advice on buying welder and learning to weld.

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Hi folks, first post here- I have been avidly reading this forum for some time - recognize a few of you folks from other places on the web, like practical machinist etc.  As a full time professional woodworker, I decided a few years ago to expand my abilities- so bought a 13x40 lathe and a old VN 12 mill and started to read and ask a lot of questions.  Whew- steep learning curve! I'll never be a "real" machinist but can make simple parts that work-   So the problem is this- I can turn metal, and mill metal, and cut metal, but  have no way to stick it together.  -  That is where your advice comes in-  At the moment, I have to weld a 5"x5" 5/16" thick angle iron brackets on to a 6" x 1/4" wall square tube.  This is likely the heaviest welding on steel I will ever do. Then weld  a bunch of 1/2" diameter rebar to the tube, and to each other. (driveway gate posts)  Most of what I will be doing is making things from - 1/8" steel or aluminum.  Motorcycle bag racks etc, utility carts, small repairs.  I am thinking about four options.  I can wait to get a machine to do the aluminum, if necessary. The machine will see intermittent use, after I get done wearing it out practicing.... 1-buy a used Lincoln or Miller AC/DC buzz box for general stick welding.  $3-400. Burn a lot of practice rod and then see what I need.   2- buy a small inverter like a TA 95s,- nice to have a handy little portable like this but will it weld my 5/16" thick brackets?-$3-400-and can have small DC tig as well. I guess a Maxstar 150 is similar  with a lot more amps, but the cost is way up there. 3- buy a bare Thermal Arc 211i, so I have some portability and a stick + mig   $1250  then later  another $6-8 for torch, bottle, foot control to add tig.  Don't know why I need a mig, actually..4- go bucks up and buy a AC/DC tig -stick setup- which is the only one that will let me do aluminum tig- $2500 and up. Like a TA 186, or similar. Seems a bit more complicated to run though- sometimes a simpler machine to set up can be nice for a beginner.   I do not have the money for a dynasty, etc.  There is no space for a large industrial transformer machine, and I do not have the skills to evaluate one used.   Power available is up to 80 amps 230v-single phase. There is a 10 hp rotary for three phase but see no advantage to limiting where the machine can be used. There is  no dedicated outlet yet.   If ya'll can help me sift through this it will be most appreciated.
Reply:Buy a cheap, used stick welder, and go to town. I taught myself to stick weld by watching youtube and practicing. Nothing more. Once you can handle a stick unit, MIG will be easy, and TIG is not that hard to transition to, although there is a definite learning curve. I weld a lot of stuff with my stickmate, and I do scratch start TIG with it. If you do this, it will not cost you a lot of investment up front, and it will help you figure out where to go next. But truthfully, with a decent stick welder and scratch TIG setup, you can get in for under $500 I would say, and you can weld anything steel. Master that before jumping to MIG or TIG for aluminum would be my advice.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Another view would be, get you a 250 or 300 amp mig and spool gun more up front but if you plan on welding into the future your set for about anything in the shop. I just scored a brand new thermal arc 210 for less than half price, a floor demo, and found a tweco 10 pin 25ft spool gun for 175, don't think its ever been used. Have fun shopping either way you go.Thermal Arc 210 - Tweco 211I - Cutmaster 52
Reply:If you add your location to your profile so we know where you are located, you might just be able to find someone here who is local and willing to help.A used AC/DC stick machine would be your least expensive option. It would allow you to do stick welding and learn the basics of scratch start DC tig if t=you add the tig parts. Used transformer stick units aren't all that big. And they are built like tanks so there is very little to go wrong with them. Have the seller demonstrate that it works and you will be OK. A used AC/DC stick machine typically goes for $300-600, but I've seen off brand units like Craftsman's go for  a  lot less.Mig will take the least amount of time to learn the basics. Stick the next most and finally tig. Tig alum will take even longer to get down.The TA 186 would certainly cover most of what you want to do, and if you have the money you'd be set for quite awhile..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I suggest starting with a used transformer stick machine like I did. I'm actually selling my Thunderbolt AC/DC now since I got a Dialarc.Location will help us find you something that will fit your needs.GravelThe difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
Reply:Thank you for the replies. I am in Puget Sound, on the Kitsap Peninsula.   There are couple ac/dc thunderbolts for sale on CL.  Both look like they have long leads.  Basically, if they will spark and arc, that is about all the test necessary? These are sort of a "it works or it don't" type situation?
Reply:Thunderbolts don't really just crap out... That being said, when testing make sure the fan runs smooth, no excessive vibrating while welding (this can be adjusted but requires disassembly of the case), general care and maintenance of the unit and yes it has to put down a nice bead.Also check the leads for wear, cuts, bare spots and condition of ground clamp and electrode holder.. Leads can get expensive.Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Option 4 Go Bucks
Reply:I'll take the #1 and a side order of fries Seriously though, good used machines for cheap - sell for near what you paid when you upgrade.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Score a good deal on a thunderbolt, but make sure its in good shape.Go buy (2) 10lb metal cans of Excalibur 7018, 3/32" and 1/8"....You'll be set mate.~John
Reply:Stoneaxe Hello! These guys sure give good advice. I have nothing to add. ^__^
Reply:Regarding the "bucks up" choice-(for me) what about a used syncro 200, Lincoln 175 or 225?  These seem to be able to run on 50 -60 amps of 230v and seem to be much lighter than the full on industrial machines?  I see them on CL for 1200-1800, often with bottles and cart etc.
