CHEAP WELDERS: why ask us?

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Quality and service will be remembered long after cheap price is forgottenI read it here over and over; every single day.  It goes like this:  make me a recommendation for a cheap welder that can do whatever I want, but will only get used on occasion.  Examples would be truck frames and bumpers or 1\2" CR steel  flower trellis.  And by cheap, they mean less than the cost of the computer keyboard they're typing this on.You'll probably only need a triple bypass once in your life.  Did you go shopping for the cheapest surgeon?Your fiancee will only wear her wedding dress 1 day.  Did she buy it at Wallyworld to save $$$?You weigh 300 pounds, but you feel the need to clean out your second story rain gutters.  Did you buy the flimsiest, thinnest gauge aluminum ladder made?Did you buy the least expensive, "guaranteed-to-cause-brain-tumors" cellphone cause you don't use it that much?You just won free scuba diving lessons.  Did you ask the instructor to strap you in to the cheapest regulator and tank he had?Is a bullet resistant vest just as good as a bulletproof one?Who thinks their head is only worthy of a $10 motorcycle helmet?Do you ask the car salesman why all his models have so much horsepower, when you know you could get by with only a 5 horse Briggs & Stratton.  And who needs liquid cooled anyway?Who seeks out the lightest duty consumer products, rather than heavy duty?I thought the buying public railed against planned obsolescence?  Yet 99.5% of the newby questioners want advise on the cheapest, lightest duty, only good enough to barely get by, welder.  Why is that?  Does Hobart's WeldTalk have a direct link for these kinds of questioners to come to this forum?What draws these schmucks to a professional welder's forum and expects us to recommend bottom of the barrel equipment?  Professional means, after all, that all or part of your livelyhood depends on your skill, and the reliable electric arc welding machine that can accomplish your metal-joining task.C'mon, show of hands.  Speak up.  How many actual professional WeldingWeb members, bought and make their living using, the cheapest chinese-slave-labor made welding machines?  Anybody?    What other electrically-powered, industrial-type piece of equipment did you buy that you sought out the very cheapest available?  And by cheapest, I mean expressly designed, built and serviced to meet the lowest price point possible.  No other criteria was relevant.  By that I mean, putting a vinyl "arc welder" sticker on a metal cabinet with a transformer inside doesn't actually mean that you can arc weld with it.  Get my drift?
Reply:ROFLMFAO!!!!I feel your pain, 69 Chevy.  The first new welding machine I ever bought was about $2000, some 15 years ago, when I was in college, at a time when my annual income was probly less than $10,000.  Although I own many other welding machines now, I still have that first machine, still use it often it still works as good as it did when it was new and it's long since paid for itself.   Good tools last a lifetime.  Cheap junk gets sold at the yardsale or tossed at the dump, after occupying a dusty corner of the garage, having not been used for several years.(I do have to say though, the word 'smucks' was a little too much.  I would not have said that myself.)Last edited by DesertRider33; 01-25-2008 at 06:45 PM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:To the point and dead on !! I thought "schmucks" was quite fair and showed restraint. GIVE THAT MAN A GOLD STAR !!Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:69 chev is   right ON  ! Why do they have the gall to try to get us (pros) to recommend Junk that we wouldn't allow to be stored on our property ? We know that they're  trying to weld with toasters . I sure won't sponsor any cheap junk. I wouldn't care if it's FREE, it's either good or  BAD , regardless of price.[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:I don't reply plain and simple.. Even though I do own a Harbor Freight Mig... ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:i keep Super-glue in my fridge for some things, and some nead together  putty also
Reply:Originally Posted by 69 chevyWhat draws these schmucks to a professional welder's forum and expects us to recommend bottom of the barrel equipment?  Professional means, after all, that all or part of your livelyhood depends on your skill, and the reliable electric arc welding machine that can accomplish your metal-joining task.C'mon, show of hands.  Speak up.  How many actual professional WeldingWeb members, bought and make their living using, the cheapest chinese-slave-labor made welding machines?  Anybody?
