Okay, I'm in over my head, chromoly and hardened steel

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So my buddy is building an AK 47, he bought a welder cheap HF 90A flux core. Then he tried to weld the trunion (sp?) to the receiver. But could not penetrate the hardened steel, the chromoly (4130)receiver did melt. He has ask me to help him. I warned Him that I am not an armor or gunsmith by any stretch. So first I have to clean up his mess. the plan is to drill pocket holes (4) on each side and then weld it on. Small holes, and he will grind it down. I don't know what steel it is but his flux cored attempt didn't melt any of the hardened steel at all. So is that even possible? He says the gun building guys do it all the time. Looks like I have two choices: tig with my 80 amp scratch start, or the lincoln 180 with maybe some preheat?Any constructive advice?Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:I wouldn't touch that with any thought of welding on it.GravelThe difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
Reply:I see future headlines from Floridastan----AGAIN !Before anyone touches anything on a firearm it needs to understand Copper Units of Pressure.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Originally Posted by Bluehunter40So my buddy is building an AK 47, he bought a welder cheap HF 90A flux core. Then he tried to weld the trunion (sp?) to the receiver. But could not penetrate the hardened steel, the chromoly (4130)receiver did melt. He has ask me to help him. I warned Him that I am not an armor or gunsmith by any stretch. So first I have to clean up his mess. the plan is to drill pocket holes (4) on each side and then weld it on. Small holes, and he will grind it down. I don't know what steel it is but his flux cored attempt didn't melt any of the hardened steel at all. So is that even possible? He says the gun building guys do it all the time. Looks like I have two choices: tig with my 80 amp scratch start, or the lincoln 180 with maybe some preheat?Any constructive advice?Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:Post some pics in the welding fail thread.   I want to see this cluster furkTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Don't do it. Don't. Do. It.
Reply:Total and complete FAIL is  right!!!!  Seriously, building a rifle with a Horrible Fright "phucks" core welder?????  Dude, what are you guys thinking?   This is a disaster waitin to happen or a joke bull$hit post, just to get us all excited!!!  Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:First, he is not that good of a buddy, just a guy I know, who knows I'm doing a little welding. He begged me to try to fix it. I don't build weapons, I just buy them, I don't even own any assault rifles. So if your thinking I was somehow involved in this cluster, I'm not. I just wanted to try to help with the understanding that I am not liable for ruining, safety, killing anyone, on just me.ting the crap down, so I get it, in my minds eye, it's just a chance to learn about these two metals. So basically, I'm just given this with no expectations of success. In his defense he has build several AR rifles in the past that I know function well. I guess he had a brain fart this timeSent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:By the way, my wife got up this morning and saw the parts, she said "I hope your not going to do this" Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:I have TIG  welded hardened Chromoly many times(not on weapons) with no issues.www.tjsperformance.comDynasty 300 DXHTP 240HTP Microcut 380Hyperthem 85JD2 Hyd Bender and HF Hyd Ring Roller all in one =(Frankenbender)Bpt. Mill/DRO4' x 8' CNC Plasma TableInstagram: tjsperformanceYT: TJS Welding and Fabrication
Reply:Originally Posted by TJSI have TIG  welded hardened Chromoly many times(not on weapons) with no issues.
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Reply:I haven't done anything yet. Not sure I'm going to do anything. He says the bolt locks into the barrel and once locked its safe to fire, and says it won't fire unless the bolt is locked in. I consider everything to be important in a firearms operation, but wtf it's not mine and he didn't pay me and he is not gonna, I have an email says I'm not a gunsmith or armor and dont think it's a good idea, says he has already heated the 4130 and for all I know he ruined it. He agreed so I don't see any real danger to me. I certainly won't be shooting this POS. so it's a learning project plain and simple. Fail or not! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:Weld on it only if you are going to melt it down or cut it into tiny pieces afterwards. There are some liabilities that you can not get away from no matter what you have in writing.Just trying to look out for you, bud.GravelThe difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
Reply:By the way, he know he screwed it up and says the receiver flat only costs $35, so he can build another if I can't get it to stick. Here's my plan, since nobody has offered a better one. 1 clean up receiver with flapped 2 clamp in place and drill 3 holes, dimpling the trunion 3 per heat oven to 500 or so, place barrel assembly in and bake for an hour or so it's pre heated slowly4 clamp it up. Hit center of pocket holes with tig, if the trunion melts, add fillr to pocket until slightly proud5 flapper to welds, return, and say good luck maaaanSent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by GravelWeld on it only if you are going to melt it down or cut it into tiny pieces afterwards. There are some liabilities that you can not get away from no matter what you have in writing.Just trying to look out for you, bud.
