Cutting open safe that may contain paper....

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Hey ya'll,I've got the opportunity to cut open a secure file cabinet here at work that is made with plate (the consensus is 1/4").  I have been told that there is "probably nothing in it, and if there is, it isn't anything that can't burn up with no cause for concern."  We have several cabinets that are the same, and I have looked at how they are constructed, and have figured out a way to cut it open, remove the non-functioning lock work and drawer slides (the contracted locksmith has given up on the lock, after several attempts), and save the bulk of the cabinet to convert to a safe for my own use.  I will be making a single cut (around four sides of the box) about 10 linear feet.On the chance there is anything inside, I would like to save it.  I am thinking of using my plasma cutter and purging the cabinet with a gas (argon or CO2) to mitigate the ability of any possible paper product from igniting and burning (There will be the possibility of some scorching of course.)  Has anyone here ever used argon or CO2 like this.  I know CO2 can be reactive, but makes a great fire suppressor.  I have 2 full bottles, a local supplier that can do a fill in a few hours, and is pretty cheap, so I would like to use it.  I know argon is also used in fire suppression systems, is inert, but I have 1 bottle, and it is a little cost prohibitive, if the job takes any long amount of time.What say yee? CO2, Argon, or let it burn?Thanks,cricman
Reply:I was thinking more along the lines of a sawzall with a demoliton blade. NO sparks, no fire and it will cut through it relatively easy. A larger angle grinder with a cut off disc will also do the job, relatively quick and with less slag/spark vs. a plasma. A demolition saw (gas powered cut-off saw) will cut through it the easiest, a few sparks, so not much damage.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:I would suggest to try to concentrate on the lock itself. That way maybe you can save the cabinet in nice condition. It may require something like carbide cutting.
Reply:I would use a big abrasive cut-off saw to cut most of the way through, then once the material is getting thin, finish the job with a saws-all, or since you have other similar cabinets around to look at, find out where the locking bar is, and drill through it with a hole-saw, once the bar keeping it closed is broken, you're in.
Reply:Punch or drill the lock.  Remove lock, manipulate lock bar, open drawer, done.If you don't care if there's paper or other flammables inside or care about the condition of the contents after you work on the cabinet, just go to it.Small cylinder lock or big dial combination lock?  For the former, drill or punch or melt it out.  Even if you can't oxy-acet CUT it out, you can still oxy-acet MELT it out.
Reply:I vote grinder, and razor wheel. Or drill the lock and use brute force and ignorance. Not that I know anything about opening a locked safe/cabinetDisclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:my vote is for some duct tape and C4... may not have a cabinet after you are done, but it sure looks pretty. hehehehhee. use a sawzall if possible... like it's already been said, no sparks=no fire. no grinding=minimal mess. if it comes down to it, run your grinding wheel so that the sparks shoot out, away from the cabinet... it will minimize the chance for fire inside. molten metal, especially large amounts usually lends itself to a flamable situation, so stay away from the plasma and the O/A torches. as far as the gas goes, don;t bother... IF this job takes you an hour, i'd be very surprised, especially with a grinder and/or saws-all. if you are really concerned about the contents, make as few cuts as possible. this reduces the chance of fire even more... less cutting=less heat=less fire. that would lead me to the option of, like it has also been afformentioned, drill/cut the lock, or the locking bar ONLY and try to play with it a bit... a 4 lb sledge may come in handy here.Later,Andy
Reply:Thanks for the replies ya'll,I'm not so sure a hole saw or sawz-all will cut it; at least not the face.  When the locksmith came out, he drilled it in a strategic location, in a attempt to line up the wheels.  I wasn't there, but someone who was said that he went through 3 drill bits to get a hole in the face.  I suspect the face is more than mild steel.  It has a large piezo powered dial lock (I think its a Mosler) that is essentially busted off at the face, no thanks to an over-eager manager.  I don't have OA, but I do have a TD plasma cutter, and a 7" angle grinder.  I thought of just slicing it open with the grinder, but I don't want to spend a lot of time on it.  I just need to get it open, to either prove its empty, or to remove what's left inside.  I don't want to spend any money on this project, because its for free (I'm hoping to get the remnants.)It really (and practically for me) comes down to the plasma cutter, or a grinder with a cutoff disc.  I'm not too concerned about saving it as a file cabinet.  I'd just as soon gut the box, and weld on a face/door with a locking setup like a job box.cricman
Reply:if that's your opinion on it (gut the box and keep the stuff), then QUICKLY do it with the plasma, or just do it with the grinder... i have found that i can cut a 55 gallon drum in half in about 5 minutes with a 4.5", 11,000 RPM angle grinder... i bet a 7" would go much faster... jsut think about it before you cut it... find the shortest possible path and have at it. don't think about the process too much, jsut use your gut and go for it.Later,Andy
Reply:See if you can punch the lock right out, a nice large hammer and a strong punch, a friend to hold rthe bunch or a jig, and smack the heck out of it, in the large off chance that doesn't work, I would recommend a hole saw with a cermic or something tough center bit, and just drill the entire lock assembly out.
