Material Storage racks, need help with welds!

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Okay, so I finally got started on my material storage racks so that I can get my first ever shipment of steel up off the floor and build my bench.  I am going to bolt these brackets to a block wall and store my steel and some wood on them, steel down low wood up high.  I got all of the material cut and cleaned up in the weld areas and started welding away today.  After the second one I got frustrated and now I'm here for help.  While the welds aren't what I want them to be I think they will be fine for the intended purpose.  And yes for the safety police that is a wooden bench I'm welding on and I promise to get rid of it as soon as I get these cranked out and can build my bench .  My main problem is with the vertical up welds. If I weld them downhill they look fine, up hill they are drooping pretty bad and I'm moving across the center as quickly as possible.  I think my torch angle has something to do with it as I can't really get a push angle on this due to the geometry of everything once it is clamped up so that all of the brackets match each other.  My flat welds look pretty decent to me I'm pushing the puddle into the corner and then pulling it out to the edge.  Specs are 1.5x.25 angle welded to 1.0x.188 angle with my Hobart 210 mvp running 0.30 ER70S-6 and 80/20 @ 18 cu.ft/hr.  Voltage tap 6 and WFS 60 on 230 Volts which translates to around 500ipm and 23.5volts.  I'm doing both verticle welds first to try to minimize distorting the angle of the "shelves" in respect to the angle. I'm then pushing and pulling through the inside angle.  Then moving to the "top" of the shelf, pulling the puddle.  Lastly I weld the top of the 1.5" angle to the side of the 1" that you can't see or get to because of how I have it clamped.Picture 1: Full bottom of shelf viewPicture 2: top viewPicture 3: My clamping arrangement I have to fight around.Picture 4: bottom view looking down on the "sagging" that I can't get rid of.Picture 5: bottom view horizontal angle.  Sorry to be so long winded just trying to cover my bases so that I can get constructive feedback.  I actually stick weld much better than I mig due to taking a class this winter on stick welding but I really would rather mig these as I have to make 12 and all of the welds are so short that I would have to re-strike every rod 6-7 times and that's no fun.  Mig class wont be until this winter.  Unless someone wants to come teach me at the house, free beer  Attached ImagesHobart 210 MVPEverlast Power Pro 256Best money I ever spent was on a welding class  MTEC
Reply:Flag on the play- excessive use of clampstack the pieces in place, remove clamps, weld.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Vertical welds take a fair amount of skill and practice. You really need to know how to read the puddle, and you just aren't there yet.Work to your strengths right now. Set things up so you can weld flat all the time. Put a shim under the bracket and roll it to the side to do your "vertical" welds, then roll it back and do your "flat" welds if that is the order you want to do things in. To do a bunch in "production", I'd do all the "vertical" or "flat" welds 1st, then go back and do all the remaining welds.Personally I'd probably set up to do all the brackets laying on the side at 1st. To me it would simplify the layout/jigging process. I'd probably make a template out of plywood, and use that to set the angle on each arm, that or screw a couple of fixed blocks to the wooden table to align all the parts each time. Then I'd tack the top where the two meet to lock that in, then weld all the parts I can flat. Then pull and shift to the next bracket and repeat. Also a few small holes drilled in the arms/uprights would allow you to simply screw the parts down and do away with the bulky clamps. If nothing else, a few large fender washers and screws can be used to accomplish almost the same thing without drilling holes in the steel..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I have thought about doing all of the welds flat but really want to expand my abilities and therefore I figured I'd try to fight through this issue.  And I wouldn't use so many clamps if I didn't have to lol.  The "shelf" parts are designed to have a 10 degree angle so that material can't fall out/get knocked out on accident.  When I welded the first one several of them pulled and now none are exactly 10, some less some more so I figured the best way to deal with that is to clamp each additional to the first one and weld them out, let them cool and then remove the clamps.  Otherwise as I work down the wall if each is off none will be flat and that will drive me nuts.  So clamps it is.  I could role both pieces over on to its side though in order to make all of my welds in the flat position.Hobart 210 MVPEverlast Power Pro 256Best money I ever spent was on a welding class  MTEC
Reply:0.030 wire at ~500 ipm WFS and 23.5V and C20 is either into or almost into (high range globular transfer) spray mode.0.030 wire at ~500 ipm and 24V should be at about 160 amps and be in spray transfer (with 98-2 gas).C20 is usually not a spray mode gas though, so you are probably in globular transfer.You sure on those parameter values though?  Not the machine settings, but the volts/amps/WFS values.And you can't really do spray mode in any position other than flat (puddle is too fluid, ignoring pulsed-spray mode because you aren't doing that).Getting 'good' GMAW welds on 1/4 inch thick steel in short-circuit transfer is a bit 'iffy', especially with the 'smaller' diameter wires (0.030 wire in short-circuit mode pretty much can go from 60-140 amps and 14-17V, 0.035 wire in short-circuit mode from 90-160 amps and 15-19V).You don't have to fully melt the 1/4 inch thick pieces, but you do need to melt the 3/16 inch (0.188 inch) pieces and have enough overall heat to melt -into- the 1/4 inch thick pieces.0.030 wire is 'stretching' it a bit IMHO. (hey I -like- 0.030 wire for a lot of things, but it's not always the right size wire for everything).A lot of your welds (flat and vertical) are just piled on top of the base material.  Classic MIG cold welds, aka lack of fusion/penetration.Although you may want to use the MIG, there are times when it just isn't the right process to use (because of the material thickness).Turn the machine up a bit 'hotter', do the welds in the flat position, and push the weld puddle.  