The guy who messed up his jeep had questions

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Hey i posted the thread about the welds on my jeep. I am x ray qualified at a shipyard however I mainly weld stick. However I have passed mig x rays here too. My gap was 1/4-1/2 big and we weld these all the time at the yard, we have ceramicBacking a and do root beads, fill the butt up and the reinforce it, which was exactly what I did however I don't think my mig machine is capable of penetrating 3/16s metal. Maybe you could help point me in the right direction. Will this type of butt weld not work on my jeep? Or should I re fit a new 2x4 and just do a quarter inch filet weld? I was just looking for advice an I figured something wasn't right. At my job they basically have a sheet that tells you what heat to set your machine to and then we just weld. Then the welds are x rated and visually inspected. I've only been welding for 9 months but being as that I weld on aircraft carriers I figured I was capable of welding on my sports cage. Any help is much appreciatedI'm just not sure why a butt weld will not be acceptable for a structural piece like this? As I said we do this all the time on the ship and I'm not sure why a but weld is any less strong than a tightly fitted fillet weld. Any HELP is appreciated, please leave the jokes out of this thread bc I would like to get some useful information and not just read a bunch of lame Internet jokes on a forum, I would much rather read helpful solutions to my problem. Thanks!!!!Perhaps my problem isn't in the gap "although most of you acted like filling a 1/2 inch gap was impossible" maybe my problem is the lack of power on my mig machine in which case I can purchase a stick welder which is something i probably should have done anyway.
Reply:Originally Posted by Steven4estHey i posted the thread about the welds on my jeep. I am x ray qualified at a shipyard however I mainly weld stick. However I have passed mig x rays here too. My gap was 1/4-1/2 big and we weld these all the time at the yard, we have ceramicBacking a and do root beads, fill the butt up and the reinforce it, which was exactly what I did however I don't think my mig machine is capable of penetrating 3/16s metal. Maybe you could help point me in the right direction. Will this type of butt weld not work on my jeep? Or should I re fit a new 2x4 and just do a quarter inch filet weld? I was just looking for advice an I figured something wasn't right. At my job they basically have a sheet that tells you what heat to set your machine to and then we just weld. Then the welds are x rated and visually inspected. I've only been welding for 9 months but being as that I weld on aircraft carriers I figured I was capable of welding on my sports cage. Any help is much appreciatedI'm just not sure why a butt weld will not be acceptable for a structural piece like this? As I said we do this all the time on the ship and I'm not sure why a but weld is any less strong than a tightly fitted fillet weld. Any HELP is appreciated, please leave the jokes out of this thread bc I would like to get some useful information and not just read a bunch of lame Internet jokes on a forum, I would much rather read helpful solutions to my problem. Thanks!!!!Perhaps my problem isn't in the gap "although most of you acted like filling a 1/2 inch gap was impossible" maybe my problem is the lack of power on my mig machine in which case I can purchase a stick welder which is something i probably should have done anyway.
Reply:I prefer to have a gap than a tight fit. You have to figure out what gap, bevel, and land, (root face) works best for you, and for the process you are using. Everybody has their opinion on what works best for them.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Pictures? Specs on machine and material?Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI prefer to have a gap than a tight fit. You have to figure out what gap, bevel, and land, (root face) works best for you, and for the process you are using. Everybody has their opinion on what works best for them.
Reply:As an example...here are a few pics of one of my cages to show you how tight I fit tubing.Consistent fit = consistent welds = less stress = easier removal/installation = safer carThis is 1.75" x .095" DOM mild steel. http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabIMHO, you shouldn't have any gaps on roll cages. No material in a cage is thick enough to require a gap...a bevel, yes, but no gaps.
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24How much bevel would be used on fish mouthed joints with .120 wall thickness material?Half of the material thickness? Just curious what a pro like you does.kidtigger24
Reply:Originally Posted by Steven4estHey i posted the thread about the welds on my jeep. I am x ray qualified at a shipyard however I mainly weld stick. However I have passed mig x rays here too. My gap was 1/4-1/2 big and we weld these all the time at the yard, we have ceramicBacking a and do root beads, fill the butt up and the reinforce it, which was exactly what I did however I don't think my mig machine is capable of penetrating 3/16s metal. Maybe you could help point me in the right direction. Will this type of butt weld not work on my jeep? Or should I re fit a new 2x4 and just do a quarter inch filet weld? I was just looking for advice an I figured something wasn't right. At my job they basically have a sheet that tells you what heat to set your machine to and then we just weld. Then the welds are x rated and visually inspected. I've only been welding for 9 months but being as that I weld on aircraft carriers I figured I was capable of welding on my sports cage. Any help is much appreciatedI'm just not sure why a butt weld will not be acceptable for a structural piece like this? As I said we do this all the time on the ship and I'm not sure why a but weld is any less strong than a tightly fitted fillet weld. Any HELP is appreciated, please leave the jokes out of this thread bc I would like to get some useful information and not just read a bunch of lame Internet jokes on a forum, I would much rather read helpful solutions to my problem. Thanks!!!!Perhaps my problem isn't in the gap "although most of you acted like filling a 1/2 inch gap was impossible" maybe my problem is the lack of power on my mig machine in which case I can purchase a stick welder which is something i probably should have done anyway.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabIMHO, you shouldn't have any gaps on roll cages. No material in a cage is thick enough to require a gap...a bevel, yes, but no gaps.