Reply:If you decide to cut the whole box apart, and you truly don't care about the contents....plasma all the way!!!  I used a 4.5" angle grinder with cutoffs to cut the end off of a 150 gallon propane tank earlier this week.  Made a really nice straight cut, but took about 2.5 hours to make roughly 5' of cut in 1/4" thick material.  Wait, probably not that long, actual cutting time, probably less than 1 hour, I kept having to stop and let some of the water drain out so I didn't get soaked/electrified.  So, on second thought, go at it with that 7" grinder!Contact me for any metal polishing needs you may have, my avatar is a pic of a standard, painted fire axe that I ground, sanded polished and buffed to a mirror finish.
Reply:Been there, done that. Fastest- Plasma   Have a water hose near by, burn the rear or bottom. Least chance of fire- Sawzall or hole sawFunnest- Forklift or tall building, concrete floor
Reply:I would try to arc gouge the lock assembly with the plasma. Very little chance of burn thru, and as you get through some of it, you can give the lock a shot or 3 with a hammer and punch. As you dig in deeper, you will probably soften up the case hardened parts with the plasma, and they will yield without too much drama. My vote??? Tell Mythbusters you simply CAN NOT flatten it with a full size steamroller at 30mph.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Oh, it's a -real- security cabinet.Plasma around the lock mechanism and remove the whole guts.  The door will be kaputt, obviously.If the locksmith couldn't get through with 3 bits, he :- is clueless,- grabbed some plain black oxide HSS bits instead of the cobalt bits.- ran into a real security cabinet with strategicaly placed 'bit chewers' (hardened ball bearing balls, hardened tool steel or armor plate pieces, cross-wise hardened rods, etc, etc) in the way,- more than one of the above.The unit -may- have re-lockers that tripped already if the lock mechanism was 'forced' already.  In which case you may have to plasma cut the entire door off.Oh, and we want pics too.  We -love- pics around here.Last edited by MoonRise; 12-06-2007 at 10:24 PM.
Reply:I worked with a guy who's stories I really enjoyed. He confided quite a bit about safe work to me. You see, he was considered the black sheep of the family, for doing the work he had chosen, rather than carrying on the family's rich legacy of safe cracking!  -Oh Henry, get off the phone- All these craftsman, were reformed and  "retired" over 80 years ago. Anyhow, I recall one of his hot tips was that the bottom is usually the "soft spot" of a safe. But also he told me about the job back in 1922 or so, when Uncle Joe was leading the assault on a big old safe. They were trying to tip a heavy box on it's side, to get at the "soft spot". They finally got it tipped over, but then, the heavy old safe, complete with Uncle Joe, and the help, went right down through a couple of the building's floors!Back to the cricman cabinet. If you don't want to try finesse with the lock, I would say butcher the bottom to get in. Then you can hide a patch there easily, and still have a nice cabinet.
Reply:I just remembered another one. -  About the bidnessman who stored explosives in his safe!