Reply:I just remembered working in a timber mill on week ends as a kid and from what I got I bought a electric drill.I was so proud of that drill !!! I was going to single handedly build a city!I didn't need some pompous Professional Builder telling me  it was a piece of junk.(and it was)A good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:Originally Posted by BrettWhat is the alternative for people who cannot justify or have the resources to pay a lot of money for a pastime ?Not weld at all?
Reply:69chevy you shouldn'y hold back your feelings like that, you should actually express yourself better!!hahaha laughing my a$$ off, you said it brother, if they are wanting something cheap go to wally world, and if they want it done right with a good machine bring it to a proffessional weldor.i agree it is a tool investment and i try to buy as good as possible, but if they only plan on very little usage they could try renting.G3miller... 225g, s32p, 250x, 304, 12vs, MSW41     victor o/a thermal dynamics cutmaster 50 lenco panel spotter        hobart hf-boxG3 Farms.....raising cattle, hay, kids and hell, ...oh yeah I'm a fire sprinkler contractor by trade.
Reply:Originally Posted by BrettI just remembered working in a timber mill on week ends as a kid and from what I got I bought a electric drill.I was so proud of that drill !!! I was going to single handedly build a city!I didn't need some pompous Professional Builder telling me  it was a piece of junk.(and it was)
Reply:yeah me too, i worked during the summers growing veggies (3 acres of sweet corn, 100-150 tomato plants, okra, peppers, beans) and selling them door to door (dad would drive and i would knock on doors). after all was said and done dad would take back seed, fertilize and some gas money and the rest was mine. my first purchases were craftsman hand tools to mechanic with, still have them today.G3miller... 225g, s32p, 250x, 304, 12vs, MSW41     victor o/a thermal dynamics cutmaster 50 lenco panel spotter        hobart hf-boxG3 Farms.....raising cattle, hay, kids and hell, ...oh yeah I'm a fire sprinkler contractor by trade.
Reply:I hear what your saying Olddad and the same applies here I guess.Second hand? Crikey! out of 6 welders at work 3 are new 3 second hand. Yes it is a viable alternative.In some ways my post was in response to a perceived aloofness or arrogance in the OP ( apologies if that was not the case or intent 69 chevy)A good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:Originally Posted by olddadAlternative---USEDThe problem is everyone wants things NOW !!What ever happened to saving for the things we want in life ??
Reply:I dare say a big difference in feeling on the subject may be because in Australia we don't have a recognized Aussie brand like you Yanks have with Miller Lincoln Hobart etc. and so our jobs prospects are not directly compromised.They are over here but really expensive , I often look with envy at the US prices and have seriously considered buying from over there direct. We do how ever have access to some high quality brands like Kemppi  SAF etc that are not often found there and parts would be an issue in a commercial application. I do however maintain that there is a place for cheap new welders as long as the marketing is not deceptive and the buyer is aware of what they are getting.BTW its Australia Day today over here , driving around today doing some quotes it was great to see a lot of flags about.A good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:Hi All,I am enjoying this thread. I have been thinking about this off and on ever since I joined this forum, and I have to say that I agree in part, and disagree in part. After analyzing myself, I would say my current system comes partly from experience, and is partly a family history thing. I have evolved into having in general, three levels of tools/equipment.Tier 1) This is equipment I have bought planning on using long-term, and that requires a high level of sophistication to actually work properly. I have bought, or would only buy high quality, top of the line brands names for this category, even if it means buying on credit or buying used. Examples:-Torque Wrench-Micrometer-Welder-Crescent Wrench-Multimeter-Welding Hood-Safety Gear-Car Jacks-Lathe-Mill-Allen Keys-Tap and Die Set-etc...Tier 2) This is equipment that I use a lot, but that might wear out over time and need to be replaced. It needs to function well, but does not have to be perfect, or exactly repeatable, time after time. Tools in this category I should be able to buy in one trip to town, and not be too depressed if it breaks down, or I lose one in the mud. I should be able to easily order parts if I