Reply:Gezz, that is nice.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:I agree with ZT with the stress issue. Cut through a top tube on a old motorcycle frame and watch how much it will spring appart.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPYou would know better than I! The last time I built a roll bar was back in the early 70s. I'm just a structural welder.
Reply:Agreed, that is VERY nice.The way the tube is fitted, is where the strength comes from,as the photos above show. If possible even stay away from butt joints.Miller 252Miller Bobcat 225Lincoln MigPak 1801959 Hyster forkliftHarris OA torch
Reply:okay thank you, that makes perfect sense, and yes we weld huge butt gaps on our carriers. I thought this would be the same kinda deal, but i see the less gap the better, i will be re fitting everything
Reply:Originally Posted by Steven4estHey i posted the thread about the welds on my jeep. I am x ray qualified at a shipyard however I mainly weld stick. However I have passed mig x rays here too. My gap was 1/4-1/2 big and we weld these all the time at the yard, we have ceramicBacking a and do root beads, fill the butt up and the reinforce it, which was exactly what I did however I don't think my mig machine is capable of penetrating 3/16s metal. Maybe you could help point me in the right direction. Will this type of butt weld not work on my jeep? Or should I re fit a new 2x4 and just do a quarter inch filet weld? I was just looking for advice an I figured something wasn't right. At my job they basically have a sheet that tells you what heat to set your machine to and then we just weld. Then the welds are x rated and visually inspected. I've only been welding for 9 months but being as that I weld on aircraft carriers I figured I was capable of welding on my sports cage. Any help is much appreciatedI'm just not sure why a butt weld will not be acceptable for a structural piece like this? As I said we do this all the time on the ship and I'm not sure why a but weld is any less strong than a tightly fitted fillet weld. Any HELP is appreciated, please leave the jokes out of this thread bc I would like to get some useful information and not just read a bunch of lame Internet jokes on a forum, I would much rather read helpful solutions to my problem. Thanks!!!!Perhaps my problem isn't in the gap "although most of you acted like filling a 1/2 inch gap was impossible" maybe my problem is the lack of power on my mig machine in which case I can purchase a stick welder which is something i probably should have done anyway.
Reply:Also, we don't do any fitting, we get to the job and the job is pre fitted and tacked, we just run the beads. Sometimes I have to grind the toes of my welds but I've never failed an x ray.
Reply:As far as weld size, is a quarter inch bead all I need?
Reply:I have to grind some of my welds too - don't tell anyone  LOLDave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabFor TIG welding I would do about half but keep a fairly shallow angle..for MIG I go about 3/4 and give it a wider angle to have more a "valley" to weld into.
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24Thanks for the info. I'm on a motorcycle forum, and they have this big thread about steering neck welding failures from a motorcycle manufacturer. Just want to make sure no one does crap like this. These are not my photos or welds. Just wondering if beveling would have prevented this.kidtigger24
Reply:In the thread that these pictures came from, the manufacturer is claiming that the welds broke because the guy supposedly ground down the welds. But if it was fully penetrated, you wouldn't see any of the hole saw marks, right?kidtigger24  They think I’m crazy, but I know better. It is not I who am crazy. It is I who am MAD!
Reply:Hey ZT, may I ask what you use to cut out the notches to fit so well? Also what bender?
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24In the thread that these pictures came from, the manufacturer is claiming that the welds broke because the guy supposedly ground down the welds. But if it was fully penetrated, you wouldn't see any of the hole saw marks, right?kidtigger24
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24Thanks for the info. I'm on a motorcycle forum, and they have this big thread about steering neck welding failures from a motorcycle manufacturer. Just want to make sure no one does crap like this. These are not my photos or welds. Just wondering if beveling would have prevented this.kidtigger24The title of the thread reads.."The guy who messed up his jeep had questions"Now I have questions...Because something don't add up.Did YOU mess it up or someone else???And to answer one of your questions..Providing the fit up is really good YES 1/4" beads are acceptable as long as the penetration is there.Take a look in any race car and tell me how big the welds are....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Not that it matters, but my buddy was supposed to be knowledgeable and leading this job, it's his welder, he did most of the beads, I did the underside of the reinforced later, but he did all the fittings. I didn't really think much of the gaps bc like I said I weld up big gaps with ceramics on stick all the time, the mig I use at work seems to be WAY different then how his machine welds.
