Some questions concerning underwater welding

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Hi everyone, I researched some activities underwater welders do and I had some questions I wanted to askSome concerns I had were:How do you guys maintain balance or keep yourself from being blown away by water current? Do you find it a need to enhance working efficiently? If not, what do you think is?Is it a hassle to put on the diving equipment before going diving?When working with sewers, doesn't your vision get compromised by the muddiness of the water? What do you do when you find yourself in this situation?A worker told me they use regular halogen light bulbs for diving. Surely is there a better light (LED?) that can help better.Is it a challenge to swim back up after with the weights carried? What if you can pull yourself up, like from the tethered cords?Why is the welding lens helmet separate from the helmet? Can it not just be one instead?Is there anything you noticed while working that could be improved on? What inspired this action?What is needed that should be readily available?I noticed on a broco stinger, the trigger is  located on the bottom of the design? Is the reason to reduce human fault?I also noticed in some videos that welders get up extremely close to welding, as well using two hands? Why is it that they do that?I hope to hear from you guys, Thank you.
Reply:I've worked around several divers in the past. I can answer some of your questions. Some divers have told me they use ropes to hold them in place when needed.Tenders always help the diver get dressed and undressed.The divers I worked around had a one man basket, that was raised and lowered with a winch. This helps with staging the diver on the way back up. We had divers working at 220-feet deep on gas, it would take hours to get them back to the surface, then about 8-hours in the chamber.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I'll try a few, Putting on equipment or suits (called diving dress ) often requires help from a tender , Diver visability is often limited by muddy water not just in sewers ,This is not sport diving in pristine water.The borco trigger as you call it is a thermal lance  for cutting. the welding lens is a cover lens for the helmet windows  ,and you can not take it off and switch helmets ouder water. A Desco air hat or dives systems international  Superlite 27 cost several thousand dollars and most time the diver owns it, the welding is just part of the job . If you are afraid of the TOE MONSTER commercial diving is not for you.  Watch the Movie Men Of Honor  to get a look at what some of it is like.
Reply:In sport diving, LED's have just about replaces halogen systems, primarily due to longer burn times on battery power. Down side is LED's still don't put out the light output a good halogen system can at the same cost, and LED's usually produce a very diffuse light. You really need a tight beam to punch thru the back scatter. Reflector technology on LED's is improving though to combat this all the time. HID lighting replaced most halogen systems. It's a good compromise between power usage and light quantity. HID's like halogen systems are easy to get the reflectors to work to accomplish what you need them to do.As far as staying in place or swimming, you have to understand buoyancy. Underwater to swim, you want to be a neutrally buoyant as possible so it's easy to swim or maintain a given depth. If working on the bottom, added weight makes it easier to stay in place. To get the best of both worlds, divers use added air to increase their buoyancy. Typically this is done by adding air to their suit or buoyancy control device so they can be heavy or buoyant as needed. As mentioned commercial divers often use platforms to control and maintain depth in open water when they need to work at deep depths.As far as viability, you simply learn to work by feel most times. The scene in Men of Honor where he has to take his test, the water clarity as absolutely wonderful compared to many  commercial dives. We did one job where the HID light became completely invisible in 6" of water. No glow or anything, you'd think the light just went out. In some cases where we had really bad interior conditions and the diver needed to work like on one barge job we did, we had 2 2 1/2" fire hoses blowing clean water down in from of the diver and a 4" pump trying to suck out the "bad" water. This gave him semi visibility for about 12" around where he needed to work.If the lever on a brocco torch was at the top, it would be in the way when changing rods. You need to grab the top of the torch to rotate the ring to loosen and replace the old rod. If the handle was up there, it would be in your way possibly when grabbing the torch in zero vis..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:In sport diving, LED's have just about replaces halogen systems, primarily due to longer burn times on battery power. Down side is LED's still don't put out the light output a good halogen system can at the same cost, and LED's usually produce a very diffuse light. You really need a tight beam to punch thru the back scatter. Reflector technology on LED's is improving though to combat this all the time. HID lighting replaced most halogen systems. It's a good compromise between power usage and light quantity. HID's like halogen systems are easy to get the reflectors to work to accomplish what you need them to do.As far as staying in place or swimming, you have to understand buoyancy. Underwater to swim, you want to be a neutrally buoyant as possible so it's easy to swim or maintain a given depth. If working on the bottom, added weight makes it easier to stay in place. To get the best of both worlds, divers use added air to increase their buoyancy. Typically this is done by adding air to their suit or buoyancy control device so they can be heavy or buoyant as needed. As mentioned commercial divers often use platforms to control and maintain depth in open water when they need to work at deep depths.As far as viability, you simply learn to work by feel most times. The scene in Men of Honor where he has to take his test, the water clarity as absolutely wonderful compared to many  commercial dives. We did one job where the HID light became completely invisible in 6" of water. No glow or anything, you'd think the light just went out. In some cases where we had really bad interior conditions and the diver needed to work like on one barge job we did, we had 2 2 1/2" fire hoses blowing clean water down in from of the diver and a 4" pump trying to suck out the "bad" water. This gave him semi visibility for about 12" around where he needed to work.If the lever on a brocco torch was at the top, it would be in the way when changing rods. You need to grab the top of the torch to rotate the ring to loosen and replace the old rod. If the handle was up there, it would be in your way possibly when grabbing the torch in zero vis..