Reply:Used is a good thing Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:If it there is a Junior College near you that offers welding classes, than that is really the best and cheapest way to go to learn how to weld.  You will use the school's materials and get quality instruction at the same time.  While there, you will get a chance to use different machines (depending on the school), and then make a better decision as to the welder you will purchase for home use.  That's what I did and it paid off in the long run.  Also, learning how to stick weld is a good way to start.  A friend recommended this when I first started and I have found that my over-all welding skills improved as my SMAW (stick welding) skill improved. Also, something that rarely gets mentioned in physical fitness.  Granted, those who are out of shape, but can weld well, have the necessary strength and flexibility as a result of long hours of actual welding.  But a good physical fitness program will help you get better faster, and also help to alleviate repetitive use injuries like a sore back.GarLincoln Electric, Power MIG 256Hypertherm Powermax 45 Miller Dynasty 280DXSmith O/A torchGenesis of a welding table
Reply:Get something like a 180 dual(115-230) with CO2 and .030 wire.You already know the fabbing part.Measure-cut -angle. If it's critical ask a real welder to fix it up after you drill, grind, tack everything in place etc etc.If it's non critical ? Weld, grind the turds, weld again. It all comes in time.Within a month it'll be "hey man---can ya spin something up on that lathe"....errrrr Iant got chit ta hang a wood chithouse door for the ole lady.... ?We're all the same. Take a couple kinds of beer.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Originally Posted by BurpeeGet something like a 180 dual(115-230) with CO2 and .030 wire.You already know the fabbing part.Measure-cut -angle. If it's critical ask a real welder to fix it up after you drill, grind, tack everything in place etc etc.If it's non critical ? Weld, grind the turds, weld again. It all comes in time.Within a month it'll be "hey man---can ya spin something up on that lathe"....errrrr Iant got chit ta hang a wood chithouse door for the ole lady.... ?We're all the same. Take a couple kinds of beer.
Reply:I'd go thermal arc 211 if I were you and had the cash it only takes a 30 amp breaker and can mig,stick, and tig. The other good part about it is how small the machine is so it will save you a lot on space and the electric bill as compared to heavy machines and finally it is lightweight so you don't need an extra hand moving it.Lincoln pro core 125 14''chop saw7 inch grinder,2-4.5 inch grinders,electric die grinder.Half inch drillAnd alot of hand tools
Reply:If you are a machinist, a small inverter may be your ticket. You can do most anything in a machine shop with these two on a moderate basis. Inverters are just easier to learn with I believe, very practical in size and set-up.Constant Current Weldor.
Reply:Hey Stoneaxe. On another thread you asked what I thought of the Lincoln Squarewave 175, 225 machines. Either would work for your purpose. Of the two, I would lean more toward the 225, but that is based on my skill level. What isn't so apparent, to me anyway, is what you are trying to achieve. You are currently learning how to machine parts, which is a skill that takes a considerable amount of time and resources. To attempt to learn the various welding processes at the same time could be a bit of a challenge. If I were in your situation I would follow the advice of those suggesting a small portable MIG machine or one of the new inverter 3-in-one machines. A 180 amp 230 volt would probably serve you better than trying to master aluminum TIG. It's one thing to learn the procedures and another entirely different thing to master them. I have experienced attempting to machine critical parts that were welded up by welders who did not control the heat and turned a machinable part into something so brittle that I had to scrap it. Not attempting to discourage, just don't get in over your head.
Reply:Check out welders for sale on your local Craigslist, or as far away as you think you'd drive to buy one.  Get to know your local market.  I've gotten some great deals and missed a few phenomenal deals.  On occasion, you can get a new welder on a closeout deal when someone changes a model or renames the brand (Themal Arc - TWECO)."USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:yeah, I have been watching CL, I just missed a 225 precision arc with bottle, cart, helmet etc for $750- and due only to my own sense of reluctance to spend money on something I feel inadequate to check out myself. Of course the bottle, gauge, helmet and scrap value was probably $750........... oh well. Essentially, I am gonna do the same thing with a welding that I did with machine work, which is practice, and ask questions to learn- the local C.College has welding course, but it is a hour away from me each way.  I don't expect to become a pro, just want to become moderately competent .  My main strength is the ability to be ruthlessly critical of my own work.   Tomorrow I will probably order up a Tweco 211i.  Folks seem to love them, except for the comments on the bulky tig gun.
Reply:Advice on the relative merits of the tweco 211 and the TA 201 would be most appreciated- one with stick mig and tig, the other with stick and tig only, for close to the same price- is the 201 that much better at one or both of it's tasks to be comparable in cost?  From my reading, it seems the 201 has a HF start ability, and comes with a torch, Whereas the 211 has a lift start and the torch is an extra- part of the attraction of a inverter is easy transport- but a bottle would add a lot of hassle- how well does flux core wire run, anyway? I always had the idea it was a "homeowner friendly" type of thing and no serious welder would think of it- is this idea all screwed up? I mean, having a roll of flux core in a light weight package could make it really easy to move that machine to the site, eh?
Reply:You are correct that the 201TS has HF start and the 211i is lift-start only. The 201TS is also a better stick welder and supposedly will run 6010s well, which the 211i will not. Both are DC machines and so cannot weld aluminum without expensive helium gas and special techniques.If you budget will allow, you could also consider the 252i which is a heavier-duty version of the 211i. It has the same TIG limitations but it is an excellent stick welder and a better MIG welder than the 211i, and it does have a second solenoid valve for the TIG function. It is 208/230V only so not as useful as a portable machine.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:Originally Posted by Silicon-basedYou are correct that the 201TS has HF start and the 211i is lift-start only. The 201TS is also a better stick welder and supposedly will run 6010s well, which the 211i will not. Both are DC machines and so cannot weld aluminum without expensive helium gas and special techniques.If you budget will allow, you could also consider the 252i which is a heavier-duty version of the 211i. It has the same TIG limitations but it is an excellent stick welder and a better MIG welder than the 211i, and it does have a second solenoid valve for the TIG function. It is 208/230V only so not as useful as a portable machine.John