Reply:Originally Posted by Steven4estHey ZT, may I ask what you use to cut out the notches to fit so well? Also what bender?
Reply:Yeah definitely, if they let me fit my own parts I would lol, I'm sure I can fit them accordingly, I just wasn't aware that the fits needed to be that perfect to be secure. It was a mistake that I learned the hardway. Not a big deal, I'm glad I asked for advice and can now go back and do it correctly. As far as being a operator and not a weldor, I agree I can't really set a mig machine to lay the beads I want, I thought my friend could but apparently not lol. Stick welding tho my beads come out much cleaner and I can produce a much better weld. It's not like I've been doing this for years as I've got almost a year of "operating" I'm here to learn, and asked for advice so I can do things the right way and I'm glad after a few days ofJokes I got some answers. I will be sure to report back and post all pictures toMake sure it's done right and If its wrong again I will glady re do it again. A forum isn't going to hurt my feelings lol thanks for the advice
Reply:Not to hard it was after all painless, could have been worse, we are all learning all the time
Reply:Originally Posted by Steven4estYeah definitely, if they let me fit my own parts I would lol, I'm sure I can fit them accordingly, I just wasn't aware that the fits needed to be that perfect to be secure. It was a mistake that I learned the hardway. Not a big deal, I'm glad I asked for advice and can now go back and do it correctly. As far as being a operator and not a weldor, I agree I can't really set a mig machine to lay the beads I want, I thought my friend could but apparently not lol. Stick welding tho my beads come out much cleaner and I can produce a much better weld. It's not like I've been doing this for years as I've got almost a year of "operating" I'm here to learn, and asked for advice so I can do things the right way and I'm glad after a few days ofJokes I got some answers. I will be sure to report back and post all pictures toMake sure it's done right and If its wrong again I will glady re do it again. A forum isn't going to hurt my feelings lol thanks for the advice
Reply:Originally Posted by ZTFabNEVER leave the "wings" on the side of the tube. I always grind those down until I get back to the wall thickness of the tube. Leaving those on will force you to weld with less amps than required for the tubing thickness as the tapered part of the tube is much thinner and will cause the failure you see in those pics.
Reply:Originally Posted by Steven4estNot that it matters, but my buddy was supposed to be knowledgeable and leading this job, it's his welder, he did most of the beads, I did the underside of the reinforced later, but he did all the fittings. I didn't really think much of the gaps bc like I said I weld up big gaps with ceramics on stick all the time, the mig I use at work seems to be WAY different then how his machine welds.
Reply:Originally Posted by kidtigger24So what your saying is you ground down to the metal thickness on the white line in your picture below?kidtigger24
Reply:Originally Posted by zankI do that as well. I grind the knife edge on the ears back to full wall thickness. And then I bevel all the way around the tube.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterThat's standard procedure.......zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by zankI do that as well. I grind the knife edge on the ears back to full wall thickness. And then I bevel all the way around the tube.
Reply:Cool - from what you guys are saying I accidentally did my brother's tubing correctly.  Looked like the feather edge needed to be ground back so the heat would be right - so that's what we did. First fitted tube I ever did - he's family so I'll say I meant to do it that way Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Cool. Thanks guys. Good to know. I made some fish mouthed pieces once and tried to weld them as they were. When I would hit that edge, the heat would just get away from me and blast holes though the piece. Now I know how to do it right.I really love this site.kidtigger24  They think I’m crazy, but I know better. It is not I who am crazy. It is I who am MAD!
Reply:Originally Posted by shovelonGezz, that is nice.
Reply:Originally Posted by Steven4estAlso, we don't do any fitting, we get to the job and the job is pre fitted and tacked, we just run the beads. Sometimes I have to grind the toes of my welds but I've never failed an x ray.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterThat's standard procedure.......zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by jamesyarbroughNot to thread jack, but would any of you guys mind showing a pick of this? I plan on installing some cages in the future and I want to get it right.
Reply:Here's how I do it.CopedDe-burred and the knife edge removedBeveledScale inside tube removed and cleaned
Reply:Looks like a nicely prepared, ready to weld joint Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:That's exactly how it should be done. Leave that knife edge on the tube and it'll "cut you" every time. http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Originally Posted by zankHere's how I do it.CopedDe-burred and the knife edge removedBeveledScale inside tube removed and cleaned
Reply:Originally Posted by zankHere's how I do it.
Reply:Do you compensate for the length lost to grinding down the "knife-edge" when you cut the tube?
Reply:No, because the tube is sitting in the crotch. The deepest part of the cope determines your lengths.