for an inspector I'm extremely good friends with. I got sloppy and got called on it. What is not in the pictures?    Sorry if I seam harsh. There is a certain amount of integrity to uphold. As a welder I would call out others I work with for crap work. I do the same for inspection work.
Reply:To be fair,  the pictures are not zoomed in,  they show most if not all or more of the work and sorrounding.
Reply:FIRST of all, what are you inspecting these welds against? A code, several codes, or company specific criteria? That's the first thing that has to be figured out.
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Not a CWI, not a professional welder.I am however, someone who has learned to trust his instincts and when my gut is saying no way, I'm very rarely wrong. I guess you gotta weigh your options and determine if its a risk worth taking. It certainly is a risk, if it weren't one, you wouldn't be asking this question.Your call. Hopefully what you did wasn't illegal. I dunno. I would find out tho.For me it's CYA #1.IMHO of course
Reply:What spec? Did you read it? The spec and levels of inspection should be listed on the drawing or contract. In the spec are the criteria for visual inspection. There are provisions in some of the specs for non CWI inspectors to do the inspection, and your customer has to get credentials from you like your weldor qualification, years experience, education and so forth. I am assuming this is just a visual, right?Then it is up to the final authority to accept the inspection report(his customer or architect and insurance company). So if I were you, see the welds in person, and you mark and take the photos for your own protection. And don't falsify a thing, as it is your ***. Again you could ask to see the procurement documents and get copies that lists the inspection levels, and make them buy you the current revision spec, and follow it. If you have no copy of D1.1 or studied it, good luck as it is a doozy. I am going through the same with a customer and have found an ex Rocketdyne quality engineer to approve my procedure weld samples. AWS D1.2 allows for that in lieu of a CWI. There are no CWI in my area familiar with fillet weld fracture bend test porosity count evaluation on alum. The only one that would even talk to me told me said it has to bend over to qualify which is BS. I figure he was too lazy to read the criteria and just wanted to view, rubber stamp, and sign my form, and get a quick payday. So I found an engineer instead. Perhaps your customer has studied the spec? You chose the 8%, not him.Last edited by shovelon; 07-05-2014 at 07:44 PM.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I'm a CWI to D1.1,  I can navigate it well.  The welds (as far as I can tell)  are nearly flawless,  as I said,  some of the best welding I've come across.  I would expect nothing less from these welders.  The spec just calls for a VT of 8% nothing else said.  The photos are very wide and cover much more than 8%, they are high definition and can be zoomed in a lot,  they looked good.  There were a few areas the welder had marked that he himself wanted to grind out and redo.  Judging by the photo,  he didn't have to  they looked fine.  I will be putting my eyes on it,  and if asked to do the next inspection I'll have a conversation with the engineer in charge of the project.  If he is fine with VT via HD photos then I'll do it,  and list that in the notes section.  As far as falsifying anything, I have never and will never cross that line....  There is Grey which I feel I may have walked that line,  and there is black!
Reply:You can look at pictures of welds, and maybe reliably tell if they are quality, but can you tell what object the welds are on?  My understanding is that you are to inspect specific welds on a specific tower.  How can you do that if you are not on site?  As a former Boeing inspector, I wouldn't touch it!
Reply:Originally Posted by RimariYou can look at pictures of welds, and maybe reliably tell if they are quality, but can you tell what object the welds are on?  My understanding is that you are to inspect specific welds on a specific tower.  How can you do that if you are not on site?  As a former Boeing inspector, I wouldn't touch it!
Reply:Originally Posted by No1upI'm a CWI to D1.1,  I can navigate it well.  The welds (as far as I can tell)  are nearly flawless,  as I said,  some of the best welding I've come across.  I would expect nothing less from these welders.  The spec just calls for a VT of 8% nothing else said.  The photos are very wide and cover much more than 8%, they are high definition and can be zoomed in a lot,  they looked good.  There were a few areas the welder had marked that he himself wanted to grind out and redo.  Judging by the photo,  he didn't have to  they looked fine.  I will be putting my eyes on it,  and if asked to do the next inspection I'll have a conversation with the engineer in charge of the project.  If he is fine with VT via HD photos then I'll do it,  and list that in the notes section.  As far as falsifying anything, I have never and will never cross that line....  There is Grey which I feel I may have walked that line,  and there is black!
Reply:Well,  the spec calls for 8%, the photos do show many more,  most you can see easily.  I would say they cover about 30% or more.  As stated though,  I'll be going myself,  I feel this is the only way for me to feel right about it.