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:A friend of mine was on a dive job in Mexico. Bolting the flange on a vertical pipe. Used ropes with spliced eyes, one eye over a bolt head the other as a stirrup. He said he was in his own world just wrenching away. All of a sudden this huge grouper fish swim around from the back side of the pipe. He said the eye on the fish was about the size of a platter. Scared the he!! out of him. He fell backwards, one foot went through the rope stirrup. Now he's hanging upside down, and just knows this fish is going to eat him. He's screaming like a little girl, the whole time his tender is on the intercom trying to tell him these grouper fish are harmless, and he is OK, to calm down!Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I like to swim, and have always had an interest in commercial diving/welding jobs...but big fish really do terrify me x)Miller Spoolmate 200 w/t S-52 WirefeederMM 211'09 Miller Trailblazer 302
Reply:The Grouper in the gulf are almost mythical . It seem, that the only people who see them are oil patch divers. Heard a story about 50 years ago,when I first learned to dive about some divers in a bell down deep in the gulf.  A big grouper took and interest in them and the bell ,scared the crap out of the two divers  ,They had to wench them up and put them in the chamber.Another sea story about a sea turtle bothering the divers on a pipeline  until they feed it , seems they had to catch a couple lobsters  and feed him before he would let them alone .Marine biologist got wind of it and came to investigate , to make sure the divers weren't abusing the sea turtles , last they saw of them was the turtle chasing them back to Florida nipping at them.
Reply:Oh and don't forget the Giant Squid!!!
Reply:Wow, really interesting stories! I never knew how much marine life love to mess with you on the job, haha. Aren't there anything more mechanical that would be better than ropes? I wonder if there is anything assist you down there because you are carrying a lot of tools down there too, right? What do you guys usually carry with you when you go underwater?What do you think could help improve efficiency in your work environment? Thanks for answering, they're really informative!
Reply:I was wondering about underwater inspection on pipeline, is that also part of the job as a welder? I seen on videos robots inspecting, but what is it that they're checking for? How did divers use it before compared to today?
Reply:Do you also think being able to mount on to the pipeline  to weld would be the most important activity?
Reply:Very little welding actually takes place underwater. It's extremely costly to put a diver in the water to weld and the welds are generally 2nd best. The vast majority of welds are done top side, then things are assembled underwater with bolts if need be. There is a fair amount of underwater cutting done to remove old hardware. It's simply faster to cut the old bolts than it is to try and loosen rusty corroded ones.Underwater welding gets a lot of hype. It's flashy and looks "cool" but isn't done all that much. It's sort of like demolition. Lots of people think of implosions and using explosives to demolish buildings because it gets lots of air time on TV. You don't often just see the guys knocking down buildings with loaders or track hoes with claws. I'd bet you easily 1000 buildings if not more get demoed for every implosion, but you just don't usually hear much about it.As far as tools, you take the minimum with you. you really don't have a spot for a full tool box. If you need something else, they'll send it down to you. Keep in mind most times you don't have any place to lay things down. You can tie off a tool so you can use both hands on a job, but you really don't have space to 3 or 4 things. Also keep in mind chances are high you are doing all of this work by feel or in very limited visibility. Because of this tolls are kept to a minimum for ease and simplicity. You really can't sit there and try to figure out what wrench you need. Most times one wrench will fit every nut/bolt they are going to use even if those nuts and bolts are a lot larger than they regularly might need to be.Time is the big killer underwater. If doing deco diving, each minute underwater means several minutes added in decompression. The diver has to be monitored full time, even if he's doing nothing but deco. On top of the diver you usually have at least 3 guys in "support" of the diver. A supervisor, a tender, and a standby diver. Then you may have others standing by to run the chamber, medical personnel and so on. You simply can't waste time under water.As far as inspection, a lot of that work is being replaced by ROV's today. Again it's a man power thing. Rather than have a diver with a camera to film what the inspector needs to see, they can use an ROV. You then aren't limited by decompression time, depth and so on. In some cases it's still easier and cheaper to use divers, but with the cost of ROV's coming down and the issues with liability going up, more and more if they can use an ROV they will..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Three tools most divers use are Hammer ,prybar,wrench ,Titanium if you can find them other wise SS .