Reply:Originally Posted by Bluehunter40By the way, my wife got up this morning and saw the parts, she said "I hope your not going to do this" Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:I wouldn't fool with it, that said, it looks like the barrel is surface treated. No surface treatment IE. nitriding, chroming, case hardening parkerizing etc. is gonna get along with a fusion weld. Matt
Reply:Brazing and or TIG brazing has been used succesfully. Even here on the WW but by a seasoned pro.For $35 its cheaper to get a new reciever. The old one would be good for practice brazing but not worth the liability. Hope this helps and answers your original question.
Reply:I like firearms, welding and helping people.I wouldn't touch it.I don't trust him eitherHe could say no, no i'ts ok, but after he blows a hole in his head it was your fault for fixing it after you admit you are unqualifiedYou're on the hook to pay off his wife and kids for your lifetime to replace him and his income.Hand it back, don't take any money, destroy the receiver and trunion first.I say both the receiver and trunion are scrap and should be cut before they are tossed so the next guy won't do it.The receiver is really just bent sheet metal, If he heated the trunion, it's lost it's HT and it's scrapWhat's wrong with rivets that makes someone who can't weld try to do it on a critical part like that?It was designed that way, just follow the directions.Photos herehttp://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/...ST;f=24;t=8374http://www.homegunsmith.com/Archive/T8374.htmlMy friend is lucky to be alive and uninjured.Saturday he was bump firing an AK that "WAS" welder together. All the welds failed!!! The rear trunion blew off and the top cover and recoil assembly went flying. The bolt and carrier were foreward with a round in the chamber when he quit trying to fire. Had he pulled the trigger most likly me would have had the bolt carrier SHOT into his arm. If he were firing from the sholder the carrier would have SHOT him in the head.After inspecting the rear trunion there was ZERO weld penatration. All the weld material was mearly laid on top of the reciver. A small amount of filler material had dripped down into the trunion forming a small"PIN".The welds on the front trunion also failed. While it is still "atatched" you can wiggle it in the reciver.Judging by the splatter and general crude looks of the welds I belive they are MIG welds.So here here it is in a nut shell.1 inexperenced welder2 poor choice of weld procdure3 DISASTER waiting to happen
Reply:FUBARI only know one gunsmith that ever welded receivers and that was because the gooberment had ordered all the M-14 receivers cut with a shear in the middleto destroy themHe bought them as scrap and welded them back together and built some of the most accurate M-1A's ever to be on a rangeBut he was a army trained gunsmith and machinist and he knew how to weld also he built a lot of prototype weaponsBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Okay then it's a no go, returning the scrap to him. Not my place to destroy it. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:Originally Posted by Bluehunter40First, he is not that good of a buddy, just a guy I know, who knows I'm doing a little welding. He begged me to try to fix it. I don't build weapons, I just buy them, I don't even own any assault rifles. So if your thinking I was somehow involved in this cluster, I'm not. I just wanted to try to help with the understanding that I am not liable for ruining, safety, killing anyone, on just me.ting the crap down, so I get it, in my minds eye, it's just a chance to learn about these two metals. So basically, I'm just given this with no expectations of success. In his defense he has build several AR rifles in the past that I know function well. I guess he had a brain fart this time
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI've put in bold all the things that make this a stupid idea.Your plan is not the better plan.  A new $35 part, and someone who knows what is going on is the better plan.I'm not usually this blunt....but good lord...
Reply:Originally Posted by Bluehunter40Okay, I guess you missed, I'm out, returning parts/scrap to him. Sent from my iPad using TapatalkNo problem, if I was sure that I was doing the right thing, I would not have asked, thanks guysSent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:I have made many modifications to gun receivers and such with no problems at all....Maybe later I will go find the posts......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:For an experienced welder it's probably worth doing your own mods especially if it's tig welded and you have proper knowlage on how to check the bore afterwards.But for an inexperienced welder It can be a death sentance.. If the heat distorts the chamber or the barrel, now you have a hand held pipe bomb! I absolutely wouldn't dream of doing it with a 90amp flux box.I'd like to see your mods zap! My grandfather was a gunsmith with great western arms. I still have thank you letters from John Wayne and president Eisenhower addressed to him! I almost became a smith but there aren't any schools within a 1000 miles of me.You Deffinately made the right choice passing that one up!Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:Originally Posted by Dantheharleyman99For an experienced welder it's probably worth doing your own mods especially if it's tig welded and you have proper knowlage on how to check the bore afterwards.But for an inexperienced welder It can be a death sentance.. If the heat distorts the chamber or the barrel, now you have a hand held pipe bomb! I absolutely wouldn't dream of doing it with a 90amp flux box.I'd like to see your mods zap! My grandfather was a gunsmith with great western arms. I still have thank you letters from John Wayne and president Eisenhower addressed to him! I almost became a smith but there aren't any schools within a 1000 miles of me.You Deffinately made the right choice passing that one up!