Reply:Originally Posted by No1upWell,  the spec calls for 8%, the photos do show many more,  most you can see easily.  I would say they cover about 30% or more.  As stated though,  I'll be going myself,  I feel this is the only way for me to feel right about it.
Reply:it calls for "real time inspection" right..WTF?  you gotto be there! you'll screw it up for all of us at the very least,your job is one of inspector,one who inspects..in·spectinˈspekt/Submitverblook at (someone or something) closely, typically to assess their condition or to discover any shortcomings."they were inspecting my outside paintwork for cracks and flaws"examine (someone or something) to ensure that they reach an official standard."customs officers came aboard to inspect our documents"synonyms:examine, check, scrutinize, investigate, vet, test, monitor, survey, study, look over, peruse, scan, explore, probe; MoreOriginearly 17th century: from Latin inspect- ‘looked into, examined,’ from the verb inspicere (from in- ‘in’ + specere ‘look at’), or from its frequentative, inspectare .Translate inspect toUse over time for: inspectperhaps you'd like to apply for a job with homeland security,tell'm you'd like to work at home via you new i pad 5...i'l pull your cwi from you if i could..face all times with a positive mental attitude,then and only then will you have done your best.
Reply:Originally Posted by iron mikeit calls for "real time inspection" right..WTF?  you gotto be there! you'll screw it up for all of us at the very least,your job is one of inspector,one who inspects..in·spectinˈspekt/Submitverblook at (someone or something) closely, typically to assess their condition or to discover any shortcomings."they were inspecting my outside paintwork for cracks and flaws"examine (someone or something) to ensure that they reach an official standard."customs officers came aboard to inspect our documents"synonyms:examine, check, scrutinize, investigate, vet, test, monitor, survey, study, look over, peruse, scan, explore, probe; MoreOriginearly 17th century: from Latin inspect- ‘looked into, examined,’ from the verb inspicere (from in- ‘in’ + specere ‘look at’), or from its frequentative, inspectare .Translate inspect toUse over time for: inspectperhaps you'd like to apply for a job with homeland security,tell'm you'd like to work at home via you new i pad 5...i'l pull your cwi from you if i could..
Reply:Originally Posted by No1upNeed some advice. Local welding shop wants me to fill out the inspection report via pictures his welders have taken (on towers).  The spec calls for inspections to be performed by a CWI.  I know the welders and the shop,  they have a solid reputation and the welders are top notch...  So,  I'm not sure if it's wrong,  it feels wrong.  On one hand I am technically looking at the welds,  on the other I'm not actually out there.  Is it wrong morally?  Legally? Or not wrong at all?
Reply:The welding inspectors on this site judge welds from photos all day long. They even call it based on poor grainy photos and get it right every time.FWIW, building departments are allowing photos of work to be submitted by email and approved by the inspectors without a site visit more and more. It saves everyone a lot of time and money and when dealing with someone who delivers quality work regardless of any inspections it just makes more sense.Mr. HE
Reply:Originally Posted by iron mikeit calls for "real time inspection" right..WTF?  you gotto be there! you'll screw it up for all of us at the very least,your job is one of inspector,one who inspects..in·spectinˈspekt/Submitverblook at (someone or something) closely, typically to assess their condition or to discover any shortcomings."they were inspecting my outside paintwork for cracks and flaws"examine (someone or something) to ensure that they reach an official standard."customs officers came aboard to inspect our documents"synonyms:examine, check, scrutinize, investigate, vet, test, monitor, survey, study, look over, peruse, scan, explore, probe; MoreOriginearly 17th century: from Latin inspect- ‘looked into, examined,’ from the verb inspicere (from in- ‘in’ + specere ‘look at’), or from its frequentative, inspectare .Translate inspect toUse over time for: inspectperhaps you'd like to apply for a job with homeland security,tell'm you'd like to work at home via you new i pad 5...i'l pull your cwi from you if i could..Originally Posted by No1upMike, I think maybe you are taking it way overboard.  The spec does not call out "real time inspection,"  the photos all have good lighting,  fillet gauges,  and tape measure to show size.  There are 4 gusset plates,  and a few reinforcement bars,  nothing critical. I put my stamp on it only because I 100% feel they did a fine job.  After speaking with a good friend of mine (an engineer/cwi)  I feel better.  He tells me that it's my call,  as long as the spec does not specify,  taken everything in to account,  we all have to make judgement calls sometimes.  If it were a walk way or something that supports life then it's best not to risk it,  but sometimes you have no choice. After showing him the pictures he told me not to give it a Second thought.