Reply:My first zero visibility working dive was on a pump intake structure for a power plant on a lake in TX.  The job was to run a air lift and suck out all the fine silt that had built up in the pump bays.   There were 4 seperate bays that we tagged out and did one at a time.   I knew I was going to have zero visability but what I hadn't anticipated was just how frigging loud it was going to be from the pumps still running in the adjacent bays.   I shinnied down the sucking lift hose, got to the bottom (about 30') and just froze up and was scared to move.  It sounded like there was an industrial strength garbage disposal running all around me.  It took me getting some re assurance from the radio operate that the pump in the bay I was in hadn't gotten energized and that all the noise was coming from adjacent bays and that it was physically impossible for me to accidently get over into those bays.  I'm guessing it took almost 5 minutes before I got my imagination (and breathing) under control and gathered up enough courage to reach out and try and find the wall and get myself oriented and get to work.   The fact that I'd spent the previous 2 hours tending another diver who went down first and started the job in that bay went a long way in providing me with the necessary peer pressure to keep me from *****-ing out and climbing immediately back to the surface.   On top of all that, being the new guy, the other more experienced guys decided to run the "mud eel" gag on me.   While I was tending the first diver I was close enough to the radio that I could clearly hear all that was being said.  The first diver kept saying stuff about there being hundreds of small eels coming out of the silt and slithering all over and around  him.  Every now and then he said some thing about one getting in his coveralls with him and that he had to stop and get it out.   They played this up to the hilt even telling me stuff like I didn't need to worry about them biting me because there teeth were so small they couldn't break the skin and that it was just more of a raspy feeling when one latch on to you.   These guys had pulled this joke before and were really good at selling it.   I fell for it hook, line and sinker.   I probably used a half roll of duct tape making sure the legs of my coveralls were secured to my boot tops (and the sleeves tight around my wrists) before getting in the water because I was worried about these eels.   I went in the water thinking I was going to be dealing with a slithering mass of eels while on the bottom.   The noise had me so scared at first that I totally forgot about the eels that were suppose to be down there and didn't think about them again until around a half hour later when the radio operator asked me "any trouble with the eels?"   And it was at this point where it started to slowly dawn on me just how thoroughly I'd been had.Last edited by HT2-4956; 11-14-2014 at 12:33 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by gxbxcThree tools most divers use are Hammer ,prybar,wrench ,Titanium if you can find them other wise SS .