Reply:Yeah,I probably should have described it a little better.  Imagine a premium gun safe with a $2 battleship grey finish and file cabinet drawers, instead of a door.  I'm going to give it a closer look at lunch today.  I want to tap the sides and top with a hammer to make sure it's not double-walled, with anything poured into the void, like concrete with carbide cubes or spheres.  Again, if it is like the others, it has a hardened face, and mild steel plate sides, bottom and top.  Punching the lock will probably not work.  I'm sure it has at least 1 relocker, which was activated by the manager who erroneously thought he could get into it.  I assume that's why the locksmith who has looked at it a few times has determined that it needed to be cut open.  The initial thought was that they would pay him to open it, replace the lock, and weld it back together.  I doubt they have seen his quote, but I'm guessing that they figured that they could open it to make absolutely sure it is empty, dump it, and buy a new one for close to the same.  With the help of your input, I think that I will first try to open the face around where the bolts engage the inside of the face with the plasma cutter.  I should be able to get at and sever the bolts with the angle grinder.  Of course, if that fails, I may tip it face up, and use the angle grinder like a can opener, and lop the top 3 inches off.  That way the face, lock works, bolts and drawers pull out as one piece.If I get the opportunity to do this, I will absolutely take pictures and keep ya'll posted on this thread.  Of course, it could be a month before they let me know what they plan on doing.Thanks again for the input,cricmanLast edited by cricman; 12-07-2007 at 11:53 AM.
Reply:good god man... what in the @#$% do you guys have in those things? what kind of documents require that kind of protection? hehehehe. oare you able to tell us without killing us after? if it's as big and bad as you describe (I don't doubt it), it'd probably be easier to start with a torch... try to get the cuts started in a known safe-spot... see what happens. if it can work, use the torch... if not, i still think the C4 and duct tape may be a little light for the job... take it one step at a time... get it home and try prying on stuff first.. see if a 2' crow bar and a 4' cheater pipe would do the trick... pound it into a crack with a sledge and try to bust it out with some sheer brute force... i prefer the idea of jsut dropping off the building's roof... it might crack the pavement tho.Later,Andy
Reply:Cricman,Can you get some pictures of the similar units to help us see what you're up against?
Reply:Originally Posted by cricmanThanks for the replies ya'll,I'm not so sure a hole saw or sawz-all will cut it; at least not the face.  When the locksmith came out, he drilled it in a strategic location, in a attempt to line up the wheels.  I wasn't there, but someone who was said that he went through 3 drill bits to get a hole in the face.  I suspect the face is more than mild steel.  It has a large piezo powered dial lock (I think its a Mosler) that is essentially busted off at the face, no thanks to an over-eager manager.  I don't have OA, but I do have a TD plasma cutter, and a 7" angle grinder.  I thought of just slicing it open with the grinder, but I don't want to spend a lot of time on it.  I just need to get it open, to either prove its empty, or to remove what's left inside.  I don't want to spend any money on this project, because its for free (I'm hoping to get the remnants.)It really (and practically for me) comes down to the plasma cutter, or a grinder with a cutoff disc.  I'm not too concerned about saving it as a file cabinet.  I'd just as soon gut the box, and weld on a face/door with a locking setup like a job box.cricman
Reply:The basic question remains unanswered:  will CO2 support the plasma and knock down any flames inside the safe caused by the sparks?WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:Originally Posted by 69 chevyThe basic question remains unanswered:  will CO2 support the plasma and knock down any flames inside the safe caused by the sparks?
Reply:I opened a fire safe up once with a fire axe and halligan tool, you could try that.  I wouldn't recommend it if you are planning on reusing the box afterwards....there wasn't much left when I got done with it, but the homeowner was able to recover her insurance papers in order to file a claim after her house burned!Contact me for any metal polishing needs you may have, my avatar is a pic of a standard, painted fire axe that I ground, sanded polished and buffed to a mirror finish.
Reply:Lets say we knew for sure that you could purge the inside of this thing and make it inert. Are there already holes to get the gas is/out? Is your plasma cutter going to be able to cut this thing?How is it built? Is it made from sheet? Can you see any obvious seams/welds that you could grind out?