Reply:Shovel,  that's not what I'm saying at all...  However feel free to use words and meanings of your choosing and and parade them around as if they were mine.  :-)I don't know if you understand that I'm the OP of this thread?  I wanted to encourage ideas and conversation about this particular situation.  I'm sure it happens a lot.  I've already determined the best course of action that works for me.  Please do not turn this in to an attack.  I value the opinion of this community and that is why I originally posted this thread.  I'm going to take a wild guess and say you have not read every post.  However if I am incorrect in this assumption and you did read them all,  I'm at a loss as to your reply.  It's childish at best.  I have approved many surface preperation inspections based on  the word and photo of the contractor (depending on our past history/workmanship)  not being able to be on site.  The difference in this this situation is that I was not planning on following it up with a VT when I was available.  As stated on an earlier post,  I will be going out of my  way a bit later this week but will make sure all is well.  I'm sure the gusset plates will be fine until then ;-) If Inspectors have not extend to you this courtesy,  perhaps they feel like your word/workmanship is not up to par?  The welders that I approved have a very high reputation,  and have never given me reason to doubt.  At the end of the day,  one can not be everywhere,  at all times.  This is of course,  my view after coming across this situation and speaking with professionals with much more experience. If I came across a situation like this again,  I would probably handle it just as I did this one,  the only difference is I would plan for a trip to the site instead of making a shot gun trip out of my other scheduled inspections.I encourage the moderators to lock this thread if people want to turn something that can be educational to someone,  in to a flam war.  That was not the intent of this thread,  however I tend to forget people will be hateful just for the sake of being hateful.   To any new Inspectors out there,  if you run across a situation like this,  I hope this thread is helpful.Last edited by No1up; 07-06-2014 at 08:27 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by No1upShovel,  that's not what I'm saying at all...  However feel free to use words and meanings of your choosing and and parade them around as if they were mine.  :-)I don't know if you understand that I'm the OP of this thread?  I wanted to encourage ideas and conversation about this particular situation.  I'm sure it happens a lot.  I've already determined the best course of action that works for me.  Please do not turn this in to an attack.  I value the opinion of this community and that is why I originally posted this thread.  I'm going to take a wild guess and say you have not read every post.  However if I am incorrect in this assumption and you did read them all,  I'm at a loss as to your reply.  It's childish at best.  I have approved many surface preperation inspections based on  the word and photo of the contractor (depending on our past history/workmanship)  not being able to be on site.  The difference in this this situation is that I was not planning on following it up with a VT when I was available.  As stated on an earlier post,  I will be going out of my  way a bit later this week but will make sure all is well.  I'm sure the gusset plates will be fine until then ;-) If Inspectors have not extend to you this courtesy,  perhaps they feel like your word/workmanship is not up to par?  The welders that I approved have a very high reputation,  and have never given me reason to doubt.  At the end of the day,  one can not be everywhere,  at all times.  This is of course,  my view after coming across this situation and speaking with professionals with much more experience. If I came across a situation like this again,  I would probably handle it just as I did this one,  the only difference is I would plan for a trip to the site instead of making a shot gun trip out of my other scheduled inspections.I encourage the moderators to lock this thread if people want to turn something that can be educational to someone,  in to a flam war.  That was not the intent of this thread,  however I tend to forget people will be hateful just for the sake of being hateful.   To any new Inspectors out there,  if you run across a situation like this,  I hope this thread is helpful.
Reply:Originally Posted by No1upI'm a CWI to D1.1,  I can navigate it well.  There were a few areas the welder had marked that he himself wanted to grind out and redo.  Judging by the photo,  he didn't have to  they looked fine.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonI understand.  If you want the thread deleted, by all means, you are the originator. I would still like to know what spec it was. You can PM it to me if you wish and I will keep it discrete.
Reply:No sweat. I think if you go out and solidify your findings in person, that would be the ethical thing. Congrats on making CWI anyhow.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:If you didn't take the picture of 'that weld' in 'that location', YOU DID NOT inspect 'that weld'.Remember the creepy feeling, it won't be your last.Matt
Reply:I will be heading out Tuesday for an inspection up north.  I'll have to take a 100 mile detour 200 round trip,  but I'll definitely feel better about it. I'll nab some pics on my phone,  see if I can figure out how to upload them.  I'd like to get your thoughts on the welds.  I've always been impressed with the quality of the workmanship these guys put out.And Matt,  I definitely hear ya brother, I didn't feel right about it,  which is what lead me to take corrective action.  I'm sure I could have stuck my head in the sand and all would have been well,  but I simply did not feel 100% about it,  99% simply wasn't good enough.Last edited by No1up; 07-06-2014 at 10:21 PM.