have to repair one. I would say there is about a 50-50 mixture of domestic and off-shore in this category, but no junk. Examples-Screwdrivers-Air Compressor-Wrenches-Ratchets-Air tools-Clamps-Vice Grips-Grinder-Punches-Sand Blasting Cabinet-Jack Stands-Chisels-Drills/bits-etc....Tier 3) The tools/equipment in this category are the least complicated, and their usefulness comes from how they are used, not from how they are made. They are also cheaper, but they are NOT junk. They need to be cheap because I know I will be using them up, or losing them, or lending them out. 90% at least come from off-shore and I usually buy a lot of them so I can stash them around at different benches and not have to look to long for them. Examples:-Bench brushes-Brooms/Dustpans-Wire Brushes-Hammers-Pry bars-Chalk/Markers-Scrapers-Rubber Mats-etc...All that being said, I support my family with my tools and equipment, and I can understand why those who do not may want to cheap out somewhat on a welder. All I can suggest is to save money on the tools in tier 2 and tier 3, and spend a little more on those in tier 1-Ryan McEachern
Reply:Excellent post 69 Chebby! I think I said it earlier when "mr. longevity" touted that his welders do the same job for less than half the price. That's when I stated, "well, a Pinto and a Ferrari both do the same job but what would you rather have?"John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:69 Chevy....you call this a pro board...ok there "may" possibly be a few pros here......yes there are some who get payed for there work...this does not make them a pro.....I agree it gets aggravating some times to get the same questions over and over....if you don't like it don't read them...and if you do don't reply....I'm sure you didn't pop out of the docs hands and say mom I want a Linc SA and I'm headed to the pipe line....then I'll need a MM350P for some stuff around the house....we all have to start somewhere.....it's simple if you see a question being asked over and over again simply save a well thought out reply on your computer and cut and paste it when you see it again or ask zap to make it a sticky...not that hard for a pro now is it.....I guess I don't understand as I'm a simple hobbyist hack right?
Reply:Whats your problem son?Get it out in the open..BTWI can't make anything a "stickey"...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I didn't mean to offend anyone.  I just posted my opinion.  Opposing views, however misguided, are still tolerated.  I only posed a question;  it's for each individual to set the bar at what constitutes a real honest to God electric arc welder, or else is just a joke.   I thought everyone was like me.  I learned at a very young age, "You get what you pay for."  And in that vein, arc welding shouldn't be treated the same as auto refinishing, for instance.  You can't hurt anybody from orange peel in a fresh paint job.  But think of all the ways an inexperienced operator, coupled with an underpowered buzz box, can create an accident waiting to happen.  Don't take this as uppity:  I don't know any welding heros.  Somebody like Norm Abrams, carpenter extraordinaire of This Old House fame.  Perhaps the closest TV welders would be the Tuttles of Orange County Choppers.  If you happened to rub shoulders with these guys, would you expect them to know the answer to:  hey, what's the cheapest (fill in the blank) that will still do the same job you guys do?  They're all professionals and I haven't seen any HF (just as a for instance!) tools in their shops.  Do ya think old man Paul would weld up his next custom with a HF welder if they sponsored one for free?  My wild a$$ed guess would be, NO!Professionals have standards.  I took the Welder's Pledge to never knowingly make a bad weld ~30 years ago from Lincoln Electric.  Some of the brightly colored metal boxes with "arc welder" stickers are just not capable of making sound welds.  The way I look at it, how can you tell if you're making a bad weld, if you'd never made a sound one because the machine won't allow it?  You can shrug your shoulders at orange peel and say, "Good enough."  It's a shame if you look at a bubblegum weld and say the same thing.Last edited by 69 chevy; 01-25-2008 at 09:42 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by 84zmike69 Chevy....you call this a pro board...ok there "may" possibly be a few pros here......yes there are some who get payed for there work...this does not make them a pro........I guess I don't understand as I'm a simple hobbyist hack right?
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterWhats your problem son?Get it out in the open..BTWI can't make anything a "stickey"...zap!