Reply:Hey Ya'll,I had a chance to get a closer look at the safe after lunch.  quarter inch plate all around, including the drawer fronts, which again, I am certain are harder than the sides, top, and bottom.  Hammers or pry bars are out of the question.  I'm a big feller (6'1" x 260lbs) and fitness is requirement for my job.  There is no way in Hecuba that I would waste my time with a hammer of any size on this critter, since I am trying to save the bulk of it for myself.  There are no seams (whoever constructed this thing did a great job.) and the drawers fit very closely.  I would estimate a volume of about 9 cubic feet and an estimated empty weight of 450 pounds.As for punching the lock;  It is a Hamilton X-07, and punching what was left behind by the locksmith (only the dial shaft- bent at a 60 degree angle protruding through a quarter inch hole) will probably net zero gain.  As for purging (If I use plasma);  There are three holes, including a quarter inch hole, on the face of the upper drawer.  My thought was to tip her up, drawers up (easy fellers!), and purge it with CO2.  Since CO2 is denser than air, it would settle at the bottom, with anything else that might be combustable.  I would run a tube close to the bottom, and after filling it (tested by sealing all but one exit hole, and holding a flame near that sole exit to watch the bevaior of that flame) maintain a flow of about 2-3 cfm.As for what this thing is designed to secure;  Let's just say letter sized documents that need to be safe from prying eyes, and leave it at that.And for those that want to blow it up;  I would too, cuz I love me some explosions and pyrotechnics.  But, I need more safe storage for myself, so this is a chance to get 5/6th of a nice safe for a little sweat and a smattering (okay, a grain silo full) of profanity .  All I need to do is add a face and door (internal hinges of course.)I'll try to find something online that looks like what I'm dealing with.cricmanIf you want to use a plasma, just hold it at an angle and blow the corner edges off the top of the box, blowing all the sparks outside, rather than inside.
Reply:Be very careful cutting into a safe when you don't know 110% sure what could be in it!This happened last summer near here, http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=6714845>>> June 28,Williston, Vt. The explosion at Demag Riggers and Cranes in Williston that killed a worker was caused by powerful fireworks stored in a safe, police said. A. Boisvert, 20, was using a cutting torch Tuesday to open the industrial safe when it exploded.Williston Police Chief James Dimmick said he was able to trace the events leading to the blast. The trail started more than a decade ago. The safe had been in an abandoned shed in Winooski since at least the mid-1990s. The safe was locked, the owner of the safe didn't know the combination and didn't know what was in it.A man used the safe 10 to 15 years ago and stored M80s in it, Dimmick said. The man left the explosives in the safe when he moved.The owner of the property was doing renovations and wanted to get rid of the safe. Demag often moves safes, gains access to them and refurbishes or disposes of them. This particular safe was big, about 3-by-6-feet. Boisvert cut into the safe to gain access to it, unaware there were explosives inside. Sparks from the torch ignited the M80s, the safe exploded and he was killed instantly. Police are investigating the incident, but are treating it as an industrial accident. <<<<
Reply:That sucks, some 20 year old kid. probably all stoked about getting to cut open a safe.
Reply:That is sad. A good point that Alan N brought up.It's just about a repeat of the lesson that the old-time boxman in post 16 learned.Remember that saying, about being condemned to repeat the  history you don't study?Make a note: No cutting or welding of "mystery" containers.Last edited by denrep; 12-08-2007 at 02:36 PM.
Reply:Trust me,I have already considered all of the safety aspects.  This is no mystery safe from a shed, that has been passed down the line.  If there was even a remote chance of any kind of injury because of the contents, I wouldn't get close to it.  The file safe was emptied during an office move about a year ago, and at most, contains a single non-critical manila folder with a few pages of documents.  This file safe was in an office, and used to secure confidential documents.  I talk to the former primary user (the one who boogered up the lock to begin with) fairly frequently, and only he and 2 other managers had access to the safe.Thanks for your concern,cricman
Reply:Cricman, We trust you. Just some good general knowledge being shared.My vote goes to MicroZone's post #2; a thin slicing wheel, mounted in an angle grinder.
Reply:Man, all this sweat over something so simple.  If that locksmith can't open it, then he is just a 'smith'.  What you do is get a key that fits in the lock all the way.  Then, you cut all the notches to '9'.  You stick it in to the second to last pin, and while holding pressure on it like a tension tool, smack the key in with a screwdriver.  Sucker will turn like nothing and voila! your'e in.
Reply:Originally Posted by 3 weelin geezerMan, all this sweat over something so simple.  If that locksmith can't open it, then he is just a 'smith'.  What you do is get a key that fits in the lock all the way.  Then, you cut all the notches to '9'.  You stick it in to the second to last pin, and while holding pressure on it like a tension tool, smack the key in with a screwdriver.  Sucker will turn like nothing and voila! your'e in.