If there's slag, then drag.     aka SMAW and FCAW.corollary:  No slag, don't drag.  aka GMAWWatch the arc dig into the base material and the puddle fill-in the 'hole' the arc is making (generally you do NOT want to be watching the arc itself, but rather the puddle.  In this case, I think you need to watch the arc a little bit so you can see the parent material melting and then the puddle filling it in.)  In addition to the clamps to hold the pieces in the desired correct position and alignment, put in some tack welds.  It's sometimes amazing how much 'movement' the pieces can get from thermal effects during welding.  Clamps help, so do tack welds.  Use both.If you are better at stick welding, maybe get some 'skinny' sticks (3/32) and figure out a weld path that lets you run some longer beads without having to stop and restrike so much.  ex: tack the joint in place (as well as the clamps), then run the SMAW bead starting on the 'back' of the angle iron (top of the shelf arm), right around the outside 'edge', run towards the inside corner of the angle and then continue away from the corner and then run the vertical up portion.  That's about 4 inches of weld length with no restrike needed (unless you snuff the arc by accident, that is     ).  Go back and run the last 1.5 inch vertical-up bead (on the shelf arm).  One joint done, two arc starts.  Not too bad IMO.Or if you are really wanting to use wire and not stick, run some FCAW (Lincoln NR-211-MP in 0.035 diameter would be -plenty- for those material thicknesses).More than one to git 'er done.  Current way needs some work though.WVU would be a bit of a ride for me though.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Tack, remove clamps and then weld. Even if it's clamped and you let it cool the weld has still added tension to the joints so it'sll just move when you take the clamps off. You need to figure out the best weld order to prevent/reduce the deflection. clamping it wont help prevent the movement.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Your problem with distortion is just a fact of life with welding. I have been struggling through it myself lately. Any time you put in a bead, you are going to pull the joint in the direction of the bead as the weld cools. Tacking up beforehand helps, but doesn't eliminate the problem. You've hit upon one part of the solution, which is to choose your weld order to minimize pulling. When a particular piece is restrained to move in one way, but free to move in another way, weld up the restrained joints first so that you have additional resistance to movement in the "free" direction. Welding up joints so that opposite welds pull counter to each other is another approach, although I find that the second weld seldom exactly cancels out the first weld, for whatever reason. Minimizing heat input is key to minimizing warpage. Weld short beads and let the piece cool completely before continuing. This can sometimes make progress frustratingly slow. I do not find that leaving the piece clamped until it cools works. The tension has still been imparted to the structure of the metal, and the piece just moves as soon as the clamps are released.The bottom line, though, as I understand it, is that warpage is pretty much inevitable, and if you really want things to be straight, you need to start getting proficient at heat-bending. An oxy-fuel torch is the preferred method for doing this, but if you don't have one, you can accomplish the same thing by welding beads on the back side of the metal, in the direction you want to pull. For tubing, I find it useful to weld perpendicular to the length of the tubing, making sure to weld up onto the corners. The main down-side of this approach is that you end up having to grind off all the "truing" welds, which is a lot of work, and also messes up the nice flat surface of your piece (unless you're an artisan with a grinder).Everlast PA160-STH... and that's about it!
Reply:I should point out, if you use the same sequence, and the same settings on each piece it will make the distortion closer to a uniform patern. Meaning each peice should warp in a similar manor. Just means you're not bending in a bunch of different directions. but not perfect.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Good call on the 0.030 being borderline globular as I have played with MIG in globular and spray and if I don't watch my stick-out it does try to turn globular never thought of that being part of the problem.  I have some 0.035 on its way and may need to wait on it (also have some dual shield that we use at work coming, Lincoln 71M, although we use MUCH larger than 0.035 lol).  The only 0.035 I have right now is a little spool of flux cored that I don't care for but maybe I'll try it.  I am tacking after getting everything clamped up and that has helped.  Between that and welding things in the correct order this set of "shelves" is a near perfect match to the first one.  I'm not sure why the welds look a little cold on the pictures because I can definitely see the arc melting deep into the parent metal, maybe my green welding eyes are fooling me but I think I'm getting good penetration.  Also if it helps I ran one of these welds down and it turned out much better, but wasn't getting the penetration obviously.  I have a friend that welds a lot and is going to come over next week and see if he can help me get things right on this.  Until then I'm just going to do them all flat .Hobart 210 MVPEverlast Power Pro 256Best money I ever spent was on a welding class  MTEC
Reply:Okay so I got impatient waiting on supplies and my buddy and decided to try another today as even the terrible looking welds on the previous attempts seem to be plenty strong, they held my 200lbs so they should do what I need them to do.  This one IMO turned out 10 times better.  I laid everything on its side, welded the two welds that used to be vertical first, after placing 5 tacks on each joint.  Then I stood the bracket up-right and welded the open angle (push into corner, pull out to edge).  Next up I pushed from the edge back to my "verticle" on the opposite side.  Finally after all of the clamps were removed I welded the back side that can't be welded while clamped.  Just like last time the brackets line up great but this time the welds look much better.  What do you guys think and thanks for all of the pointers thus far, keep them coming.  Now you really can throw the two many clamps flag on me though  Attached ImagesHobart 210 MVPEverlast Power Pro 256Best money I ever spent was on a welding class  MTEC