Reply:I'll end it here.....we just don't see eye to eye....as far as my comment about pros here...I don't know you all so if the flip flops fit then wear them
Reply:Bottom line, some people are cheap! They just don't understand that the $100 MIG is a P.O.S. because they have never used a good quality unit.  Anyone that uses quality tools can't stand using crappy ones!!!  And this is not limited to expensive things, I went to use a friends skill saw to cut a 2x4, and I though the gaurd was jaming and hitting the board, WRONG!  The blade was so dull that I could NOT push it through a PT 2x4!!! I asked; what did you last cut with this?"Cement board, but it still works..."How about a new blade that cuts wood?"oh, there expensive."What?!! I went and got a new blade for him! ($7.00~)Me!
Reply:Mike..Nobody is taking jabs at nobody.. 69 May be "to the point" but take it with a "grain of salt"(I'm getting there.. )Let it slide..And '69...The newbees need a chance also..Lets try to keep that in mind.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.Zap, It's Friday nite, I'm desperate and dateless.  What did you expect, good humor?
Reply:I agree with what you say '69A case in point Years ago when I was first dabbling with increasing our product range to include Stainless I bought a small vert/horizontal band saw similar to what I often see proudly displayed on this forum, for what I needed it for it was a piece of CRAP!,new about 250.00Later I got a good on a Startrite British job, second had 2,500.00About a year ago I cut it back and clamped . I didnt have room for a vert. band saw bit needed a real little on that didn't take room but to trim small pieces of ally without cutting my fingers off , it is now worth its weight in gold.But on the other hand I got a very cheap radial arm drill , small holes in ally butt in long stuff .See set up its unreal, but not a replacement for my mill/drill press.PS here are some of the welders I m so proud of. Attached ImagesA good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:Originally Posted by 69 chevyZap, It's Friday nite, I'm desperate and dateless.  What did you expect, good humor?
Reply:if it is a tool that i make a living with i buy the best i can get.  some of my hobbies over lap with my business and i can take those tools off my taxes as well, but the plasma cutter i am looking at is chinese made and cheap.  i have researched and talked to people that have them.  no i am not going to spend 1500 bucks on a plasma cutter when i am not going to make a living with it.  at most i may use it a couple of times a week.  sure in a year i may wish i had spent the bigger bucks, i'll just have to see.
Reply:You know it would be a good Chapter to have on this board:People writing reviews on welders they have bought , talking about price, rate of use , reliability and appropriateness of intended purpose.Guess it would make the Mods a lot of work weeding out the sellers with ulterior motives.???Edit: spellingA good guess is better than a bad measurement
Reply:Originally Posted by BrettYou know it would be a good Chapter to have on this board:People writing reviews on welders they have bought , talking about price, rate of use , reliability and appropriateness of intended purpose.Guess it would make the Mods a lot of work weeding out the sellers with ulterior motives.???Edit: spelling
Reply:There must be motorheads in this crowd?  Name one piece of speed equipment that cost $100 in 1966 that costs less now?I got savvy with welding in '66 with a $90 (with Sears employee discount) Craftman 230V 230A AC buzzbox.  Everybody in this neck of the woods started with similar amperage AC machines.  Don't kid yourself, 230 amps is a lot.  And, it's a lot easier to gain experience under the hood with that much power.  But nowadays, these newbies still expect to only pay $90.  Well, you can't get 230 amps for $90 anymore.  (Oh yeah, I heard THAT was Bush's fault, too.)I don't recall anyone thinking that 230 amps AC was overpowered in '66.  Or that only the well-to-do could afford them.  This WAS the welding 101 starter kit.And that's the way it still should be.  If you can't pay the piper for a proper machine, then don't weld.  Bolt it, glue it, or pay a professional to weld it properly.Concerning Home Depot's moto, "You can do it, we can help?"  They hold basic plumbing classes.  Do they also hold arc welding classes?  I didn't think so.  Why is that?  Maybe because some tasks are over Joe Schmuck's head.  You know Joe.  The guy who calls the  oil burner tech to clean soot out of his furnace, yet feels he's somehow less of a man if he can't fuse steel with an electric arc welder.  Forgive me for ranting; it's just my nature.Last edited by 69 chevy; 01-25-2008 at 10:54 PM.