Reply:I think the biggest question is not in whether you can tell the quality of the weld you are looking at in a photo.  The big question to be answered is "How do I KNOW (beyond a shadow of doubt) the photo I am looking at is actually of the object they say it is (including the physical location/address of the object)?I have no doubts that photos can tell as good a story as an actual onsite visual inspection, but where is the process to authenticate and confirm the photos are what they are purported to be of?Kinda makes me imagine someone saying "Hey Fred, save those images and we will use them again on another job, just make sure to arrange them in a different order and change the file numbers on the pics".If someone is willing to practice this as some sort of "Honor system" procedure where you just have blind faith in what is told, then why even bother to look at photos, after all........they told you he was a good weldor and always does good welds.
Reply:Video chat saves some headaches. I've watched the engineering dept on some jobs do real time video to make decisions on a job. It can save some time. As for inspection, it may work in some cases.  Nothing beats a true eyes on though.Long after the price is forgotten, the quality will remain.Both of my Poppy's 1954 Short Hoods -Third generation to weld with it and teaching a fourthSA 2## - Bought and sold more than I can remember or care to list, 8 in the shop right now
Reply:Originally Posted by No1upAnd Matt,  I definitely hear ya brother, I didn't feel right about it,  which is what lead me to take corrective action.  I'm sure I could have stuck my head in the sand and all would have been well,  but I simply did not feel 100% about it,  99% simply wasn't good enough.
Reply:well. photos are only photos, and even if mother teresa and the holiest man on earth were calling in your favor,i'm certain that if you forwarded the request to the aws(or who ever your certifying agency would be) you will get turned down.i have no concern with any other blessing for procedures than the certifying agency.face all times with a positive mental attitude,then and only then will you have done your best.
Reply:Well, having thought about this a bit longer, I believe that it is at least a breach of procedure to "sign off" on a visual inspection via photos (in lieu of "in person") unless that alternative is explicitly allowed by the inspection authority rules/standards.This process is certainly capable of giving a hawk-eyed inspector a means of a visual inspection remotely, but are ALL the entities of ALL parties comfortable enough with this to make it a "standard practice?And it gets back to the ethics of all parties at the end of a day anyhow.  In a checks and balance system, some folks are checking other folks' work to confirm it was done right.  So, if there is a way to confirm the authenticity of a photo, and ALL parties agree to the process...........I see no reason why photos would not suffice.  But it really needs an official ruling or interpretation by the reigning authority before individual CWIs adopt it as "their SOP".
Reply:I took the CWI seminar and test a couple months ago (I passed!).During the seminar my instructor made the statement "Do not inspect welds based on pictures!"
Reply:Originally Posted by StickWeldor87I took the CWI seminar and test a couple months ago (I passed!).During the seminar my instructor made the statement "Do not inspect welds based on pictures!"
Reply:Originally Posted by StickWeldor87... "Do not inspect welds based on pictures!"
Reply:some things need to always be "above board"..the standards we live by included.'face all times with a positive mental attitude,then and only then will you have done your best.
Reply:Originally Posted by No1upIt was an in house specification for a phone company (which shall remain nameless) .  I don't have the spec on hand,  it's at the office,  but if I did I don't know if I would be authorized to share it.  I don't see the harm in it mind you,  but at this point I think it's pointless.  It's just a hand full of drawings,  submittals and scope of work.  .
Reply:that's surprising!face all times with a positive mental attitude,then and only then will you have done your best.
Reply:Originally Posted by dvaDoes the specification have an inspection procedure listed? If the owner is performing code welding, I would assume that they would have a procedure as part of their QA program. I just reviewd my site procedure and D1.1 welds can be inspected with a photo as long as a 1/16 inch markings on a tape measure or ruler can be made out in the picture. You said that tape a masures were used in the photos, as long as this jives with the owners procedures you should have no problem. Also, the CWI or ASME VT-1 individual per our procedure is required to have a Jaegar J-1 eye exam each year. All this depends on the owner and how they comply with specific codes, this utility may have used other like methods to get the same result.
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonDid it give a percentage amount?
Reply:Originally Posted by dvaNo percentage amount. There are a many ways to write these procedures and our procedure covers ASME Section III, B31.1 and structural. Each one of these codes has their one NDE and inspection requirements. Owners can always add owner specific requirements. This is why I have been asking about the owners procedures. This is what the CWI should be following as it may be above the D1.1 minimum requirements.