Reply:Nice, I love when I come across a great western arms anything, always makes me wonder if the old timer made it!Just out of curiosity what model do you have?What caliber, 45 colt long or 22 long rifle... Most of the revolvers were chambered in 22 because they were one of the biggest providers of movie props and 22l blanks were easy to get but they did make the revolvers chambered in 45 and a few other special order caliber's...I still have one that he hand built for himself, the pair he made for John Wayne were used in the Shootest and the  Eisenhower museum still has the revolver made for him on display last time I checked.Gramps got er done!Real welders know how to penetrate!(Equipment)Whatever can be used to beat my opponent into submission!
Reply:I am not a lawyer.My law school diploma came in today's mail; I won't hear the results of the bar exam for a couple of weeks, and won't be a lawyer until sworn in at the end of September.I've been shooting all of my life, and welding for a couple of years.My advice is this: put the welding torch away, pick up your sledgehammer, and beat the everloving hell out of that receiver.  It's done for.  7.62x39 has a pressure rating north of 45,000 PSI.How good of a welder are you on unknown metal, with unknown heat treatment?Tell him the receiver is trashed.  Give him $35 for a new one, if he insists.  It'll be the best insurance policy you ever bought.Hobart cutting/welding torch.MM252, and nothing else.  My first welder.  Buy once, cry once....but I really would like a nice 50/60A circuit to run it at full strength.A bunch of ideas, and not enough time and money to bring them to life.
Reply:I'm glad you returned the parts without touching them. Here's why. #1- The trunnion has the bolt locking lugs milled integral- messing with the lugs with welding temps has a chance of destroying the integrity of them. Ka-boom! #2- 50 jillion AKs have riveted receiver to trunnion joints- what spasm of idiocy made him decide to weld it?   #3- there may be legal implications here- ask Randy Weaver about what doing a gunsmith favor for a "buddy" resulted in.
Reply:I don't know Randy WeiverSent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Weaver30+ yrs Army Infantry & Field Artillery, 25 yrs agoMiller 350LX Tig Runner TA 210, spool gunLincoln 250/250 IdealArcESAB PCM 500i PlasmaKazoo 30"  vert BSKazoo 9x16 horiz BSClausing 12x24 lathe20T Air Press
Reply:Once had a Federal Marshall bring a box of around 15 hand guns in to the shop for destruction.  He stood there and watched while I took the plasma cutter and ruined them all beyond any hope of repair.  What was left just went in the shop scrap bin.
Reply:run forest run..atf is coming
Reply:Originally Posted by Dantheharleyman99...... My grandfather was a gunsmith with great western arms. I still have thank you letters from John Wayne and president Eisenhower addressed to him!
Reply:I know the OP already stated he is not doing this job and gave the stuff back I just wanted to pipe in a little bit. First as another said, I went to law school but am not a lawyer by any means. However I have worked in the firearms industry for almost 9 years dealing with ATF law on a daily basis. If someone brings you something along these lines, where they are making a firearm. Or rather turning something that is not a firearm into a firearm, there is a fine line between what is legal here and what is not. Technically it is legal for an individual to make or manufacture their own firearm as long as it does not violate the NFA act (full auto, short barrel shotgun rifle, suppressed etc) this firearm cannot be transferred. If a firearm is made with the intention of being sold or transferred in any other way you need to be licensed to do so. There is also a fine line to what point an object becomes a firearm as defined by the ATF. If you worked on this item and at some point in there it became a firearm, you would be liable for everything that follows that point with the ATF. So even though you didn't collect any money for the job or even if you did, you would have made the "firearm" with the intention to transfer it. This would mean you were manufacturing firearms for transfer/distribution with out being licensed. There are a whole lot of fine lines when it comes to ATF regulations, and I have seen the same laws or regs interpreted different ways by different agents, agencies, and offices. Basically anything like this is not worth the risk just from a Government reg standpoint. Now if you take the other legal implications of you manufacturing a firearm and said firearm failing, its not pretty either, and anyone who ever touched that object will get named in the lawsuit. Basically what I am saying is if someone brings you an object they plan on turning into a firearm of any kind, have them consult a licensed gunsmith most of which are also manufacturers by license.  (of course if you are not one)I typed this all out pretty quick so hopefully it makes sense.Last edited by GunGeek; 08-20-2014 at 07:22 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by storemanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Weaver
Reply:Sure am glad you decide to drop it. The wife might not want to visit you in prison. When the movie Taxi Driver came out, the guy in the movie had a device on his arm with a gun attached so as he threw his arm down , the gun would slid into his hand. Well neighbor, who works for US POST OFFICE, ask me if I could weld something for him. He had a drawer guide with gun attached that needed some tacks. While looking at it and thinking, IT HIT ME ! Holy $hit I could go to jail or be a accessory to whatever. I did nothing and he didn't shoot anyone .
Reply:Originally Posted by dubl_tDan,Was(is) your grandfather in Portland OR?I had an old boy do a couple trigger jobs for me. He had a bunch of what you're talking about and even taught gunsmithing at a local community college.Just wonder if its the same guy.Excellent 'smith BTW.