Reply:What ever happened to saving for the things we want in life ??
Reply:Originally Posted by 69 chevyZap, It's Friday nite, I'm desperate and dateless.  What did you expect, good humor?
Reply:Wish I could, mate.  Enjoy your holiday.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterNot a bad idea actually.....zap!
Reply:I have a cheap welder. Got it on sale for $599.00. It's the retail version of the Lincoln 180 T. Same, except for the plastic housing on the drive. I then bought a cheap, matching spool gun. $ 154 at Bakergas. They claim that they will fix er' up for 3 full years. Not much more money than an import!
Reply:Oh yeah, I wanted to add a comment to all you Pros. I live and work in the Canadian Oil Patch. I am surrounded by B Pressure welders. Their welds look like they were made with a computerized machine. Every one is X-Rayed. Never seen a Millar on the back of a truck. Nothing but Lincolns. These guys can weld!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by WET RODOh yeah, I wanted to add a comment to all you Pros. I live and work in the Canadian Oil Patch. I am surrounded by B Pressure welders. Their welds look like they were made with a computerized machine. Every one is X-Rayed. Never seen a Millar on the back of a truck. Nothing but Lincolns. These guys can weld!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by WET RODOh yeah, I wanted to add a comment to all you Pros. I live and work in the Canadian Oil Patch. I am surrounded by B Pressure welders. Their welds look like they were made with a computerized machine. Every one is X-Rayed. Never seen a Millar on the back of a truck. Nothing but Lincolns. These guys can weld!!!
Reply:The guys with the Lincoln's just don't know any better DDA.  It's like when a bull views the red cape, he just runs to it.  I've used some Stinkin' Lincolns in my time, good machine but I prefer the old Blue.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:May I offer an alternative perspective?Please bear with me.We all use computers to access this board. I will suggest that there is a very large variance in the capabilities of each of these computers.I develop software for a living so I will speculate that the one I am currently using has much more disk space, ram and processor speed, etc. – and the associated price tag to go with it – than many of the others used to access this site. I also have several “lesser” systems that fulfill various roles in my work. And I suspect that is capability is not the norm for most of the board users.But if someone were to ask me “what should I get”, my initial response would not be “the same top shelf equipment that I use to earn a living”. My usual answer is a question - “what realistic goals are you attempting to achieve?” And based on the response we would move forward. Of course I sometimes get the “everything” response at which time I venture down the “how much money do you have?” or “how much skill do you have?” or “are you an idiot” path depending on my mood. But even the “you are an idiot” path has a “here are some things to avoid at all costs” clause – even if I do not believe they will comprehend, understand or even act in a positive manner based on this information. On those occasions where I get what I believe is a well thought out response I am gratified as it turns into a learning experience.So we have now reached the “so what the …. are you doing on this board” point.I lurk, and occasionally ask questions because there is a tremendous amount of information available to me in a domain that interests me – not professionally but as part of my non-professional life. If someone “in the profession” or “on the inside” suggests that something is totally unusable, I respect that advice. Likewise, if they suggest its realistic limitations – which are often different than the marketing limitations – I respect that. But other than asking, how am I to know.I am assuming most everyone on this board is here to both gather and disseminate knowledge. So maybe the original motivation for this discussion is not the intent of the questions but with the format of the question. And as such maybe the “canned response” to those questions should be “what realistic goals are you attempting to achieve?” Then see if things can move on from there. Maybe there is a non-professional cost effective solution to meet their needs – or even the ‘really good deal’ that would work.And just so there is at least some welding content to this message, I will suggest that even though my interest is non-professional, I do like quality equipment. I probably fall into the “more money than skill” area and have a reasonably well equipped non-professional garage – Lincoln PowerMig 300 – bought four weeks before the 350 came out – but I am not “in the industry” [nor does it appear is the LWS I bought it from] and I’m happy with it so what the heck, ESAB 875 plasma cutter, Oxweld two stage oxygen\acetylene setup, trying to decide which TIG unit to by – the Thermal Arc 185, Miller Dynasty 200DX or just say the heck with the kids inheritance and get the Miller Dynasty 350DX [see ‘you are an idiot’]. – with a water cooled torch. And the rest of the garage comes from anywhere between Harbor Freight to Snap-On depending on what it is.I thank you for your patience and knowledge and will now return to lurking and learning,Arvid