Reply:My father used to work for Diebold, and had some great stories about opening safes like this.  He once cleared out a 3 story building in minutes when he drilled a safe that was protected by cannisters of tear gas in the doors.Trust me, you don't know what you're doing.  Hardened plate steel, ball bearing layers, etc. are common on Mosler safes.  So are bolts around the entire perimeter of the door.  If the glass plate is broken, you're not going to get that relocker opened without cutting the door into many pieces.It's not all that common to have the cannisters, but if this one has them be very careful what you take a saw, torch, etc. to.  I have a Mosler safe that I'm using as a gun safe since the files were stripped out by my father and I.  He replaced the lock for me after drilling the old one (yes you need carbide drill bits and experience to know exactly where to drill, and even then there is some risk to drilling in the wrong place as the "correct" place changes- and since it was digital, good luck...)I wouldn't want to be in the same building if you're cutting it open with most of the methods you guys describe.Hobart Stickmate LX AC/DC, Millermatic 252 & 30A spoolgun, Thermal Arc 185 TIG, Miller BWESmith Oxy-AcBridgeport 2J , South Bend 42" 9AHusky 7.5 HP 22.3 CFM 80 gal compressor
Reply:Brett,AFAIK as soon as the relockers were tripped by the original forced entry attempt, the only way to get the unit open is destructively.  As in cut door into pieces and remove the pieces and the lock mechanism pieces as you go.  All you'll be left with is the shell of the cabinet minus the door(s), if you're lucky.Also, it's an electronic combination lock, so there isn't a lock cylinder to do the 'key-as-a-pick-and-try-to get-the-shear-line-to-line-up' attempt.     Which wouldn't work all that well for a higher-quality or higher-security lock anyway.It's also a real security cabinet/safe, and thus is a -little- bit tougher   to get into than a fire safe (usually just a glorified sheet metal box with some drywall pieces for fire resistance).  The fire safes will usually yield to a pry bar because they are soft and sloppy.  The security safe is neither.   Melt or burn out an entry.  At least parts of it are hardened or have hardened parts inside, so saws are probably a no-go and grinding would be slow and difficult when you run into those hard parts.And if you tried to go through the 'soft' bottom, what are you going to do about the multiple drawers in the way from the bottom to where the lock mechanism is?  The drawers aren't hardened or anything, but they are still in the way physically.
Reply:You need a key hole to bump a lock.......There is no lock, key hole, or dial.  The only part of the lock mechanism left is the small square shaft that is bent and does not turn very well, that protrudes from the face of the upper drawer.  There is no glass re-locker system, and definately no tear gas.  Just a well constructed 1/4" plate box, with no external hinges, and no visible seams.  It is a GSA level 5 type container.  It will require some level of destruction to open it.  The goal here is to minimize that level (Because I get the leftovers), and to attempt to preserve any documents (no, there isn't a hidden treasure inside), if there are any.  I've decided that the first stratgey will be to make some well placed cuts with a 7" angle grinder and thin cut-off wheels, to get at the bolts, and then sever the bolts, since I don't know exactly where the lock connects to the bolt handle.  That should free up the top drawer, and then the bottom drawer will follow.  If that doesn't work, then I will cut the face off with a plasma cutter, contents (paper folders) be damned!  Then the guts will pull (or be torn) out. Still no word on if and when this show down will happen, but I will post picks if and when it does.  If it does happen, I will try to post picks of what I turn it into when I get the remnants.Happy Holidays,cricman
Reply:Originally Posted by BrettIm with 3 Wheeler there.Lock Smiths open locks.Unless time or cost is a consideration  or you want to live out a fantasy as a jewel thief....(that actually appeals to me!  ) leave it to a pro the safe cant be as safe or worth as much as it is now after you take to it with a grinder....
Reply:show pics of the project
Reply:Originally Posted by 3 weelin geezerI am not joking here.  If it has a keyhole, it can be easily opened.  Watch:
Reply:Pix?.....
Reply:No pix yet.  Still waiting for the green light to do the deed.  I am going to guess that nothing will happen until the new year.  It's a low priority decision for the managers that are in charge of that 400+ pound albatross.  As soon as I get my grubby hands on it and move it to my workspace (a.k.a. the garage of doom), I'll post pictures.cricmanLast edited by cricman; 12-18-2007 at 04:05 PM.