Reply:Up and down the west coast divers are in the same union as I was. A lot of divers worked for me on derricks. One thing that always set me back. The majority of the divers I wouldn't send to the far end of the derrick to rig something by them selves. But I was suppose to send them underwater where I can't see what they are doing to rig something. Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956My first zero visibility working dive was on a pump intake structure for a power plant on a lake in TX.  The job was to run a air lift and suck out all the fine silt that had built up in the pump bays.   There were 4 seperate bays that we tagged out and did one at a time.   I knew I was going to have zero visability but what I hadn't anticipated was just how frigging loud it was going to be from the pumps still running in the adjacent bays.   I shinnied down the sucking lift hose, got to the bottom (about 30') and just froze up and was scared to move.  It sounded like there was an industrial strength garbage disposal running all around me.  It took me getting some re assurance from the radio operate that the pump in the bay I was in hadn't gotten energized and that all the noise was coming from adjacent bays and that it was physically impossible for me to accidently get over into those bays.  I'm guessing it took almost 5 minutes before I got my imagination (and breathing) under control and gathered up enough courage to reach out and try and find the wall and get myself oriented and get to work.   The fact that I'd spent the previous 2 hours tending another diver who went down first and started the job in that bay went a long way in providing me with the necessary peer pressure to keep me from *****-ing out and climbing immediately back to the surface.   On top of all that, being the new guy, the other more experienced guys decided to run the "mud eel" gag on me.   While I was tending the first diver I was close enough to the radio that I could clearly hear all that was being said.  The first diver kept saying stuff about there being hundreds of small eels coming out of the silt and slithering all over and around  him.  Every now and then he said some thing about one getting in his coveralls with him and that he had to stop and get it out.   They played this up to the hilt even telling me stuff like I didn't need to worry about them biting me because there teeth were so small they couldn't break the skin and that it was just more of a raspy feeling when one latch on to you.   These guys had pulled this joke before and were really good at selling it.   I fell for it hook, line and sinker.   I probably used a half roll of duct tape making sure the legs of my coveralls were secured to my boot tops (and the sleeves tight around my wrists) before getting in the water because I was worried about these eels.   I went in the water thinking I was going to be dealing with a slithering mass of eels while on the bottom.   The noise had me so scared at first that I totally forgot about the eels that were suppose to be down there and didn't think about them again until around a half hour later when the radio operator asked me "any trouble with the eels?"   And it was at this point where it started to slowly dawn on me just how thoroughly I'd been had.
Reply:Originally Posted by HT2-4956 what I hadn't anticipated was just how frigging loud it was going to be from the pumps still running in the adjacent bays.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPUp and down the west coast divers are in the same union as I was. A lot of divers worked for me on derricks. One thing that always set me back. The majority of the divers I wouldn't send to the far end of the derrick to rig something by them selves. But I was suppose to send them underwater where I can't see what they are doing to rig something.
Reply:Originally Posted by gxbxcWell they may have been pulling your leg about the eels ,but they do frequently get drawn into the water intakes , and then set stuck in the condenser water tubes . But about being sucked into another bay that is a valid fear  as all are inlets were cross connected by openings in the walls . We had a DIVER sucked through on night , He said he held on as long as he could then when his strength gave out he let go  he was lucky he was sucked into the equipment cooling pump chamber and not a big Circulater .They only have about 10 ft. of head pressure but move hundreds  of thousands of gallon per min.Have fun and live on the edge .You never miss living until you almost die.
Reply:This is all so interesting!What can commercial divers still do that robots cant just yet?I was wondering if such a manner can commercial divers can clamped themselves onto pipes, that way they don't get blown away from water current or constantly swimming. Generally how big in diameter are these pipes?I was told that operators control the power switch because it minimizes diver's risk. What are the thoughts of having a battery pack? Will it add too much risk to the workers?I thought of an idea if maybe there could be a similar version of a robotic weld arm for underwater that also clamps onto the pipe, it would need man operated underwater. Thoughts?Are there any product that could be improved upon on? A need to the niche?
Reply:It seems the umbilical cord is the important lifeline to commercial divers, I notice it's usually floating and it also is used as ladder to the surface because of the weight commercial divers carry. In any way does the cord float around become a nuisance? I even noticed there are 3 different colors tangled as 1. What do each of those color  cords do?
Reply:Umbilical is usually neutrally buoyant so  it really doesn't "float". Minimum is usually coms, air and a life line. You might also have a power cable for lights and possibly a video feed in the package if you are doing inspection work..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I remember one time working with divers. The divers were on gas, I had to stand right next to the intercom, because I flagged the crane with radio. So the diver would say on the intercom what he wanted the crane to do, and I would radio the crane operator. 90% of the time I couldn't understand what the diver was saying. This new diver from Alaska was making his first dive. He lost track of his umbilical cord, and set a 25-ton lifting frame on it. He ask why he wasn't getting any air. All the divers, and tenders on deck ran to the compressors. The diver said he was going to his bail out bottle. Couple tenders started suiting up the stand by diver to go get him. The dive superintendent looked at me and said come up on the load. I called it in, the diver relaxed and said he could breath now! That was an exciting few minutes!Are you sure you want to be a diver?Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400The umbilicals we used were made up of your main air hose, a communications cable and a smaller air hose called the pneumo hose.  The comm cable also served as the strength member of the bundle.   The pneumo hose was open ended (at the diver) and you had 2 to 3 foot extra of it that you wound up and tucked under your harness strap to keep it out of your way.  It was mostly used for keeping track of how deep you were.   When you hit the bottom the radio operator would turn the air on to it and you'd tell him when you saw (or felt) bubbles coming out of it.   He'd then shut the air off to it and a gauge on his console would measure how far the water would flow back up it and it would read how deep you were in feet.   We also used this hose to inflate air bags when trying to lift stuff that way.  In an emergency if something happened to the main air flow to your hat you could shove the end of it up under your neck dam and keep air in your hat that way (luckily never had to do that).We hardly ever just jumped in the water and fell to the bottom like you see in these movies or internet videos.  It may look sexy but it's mostly just a good way to get yourself hurt.   We usually had a ladder that went two or three rungs down into water that you crawled down.   Then the tender would then throw enough slack in the umbilical that you could grab on to it and slide down to the bottom in a controlled fashion.   When you were ready to come up the tender took a strain on the umbilical and you climbed up it hand over hand until you could grab the ladder.   Then you waited until he could gather in all the slack so you wouldn't get tangled in it when you were climbing the ladder.   He could also help you up the ladder by pulling on you some.Keeping track of your umbilical and which way it got run over, under, around and thru things was always kept in mind.  Having to trace your umbilical back and unsnag it from something happened often.  When I got to where I was going to be working I always called to have all my slack taken up until I felt the tug and then asked for 2  or 3 foot back.    For got to do this once when burning and had a good sized piece of a fractured concrete collum fall across my umbilical when I got thru the last rebar.   The spiral wire holding all the chunks together was to big for my side cutters to get thru and they had to send a pair of bolt cutters down so I could cut myself free of it.
Reply:So this one time I was a pretty good ways up a 3' diameter intake pipe full of silt.... I'd gotten to the point that my bail out bottle was jammed against the top of the pipe and I'd been digging my way forward for a while.   I was starting to get pretty anxious about where I was and stopped to consider what I should do.  I had the main valve on my air block cracked wide open trying to get a good flow of cool air.   I'd come to a complete stop and was seriously considering telling top side that I couldn't go any further....all of a sudden something just slammed into my hat and beat it's way down past me.   It scared the hell out of me so bad I'm sure I peed myself.  There was so much silt stirred up that it was like being in a glass of chocolate milk.  I had turned my helmet light off earlier (to save battery power) because it was doing absolutely nothing for me so I was in complete blackness and never saw anything of what hit me.   Best I can figure it was at least a 3' long catfish who'd been making his home up in this pipe.   I squeled so loud I got topside all panicked and they were asking me if I needed the stand by diver.   It took a few minutes but I got myself under controlled and backed my way out of the pipe (which probably took 10 minutes) and climbed my umbilical to the surface.   That was pretty much it for the day.   Spent the next 2 days working with another diver (mostly with us both in the water at the same time) running a suction lift to clear the silt out of this pipe so we could get to a gate valve further in.   We cleared a submerged log that was keeping the gate valve from closing all the way tight.
Reply:In clear water, where I can see what I'm doing, I can get thru a 2" rebar in 5 seconds with a Broco exothermic rod (90 psi on the O2).  In zero visability I've spent at least 5 minutes trying to cut one off at the mud line.   I've cut at least 800, 2" rebars off at depths running from 20 to 50 foot.   Most of those have been done 100% blind.   You don't need a flip down lens because at most you only get an occasional glimpse of a diffused orange light.   I've had the ends jump around 18" because of the stress on them.
Reply:Getting stuck in the head down position under water is not a good thing.   I don't care how good your neck dam fits your hat is eventually going to fill up with water.   The only hope you've got when being upside down is to be able to crack your main air valve all the way open and have a good supply of air from the surface.   If you've lost you're surface supply and are just on your bail out bottle you don't have much time before you're in serious trouble.   I've purposely been head down underwater in a SuperLite 17B to be able to crawl down in to a tight space.   I've had to have the air valve of the main block all the way wide open just to keep the water out of the hat.   The trouble with having your air block open to far is that it's so noisy that it blows out your comms and you  can't understand a thing that's being said to you  (or vice versa).   You end up having to make the choice between breathing or being able to communicate.Last edited by HT2-4956; 11-22-2014 at 02:18 AM.