Reply:I was pretty excited when I found this site a few days ago. I figured I had found a new place to lurk and learn and maybe get a question answered now and then. My first impression was that there were some top professionals here that could offer information to someone of lesser talent and/or financial means. Now I'm not so sure. Is it because work is slow, moneys tight, cabin fever? Why can't you all just get along? To me, a professional isn't just someone who has mastered his trade, they are also someone that is willing and able to pass his knowledge and skill to others. Knowledge of the tools of that trade, gained through the years is,  or should be, another way that a professional can help newbies. So what if a guy can't run out and buy the best equipment. So what if a question has been asked and answered more than once. If someone asks a question obviously they don't know the answer. If you aren't big enough to share your knowledge with guys like me, then in my eyes, you AREN'T a professional. Some of you guys personalities came out strong here. It's no wonder you're sitting home alone on a Saturday night. I won't ask any questions here, I'll just lurk and learn from the real professionals that do live here. Sorry for the rant but this is happening on another site as well and I just came for the knowledge - not the BS.
Reply:Excuse me - Friday night
Reply:Originally Posted by arvidjMay I offer an alternative perspective?I thank you for your patience and knowledge and will now return to lurking and learning,Arvid
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterI/We appreciate your thoughts..Thank you.. More "points to ponder" for everyone.....zap!
Reply:A lot of the 'what cheap welder should I buy" questions have already been answered.  The search option is a handy one.Myself, I have an OLD Hobard TR250, a Dynasty 200dx, and if i need heavy artillery an SA200 Lincoln.  Well, the SA isn't mine, but I can use it any time I need to.  Do I weld for a living?  No.  To me, it's a hobby.  I wanted the best equipment money could buy, so I picked up the 200dx.  (not trying to plug here...)  Never done TIG before, so I didn't want to learn on poor equipment.
Reply:Originally Posted by mr billI was pretty excited when I found this site a few days ago. I figured I had found a new place to lurk and learn and maybe get a question answered now and then. My first impression was that there were some top professionals here that could offer information to someone of lesser talent and/or financial means. Now I'm not so sure. Is it because work is slow, moneys tight, cabin fever? Why can't you all just get along? To me, a professional isn't just someone who has mastered his trade, they are also someone that is willing and able to pass his knowledge and skill to others. Knowledge of the tools of that trade, gained through the years is,  or should be, another way that a professional can help newbies. So what if a guy can't run out and buy the best equipment. So what if a question has been asked and answered more than once. If someone asks a question obviously they don't know the answer. If you aren't big enough to share your knowledge with guys like me, then in my eyes, you AREN'T a professional. Some of you guys personalities came out strong here. It's no wonder you're sitting home alone on a Saturday night. I won't ask any questions here, I'll just lurk and learn from the real professionals that do live here. Sorry for the rant but this is happening on another site as well and I just came for the knowledge - not the BS.
Reply:I'm with you guys. Stupid questions should not be allowed to be posted. We need one of those filter things so if you ask a stupid question it shows only asterisks. That way we know who asked the stupid question and we can ridicule them with out the hassle of having to read it. We also need a filter so if your welder cost under a certain amount of money you can't post at all. This will alleviate some of the drivel on this forum. Kinda like this thread!!Thats what gets me about you true professionals. If someones question isn't up to your sky high expectations don't click on it. It works well for me. Not to sure how I got sucked into this one.Just so you know, I don't have any cheap welders. Don't even own a welder. Thats why you don't see a post by me on the "Recommend me a cheap welder thread". You should try it.
Reply:While I can't speak for anyone else, I have a reputation to uphold...being the "Resident Curmudgeon" is serious work !!Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT