Input on my Oxy-Acetylene Welding Please - M_P

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I had a few minutes to finally try out the WeldCam and it was a windy afternoon.  Still, I am pleased I got the chance to finally see what it would do.  I am generally consistent in what I do (of course, not quite as consistent, the day I choose to take a video of my welding), and I am consistently having the same problems, so I thought it was time to turn to the pro's...and that video would be the best way to do that.  I am definitely looking for feedback on the welding, but I am not sure you will see much in these videos.  I know you guys are going to want to know all the setup information, so here it is…  - Oxy-Acetylene Gas Welding- 1/8” X 6” mild steel test strips, edges ground to ‘shiny.’- Meco Midget torch- #4 Meco tip (N-4-TM from TM Technologies)- RG-45 copper-coated filler rod, 1/16”- Shade 5 Lens on the WeldCam (overcast day, late in the afternoon, sun behind the camera).Quick pic of the setup, with the WeldCam pointed at all the action…YouTube Video of Tacking…YouTube Video of Welding…The weld…The root…WELDCAM ISSUES:1. Difficult to see the details you need.  This was a shade 5.  I will likely increase the shade to an 8 or 10, so that you can see the weld puddle and weld techniques.2. The base of the bracket does not hold the camera still enough (I had it propped up on stuff, to keep it steady, this time).  I already have a design idea for the base.3. The camera records in HD, which probably is a bit of overkill for this (and takes a looong time to upload).  I have another camera I plan to try.  I will use the photography Neutral Density (think ‘sunglasses for cameras.’) and UV filters (remove light beyond the visible spectrum).WELDING ISSUES:1. Very windy day.  I need to rig up, or buy, a welding shield, since I normally weld outdoors.2. I was in a hurry, I haven’t welded in a couple of weeks, and it was the first time using the WeldCam.3. Penetration:  Seems to be a problem for me.  I get ‘almost all the way through,’ but not quite.  Any pointers here would be great.  I think it might mean I need to go to the next-higher tip size.  4. Sparkler show: There seem to be sparks coming off the flame, once I get moving.  I suspect this means the puddle is too hot, but I don’t know how to fix that.  Am I putting too much heat into the puddle (by having too cool of a flame/too little gas flow—and spending too much time at each spot)?  Or does that usually mean the flame is too hot?5. In case the size of the filler rod is an issue, I picked up the other two sizes stocked by my LWS, so now I have RG-45 rods in , 1/16”, 3/32”, & 1/8”.  My understanding of filler rods is this:  a. Thinner rods for thinner material, thicker rods for thicker material.    b. If you use too thick of a rod, it cools the puddle too quickly and you have to ‘restart’ the puddle every time you dip.  If you use too thin of a rod (I don’t know what happens—I suspect you burn through rod too fast and you don’t get penetration).  c. You need to use a rod which is made of the correct material for what you are joining.  d. You should leave the tip of the welding rod in the outer edge of the outer flame, to preheat and be ready to dip.  e. You don’t actually dip the rod into the puddle, you dip it into the heat cone and a drop of metal forms and drops into the puddle.  f. It is best if you dip the rod in the front of the puddle, while the torch tip moves away from the front of the puddle.  g. As you end a weld at the end of a piece of metal, you may need to dip the rod a few extra times, to prevent a depression in the end of the weld.So, overall, definitely looking for input.  Primary two issues: 1. Weld penetration, 2. Shower of sparks while welding.Thanks!Kev.Kevin / Machine_Punk from The Aerodrome Studio - Lincoln PowerMIG 210 MP - Meco N Midget w/custom welding station - Vintage Victor 100Current Projects: The Aerodrome Studio
Reply:Some of this is asking for pointers and some is like a how to do it text.Is that even a welding tip?  The little short harris ones like that are called brazing tips the welding tips are not the little short screw on kind.You show like 45 seconds of yellow acetylene only flame in video 1 but don't seem particurlarly fussy about making sure you have the proper adjustment once you get the feather to go away.  Usually it takes a while for a steady state flow after making adjustments.Clearly you are too hot and perhaps oxidizing I am not a pro but have a few copies of the oxy acetylene handbook which I can tell you havn't read or forgot the part about not removing the rod from the shielding effects of the gas envelope.  I would say it should take a lot longer to get started to melting and keep the rod in the puddle and stir as per the manual not what you are doing.
Reply:item "e"Letting the torch melt the filler wire so drops fall on the plate is incorrect.  You do put the wire into the puddle.As proof of this - how would you weld vertical or overhead if you are letting drops fall to the plate?Your torch angle is too shallow.  Much of the heat bounces off the plate at shallow angles.Overall - nice attempt though Dave J.Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 03-06-2013 at 08:03 AM.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:You don't have to clamp up a sample like that if you just tack the far end of the seam before you weld across from the other side. Direct contact means the steel table absorbs heat and requires more to do the same job.  Also, it seems like pretty huge material for an experiment like that, unless you got scraps for free.  Also, no need to move the torch tip in such frantic circles.  Sometimes slow circles can make the bead look nice, but sometimes they are not needed at all.  They are definitely not needed until used for manipulating the shape of the puddle.  Before that you are just needlessly adding more heat to the material that is not contributing to the weld.  The extra heat and shallow penetration of o/a welding often causes problems, so you want to put the heat right where it goes and do the job as efficiently as possible.I agree with the others: torch angle too shallow and heat too high, for the way you are doing it.  The tip size might be ok if you moved through the weld more efficiently and added a lot more filler - probably with a thicker rod.  It looked like you jammed the tip of the filler rod against your body to adjust your grip on it - good way to poke holes in your clothing and get nasty burns.  That happens often enough by accident. You need to be aware of how hot that end is, while welding and afterwards - I've seen lots of people set things on fire/melt stuff with the filler rod when they put it down on a table.___________________________www.kevinwilbanks.comSmith AW series torch systemVictor 2-stage regulatorsWilbanks adjustable parrot vise standsHarbor Freight 6x48 belt sanderBeverly ShearMetabo, Bosch, Makita grinders
Reply:Originally Posted by fran...k.Some of this is asking for pointers and some is like a how to do it text.Is that even a welding tip?  The little short harris ones like that are called brazing tips the welding tips are not the little short screw on kind..
Reply:Hi Machine_Punk,RE: d. You should leave the tip of the welding rod in the outer edge of the outer flame, to preheat and be ready to dip.Wrong - get the rod out of there so it can cool.e. You don’t actually dip the rod into the puddle, you dip it into the heat cone and a drop of metal forms and drops into the puddle.Wrong - you dip the rod into the puddle.f. It is best if you dip the rod in the front of the puddle, while the torch tip moves away from the front of the puddle.Wrong - you dip into the last third of the puddle to cool the puddle.Here's some OX-ACET tricks from Nov 2010 course on butt and lapp JointsForehand technique- Torch in right hand pointed straight down, flame slightly inclined to left, the direction of welding- Trick #1: Neutral flame with inner cone almost touching the weldThis gives the highest temp but smallest puddle and permits faster movement of the small puddle to left - in the welding direction.Note: The strong tendancy of beginners is to keep the flame further back but this creates a bigger puddle that is more difficult to move along in the welding direction and has a tendancy to pop/explode.- Trick #2: Dab the rod into the last third of the puddle - not the leading edge (as you may have read) and withdraw the rod out of the flame.  This is a long dap technique.  Dabbing right into the last third of the puddle melts the rod fast and cools the puddle - preventing it from overheating and popping/exploding.  Withdrawwing the rod from the flame allows it to cool so that upon its next dab, it can cool the puddle.I hope that helps you! Rick V 1 Airco Heliwelder 3A/DDR3 CTC 70/90 amp Stick/Tig Inverters in Parallel1 Lincoln MIG PAK 151 Oxy-Acet
Reply:FRAN...K:  Thanks for taking a moment to post.  I can confirm that I have not read this welding handbook you mentioned.  I may have to go look up a copy...do you know the publisher/complete title?MINNESOTADAVE:  Thanks for the info on torch angle and the kind words.  I have only been OA welding for a short time...probably about 4 or 5 sessions.  The session I ended up videotaping was far from my best effort so far.  I've been very consistent before that.DRAAK: I'm not quite sure what you mean about the tacking...are you saying that I should tack one end of the coupons (sample strips in this case) and clamp the other end to start, or that I should tack the sample pieces to the welding table (just a large sheet of metal on a workmate in this case)?  The 'coupons' in this case seemed reasonable to me.  1/8" thick X 6" long X about 2" wide.  I didn't get them free, but I did get a 12-foot strip of the material at scrap prices.Hmmm...the video I watched (The Wall Mountain video on gas welding) used the circular motion all the time.  It did seem to make the bead wider.  I'll try just holding the torch steady, increasing the torch angle, and using a larger filler--it makes sense to me.I'm not sure I understand the "It's too hot." I get that the puddle is too hot and that is what is causing the sparkler show, but I don't have enough experience to know what too cool down (increase gas flow to cool the torch tip, or decrease the gas flow to decrease how hot the flame is, or drop a tip size to decrease how hot the flame is, or move the torch faster through the weld so there is less heat in the metal.  (or something else I haven't even thought of.)Thanks for the input!MAKOMAN 1860:Well-answered!  Thanks.- The N series of tips for the Meco torches are for welding with Oxy-Acetylene- The L series of tips for the Meco torches are for brazing (sharper inner cone) with Oxy-Acetylene.- The OX series of tips for the Meco torches are for welding with Oxy-Propane or Natural Gas.You can peruse the TMTechnologies for more information on using the Meco Midget.https://www.tinmantech.com/html/all_...lated.php#acetOh...and I will be more careful with the filler rod.  How do the pro's 'get a new grip' on the filler rod?  I've seen guys do something to make the rod stick to the material temporarily, then release it after getting a new grip, and moved on welding.RICK V:Thanks for those goodies--and taking the time to type out specific responses.  It does help.  TIme to get back out and practice again.ALL:Thanks for taking the time out of your day to watch the videos and help me out.KevKevin / Machine_Punk from The Aerodrome Studio - Lincoln PowerMIG 210 MP - Meco N Midget w/custom welding station - Vintage Victor 100Current Projects: The Aerodrome Studio
Reply:Rick, I tend to disagree on where to dip the filler. When welding up the thinner materials ( under .125" and especially tubing such as aircraft material ) I have found that using  the leading edge of the puddle for adding filler does a couple things.A) it allows me to concentrate on looking through the flame for puddle size and shapeB) tends to lead to more consistent bead form and penetrationC) Is almost unavoidable when doing 100% penetration pre-gapped welds (I.E. Keyhole)Now welding up heavier material, I can see your point. I have always taught the traditional welding method that uses a constant tip distance, and manipulating travel speed to control the puddle. Seems to work, produce excellent results, and is easily taught.Just for fun, check out some of these videos on gas welding from the EAA.http://www.eaavideo.org/channel.aspx...nts_tubefabricLast edited by makoman1860; 03-07-2013 at 11:54 PM.
Reply:I'm saying just weld the far end of the seam just a little, then start at the other side, no clamps needed.  Put your practice pieces up on top of two strips of other stock cross-ways and little heat will be wicked away by direct contact with solid material.  Solid contact wastes gas, damages clamps/tables, and changes the heat level, adding another variable to compensate for when welding material not contacting a heat sink.  I only o/a weld with direct brick/table contact when I have to, to square up the initial tacks of strict geometrical designs.  As for the material, why is it so wide and long?  My choice for this sort of exercise is little strips of flat bar or plate, maybe 1"x3" at most.  Figure out the butt weld, tent weld, t weld, deal with edges, etc.... lots of little exercises with analysis/feedback in between, little material wasted.  As for the circles, as I said, it's mostly cosmetic puddle shaping.  If that isn't happening, you want to zoom in and melt the steel as quickly and efficiently as possible.  If the puddle trail looks pointy, jagged, or irregular, then you may need more circles.  The main issue with what you have there is that the puddle should be raised, not indented, and penetrate.  The penetration is shallow with o/a and you may need to bevel edges, pre-gap, and/or weld both sides of seams.  Slice your samples in half with saw or cutoff wheel to see penetration.  Clamp one side in a vise and beat on the other with a hammer to test strength.  In my view, heat should be managed with tip size, which is why I favor the Smith AW series.  It has the largest number of tip increments on the small end of the scale, which means more heat control.  Some advocate fewer tips but changing heat level by turning gas levels up or down, but I find that the good, sustainable range for any given tip size is fairly narrow.  Above means the flame will easily go out, but at least doesn't hurt anything.  Below the tip's intended pressure causes the flame to recede into the tip, overheating, frequent clogging, even melting/deformation of the tip.  The optimum is about where the acetylene-only flame stops putting out soot, but does not jump away from the tip, then adjust the O to just neutral.  If it takes a long time to get a weld started, the tip is too small, if it seems like you are in a big hurry to speed through the weld to keep the metal from forming holes and valleys or otherwise disintegrating, the tip is too big .Last edited by Draak; 03-08-2013 at 01:20 AM.___________________________www.kevinwilbanks.comSmith AW series torch systemVictor 2-stage regulatorsWilbanks adjustable parrot vise standsHarbor Freight 6x48 belt sanderBeverly ShearMetabo, Bosch, Makita grinders
Reply:I've never used the Meco Midget, but the tip size you chose appears correct. The next thing you need to do is learn how to adjust the flame.  Your acetylene flow is too high and you have an oxidizing flame, which certainly accounts for the excess of sparks.   In the video, when you lit the torch, you increased acetylene flow until the flame separated from the tip . . . reduce the acetylene until it reattaches.  Next you added too much oxygen.  Open the oxygen valve until the feather just disappears . . . and no further . . . that is a neutral flame.  A neutral flame will have a lower temperature than the oxidizing flame you were using, and the reduced acetylene flow will reduce the total heat output, addressing Fran...k's "too hot" comment.As for penetration, with 1/8 inch material, the appropriate gap for a butt weld is 3/32 to 1/8 inch. A darker filter will only cause the camera to adjust the automatic exposure to compensate.  If your camera allows, adjust the exposure in the camera . . . try -2.  Additional light on the coupon will also help, reducing the contrast between the background and weld puddle.Make another video and show us the results.  Dynasty 300DXSmith He/Ar gas mixerMM350PHobart Handler 120Smith LW7, MW5, AW1A
Reply:I have better results "painting" the puddle with filler rod. That's where you just drag the rod across the top of the puddle to add filler and let the puddle pull it off instead of dipping it in the puddle.
Reply:Originally Posted by Machine_Punk..... How do the pro's 'get a new grip' on the filler rod?  I've seen guys do something to make the rod stick to the material temporarily, then release it after getting a new grip, and moved on welding.Kev
Reply:Originally Posted by dubl_tHey also, remember with gas you can't adjust your temp on the fly like you can with tig, but you can adjust your travel speed.  Seems like when you near the end of your weld material, your gonna need to go a little faster......or hold up on the flame.....just practice, you'll get it.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Yes its a welding tip. Replaceable tip ends have been used for welding since the early 1900's, and became especially popular durring the 1940's for production use. The Victor TE, Harris 1390 and Meco N style tips ( along with a literal host of others ) all date to the 1940's for welding all metals.
Reply:MAKOMAN 1860:  I'm on the EAA forum for videos all the time...hadn't even thought to check out their welding videos.  I am usually going there for sheet metal and riveting information.  DOH!DRAAK:  Thanks for the clarification.  I know it takes a while to type that much.  Your orginal comments make even more sense now.4SFED:  Thanks for the info on feathering the flame.  There are only a couple of videos out there which show it...and they aren't the best at describing exactly what is going on.  Don't worry...I'll definitely make more videos.  If you've ever seen my stuff on the other forum, you'll see that I like to show everything I do.  I was just making a couple of quick videos the other day.  Eventually, I want to make a set of videos, controlling for one variable at a time (weld the same piece with 1/16", then 3/32", then 1/8" filler--with all other variables the same, etc.), then get them posted for others to see the effects of different variables.JAMESYARBROUGH:  Interesting.  I'll have to give that a try, as I experiment more with the variables of gas welding.DUBL_T:  I'll have to get some more gloves.  I've seen folks do the thin aluminum sheet without gloves.I will have to see what adjustments that camera has...may not be able to use it.  I do have another camera, with more controls, for which I plan to get the neutral density filters to take welding videos.  You are probably right...the 'automatic' adjustments will likely not do well with the high-contrast situation.  I am working in 'full sun,' so it would be hard to get much more light on the subject.  I'll have to think more about the solution to that problem.  I really want to be able to get a good picture of what is going on with the weld puddle.Whatever will I make a welding screen holder out of?!?!  (0h, yeh...I'm a welder now...I'll weld one together).Thanks for the kind words!  I appreciate the help.ALL:I really appreciate all the valuable input!  I plan to make it to the 4-day welding class at TM Technologies this fall, but I wanted to get going before that.  Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to watch the videos and comment.I'll post more videos, as I have time to practice again.KevKevin / Machine_Punk from The Aerodrome Studio - Lincoln PowerMIG 210 MP - Meco N Midget w/custom welding station - Vintage Victor 100Current Projects: The Aerodrome Studio
Reply:Originally Posted by fran...k.I see that little kind of stuff in the vintage oxweld  catalogs identified as welding tip, however the harris 1390 tips seem always called brazing tips where the copper longer ones with a bend are called welding tips.  That is why I asked the question.  His flame aspect ratio width to length seems short for that size material compared to the stuff of various brands I have of the longer and bend design.
Reply:Originally Posted by Machine_PunkFRAN...K:  Thanks for taking a moment to post.  I can confirm that I have not read this welding handbook you mentioned.  I may have to go look up a copy...do you know the publisher/complete title?Kev
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Actually you can control the heat input, with torch angle. A change of 10 degrees in angle can change the heat input 15% or more. In welding 101 I have taught people to maintain a torch angle, and use speed to control the puddle. As they progress we add in torch angle as a control method along with travel speed.
Reply:Originally Posted by Machine_PunkYou must have been typing the same time as me!I am pretty new to this...it would be difficult to argue with real-life experience.  All I really know is that the TM Technologies catalog lists the Meco "N" tips as welding tips and the Meco "L" tips as brazing tips, with a longer cone.I do, however, notice that it is harder to get a 'sharp' inner cone with the Meco tips, compared to the Victor __-W-1 series welding tips, which I use in my Victor 100 torch.  Perhaps that is the tradeoff for mixing gases in the body of the torch (like Meco), instead of at the base of the tip (like Victor).Thanks for taking the time to post!Kev
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Dubl_T No...always maintain the inner cone distance. Pulling the torch back is a bad habit to get into.