Watching the puddle 7018 up

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First post and if this has been gone over please point me in that direction I have looked but not gotten a clear answer on this question.  I have read some of the posts on this from CEP and DSW (moderator)How to watch the puddle going Vert up with 7018 or any other rod for that matter.I am self taught and probably guilty of  not watching the puddle properly but when welding up all I am paying attention to is the rod and the puddle edge, because of this I leave some undercut (usually on the R side) on the cap pass (weave) some times and I know i should be seeing it but if I try to look under the rod than I am not watching where I am going.Miller Ideal arc HF (old like me) 7018 1/8" running stringers on angle iron and 3G test (3/8" plate beveled  45 deg combined 1/4" gap with backer) amps I cant tell you as my machine doesn't really seam to be correct but 110-120 amps approxAny tips or advice would be appreciatedLast edited by JPS; 03-08-2013 at 10:00 AM.
Reply:Open your eyes, works for me!I usually get comfortable, and watch the puddle straight on, looking very carefully to make sure im tying in both sides and keeping the rod the correct distance slightly angled up.Last edited by usmcruz; 03-08-2013 at 12:05 PM.
Reply:Try this video - and the part two.http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...ding-test.htmlDave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by JPSFirst post and if this has been gone over please point me in that direction I have looked but not gotten a clear answer on this question.  I have read some of the posts on this from CEP and DSW (moderator)How to watch the puddle going Vert up with 7018 or any other rod for that matter.I am self taught and probably guilty of  not watching the puddle properly but when welding up all I am paying attention to is the rod and the puddle edge, because of this I leave some undercut (usually on the R side) on the cap pass (weave) some times and I know i should be seeing it but if I try to look under the rod than I am not watching where I am going.Miller Ideal arc HF (old like me) 7018 1/8" running stringers on angle iron and 3G test (3/8" plate beveled  45 deg combined 1/4" gap with backer) amps I cant tell you as my machine doesn't really seam to be correct but 110-120 amps approxAny tips or advice would be appreciated
Reply:Post up picts of your welds so we can see them along with the info.."Seeing" the puddle is something only you can do. I can show students welds over and over, but until everything "clicks" and they have that "Ah Ha!" moment, there's nothing else I can really do to help. Some pick it up right away, and others take a lot longer.Undercut can come from several things. One being that you don't wait for the puddle to catch up to the arc as you pause on the side and start to swing back over. Another typical issue is rod angle. Typically if I see undercuting on only one side, the first thing I look at is the rod angle as the person welds as it usually means they are favoring one side more than the other. If your arc length is too long that can also cause undercutting, but that  with other issues usually show up at the same time..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks everybodyI have watched Jody's videos  some good points thereAs far as amps go I am just guessing, but I try to run about 5 amps hotter than just able to keep a rod lit, my old Diala- Arc seems to be off on the amp settings and no digital read out or Dc amp gauge to check it with.I was thinking maybe I was getting my head in to close so I switch helmets (one without the Cheater) and tried that without wearing my glasses this combo gives me a decent view but I really didn't see it any different from farther away.I will have to try and see  if I am favoring one side,I tried to really concentrate on the puddle but still find myself seeing it around the rod basically both sides as it comes up to the rod but not really seeing flow onto the parent metal but I am looking from the left side of the rod, sorry starting to talk to myself This picture is a coupon I ran after I practiced today I ran all weaves on this one and got a little to high in the center before my cap pass should have taken pics of the root and 2 other passes but didn't think of it until after I was done.Again 3/8 plate 45 deg bevel combined 1/8" 7018 Vert up,  top is left side of picture Attached ImagesLast edited by JPS; 03-08-2013 at 11:37 PM.
Reply:Undercutting on one side like that usually means you are favoring one side of the weld more than the other for some reason.1st thing I usually check on with students is to see where they are standing and if they can clearly see both sides of the joint. I'll often tend to have under cut on one side when I do demo's for students if I'm not paying enough attention, because I try to stand off to one side so the student can stand behind me and look at the weld as if they were running it. That means there's often one side of the joint I can't see as well as I should if I was standing where I normally would belong. 2nd reason is that they have their rod angle off. Rod should swing equally between one side and the other and be centered. Lots of times I'll see students swing say to the left and long arc the rod, and then when they swing right, they short arc the rod, because they have the rod too much to the right side of the center of the joint. This is easier to show some one than explain by typing. Undercut to the right side would make me think you might be left handed, and thus are favoring the left side more than the right and are long arcing on the right hand side.Your comment on running 5 amps hotter than minimum also sticks out some. I tend to find it harder to run cold than hot even though it seems backwards. More heat allows you to often see the puddle easier and have a bit more control. You can hold a tighter arc and not have to worry about snuffing it out and the puddle is a bit larger. Try turning up the amps a bit more and see if that helps. I wouldn't worry about exactly what the setting is. I have an old Thunderbolt that the pointer is messed up on. I set the machine roughly with the pointer, then dial it in on some scrap based on how the rod actually welds. It's not a whole lot different than what I do with a digital machine either. Most machine vary from one to another anyways. 10 or ever 15 amps one way or the other isn't a huge deal. Knowing roughly how many amps just lets us get an idea you are in the ball park for the rod size you are using and make sure you aren't trying to run 1/8" 7018 at something like 75 amps vs say around 125.One other thought. Not all 7018 is created equal. Some rods are easier to see the puddle with than others. I see this from time to time at the tech school when they've run out of rod and open up a new box. Some times they get donations of the good stuff, and other times it's what ever was cheapest when they needed to buy some more rod. It might pay to pick up some other brands of rod and see if that helps you see the puddle better.You might also take a minute and add your location to your User CP at the top left so we get an idea where you are located. You might find someone near by who can help you out..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSWThank you, for that great info I will try to figure out how I am positioned I am Right Handed but I am trying to watch from the Left side of the rod.Also the next time I run a coupon I will try stringers for my fill as i am still getting a crown in the center causing me to have more fill on each side running my cap.  I have been running my practice stringers from R to left to force myself to pay better attention to the R side.I don't get hung up on the Amp# it just always gets asked I will try a little hotter.  If I run the # on my welder it comes out to 150 or so and I know from experience that it is not correct. Its that way in any setting, A/C for Tig Alum or DC- for stick not sure why. So I always just set and practice on junk then run where it works. The Rods could be part of the problem (trying not to blame rods)  they are cheap Hobarts ($2 pr pnd) for practicing and I know they don't de-slag very well compared to say Lincolns I am in Central Mi my CP reflects that now, I have looked for  Weld Training in my area but the only thing I have found is the Local Community College and they are a Grand by the time you pay all the fees for an Independent study or 5K for the programThanks again  will post more pics today after I practice
Reply:I never understood the letting the puddle catch up to the arc, but when I cross the middle I see the puddle follow and it catches up instantly but I don't instantly move until I see the puddle expand and fill in, I guess this is what I am looking for. I ran a t-joint uphill in class the other day with some 7014 cause I was bored and is a intro class. The weld came out great with no undercut and nice even patterns.Found a decent videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=FBuscHRI9koLast edited by smilexelectric; 03-09-2013 at 04:11 PM.Miller Maxstar 200 SDPiperliner #10 Gold
Reply:7014 is one of my favorite rods - runs good, re-strikes good and does not need an ovenDave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave7014 is one of my favorite rods - runs good, re-strikes good and does not need an ovenDave J.
Reply:Now do the same thing with 7024.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPNow do the same thing with 7024.
Reply:It can be done, but you gotta be quick. If anything will teach you how to read the puddle, 7024 vertical up hill will! Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Didn't weld any 7018 today had to work on a Alum Fan so I had the Diala-arc set up for tig  and then felt like crap so went home.The above Lincoln video was pretty good but did anybody  catch that at 6 min in when he was welding his second pass they were showing the root pass again at least I think that's what I was seeing.Do any of you guys get your second pass that flat?  Maybe I am not holding the edge long enough, but have been letting the puddle surround the arc before I shoot across or at least I thought I was if not that will help fill in my undercut.I thought 7014 was a flat only rodThanks again or the input
Reply:Originally Posted by JPS thought 7014 was a flat only rod
Reply:Originally Posted by JPSDidn't weld any 7018 today had to work on a Alum Fan so I had the Diala-arc set up for tig  and then felt like crap so went home.The above Lincoln video was pretty good but did anybody  catch that at 6 min in when he was welding his second pass they were showing the root pass again at least I think that's what I was seeing.Do any of you guys get your second pass that flat?  Maybe I am not holding the edge long enough, but have been letting the puddle surround the arc before I shoot across or at least I thought I was if not that will help fill in my undercut.I thought 7014 was a flat only rodThanks again or the input
Reply:Originally Posted by JPSDo any of you guys get your second pass that flat?  Maybe I am not holding the edge long enough, but have been letting the puddle surround the arc before I shoot across or at least I thought I was if not that will help fill in my undercut.
Reply:Lot of things to look at and try Great Suggestions ThanksI practiced running weaves  on my practice brick for quite a while finally got zero'd in on the puddle, I could get them very flat and was happy with the progressI decided to run a test plate for the 3G and totally messed up the Root pass, so ground them down and continued and well it didn't go all that  well but I kept trying and grinding so I could at least make all my passes and see if I am getting anywhere.  Just need to keep practicing I think I gained 1 step forward and 2 back, I am happier with my cap so  some progress.  I think my pass below the cap was to high or I think I could have had it well in spec Less than 1/8" proud Attached Images
Reply:Lookin good - definitely see that your practice is paying off Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Was able to practice more today ran a bunch of stringers on a new piece of steel so it was flat from the start was able to keep it flatSo messing around I ran another test coupon and it went much better only ground my restart on my second pass other than that no grindingOn my cap I didn't quite get out of the groove in the first 1/2"  so after I finished running the cap I tried to weld in the area at the bottom but other than that I think it was in spec, my first restart was  shaky and I have a long way to go but I think it was close to passing VisualAgain thank you for the help I think every time I re-read your comments I pick up something else, I think the problem with the R side undercut was Rod angle as mentioned above, I am driving the rod tip under a bit so every time I see that happening I have to make a  effort to get 90 deg with the plate side to side, still seems like I hold the R side longer than the L, but whatever it takes. let me know if you see anything needed other than More PRACTICE Not the best picture Joe Attached ImagesLast edited by JPS; 03-20-2013 at 04:32 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by JPS I think every time I re-read your comments I pick up something else, I think the problem with the R side undercut was Rod angle as mentioned above, I am driving the rod tip under a bit so every time I see that happening I have to make a  effort to get 90 deg with the plate side to side, still seems like I hold the R side longer than the L, but whatever it takes.
Reply:Well I haven't given up but also been to busy to get were I need to be to test.Ran another test coupon last night while at the shop.Still not seeing the r side as well as i should still leaving a couple of undercutsAnyway just wanted to keep an update, thanks again for he help Attached Images
Reply:More heat helps make your cap smoother. When you get comfortable with your cap at a certain amperage, turn the amps up another 5-10 and nail it down with that.Faster across the center and pass longer on the sides.My first rod on the bottom of the cap pass I run hotter. The top or last rod on the cap pass I will turn the machine down 5 amps due to heat build up on the top of the plate.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Thanks that makes sense,  I have been letting the plate cool down to around 275 before I start my cap, I will try that tomorrow.I have a question:  If travel speed, arc length remain the same but the center of the weave is building up (maybe sagging) this would or could be caused by the temp rising in the plate.As suggested by  Snoeproe to turn down the amps as i get closer to the top of the cap passDoes anybody have any pictures of a completed 3g stick that they could post up.I think I have some help available next Saturday on this.  I know the more I practice the better it is getting but I also think I am somewhat stuck.Anyway thanks again for the helpJoe
Reply:I almost always find if the center is too high, you aren't moving fast enough side to side, or aren't pausing long enough on the edges. Travel speed, the distance you move along the joint is separate from this.Usually if the edges are washed in well, a tall center means you aren't traveling fast enough across the center to the other side. If you are getting undercut on the edge, then it's usually indicative of the fact you need to pause longer at the end of the side to side movement. I do all of this based on what I see the puddle doing, not on any thing based on "time". To break it down so it's easier to understand the best example I have thought of is time based however. You need the sides to have the same "time" as the center. A hump in the middle means you spent more time there, hence you deposited more material. I see a lot of students spend a count of "1" on the left, a count of "1" crossing the center to the right,a count of "1" on the right, a count of "1" crossing the center back to the left where they started. Using this example, you have a total of "1" on the left, "2" ( 1+1) in the center and a "1" on the right. If the sides are washed in well, that means you have 2 times the amount of material you want/need in the center. You need to pick up the pace crossing the center so you spend 1/2 the amount of time there. Using the same example, if the student spends a count of "1" on the left, a count of "1/2" crossing the center to the right,a count of "1" on the right, a count of "1/2" crossing the center back to the left where they started, you have a total of "1" on the left, "1" ( 1/2+1/2) in the center and a "1" on the right. If the sides are washed in well, that means you have about the correct amount of material you want/need in the center.I almost never see someone who crosses the center too fast and has piles on the sides and not enough material in the center on average, assuming there travel speed along the length of the weld is close to correct. The only time I see that is if they have massive slag inclusions because they are outrunning the puddle by traveling too fast.The other big thing I see is guys motions are too large. They go too slow because they are trying to jump up to far with each side to side cycle. Lets say they do 4 "cycles" left to right and back to move forward 1". That means that they jump up 1/4" with each side to side cycle. To get good "fill" they need to travel slower side to side. Instead if they do say 16 cycles, they only jump up 1/16" each time. This means they have to move faster to prevent the weld material from piling up. There's a lot of motion in the rod, but the material laid down is smaller, so it's easier to control. Also on average I find you can move "faster" traveling up the joint, because you can use more amps and thus reduce the total heat going into the piece.If the plate is heating up too much and the weld is getting "runny", you automatically correct for this if you are reading the puddle. You either close up your arc length slightly to cool the weld down so the puddle gets "stiffer" or you slightly increase your travel speed, if not both. Rod angle can also play a part. If the rod is tipped to far down, you are long arcing in the front of the rod, and short arcing at the back. That tosses a to of heat out in front of the puddle. If you move closer to 90 deg, you shorten up that arc in the front and reduce the heat moving ahead of the puddle some what. I think someone just commented on this after seeing Lanse doing this in his video. This is one of those subtle things that can be easily picked up while watching someone else weld, or that someone who knows what to look for can spot if they are watching you weld.I'm a bit swamped right now trying to beat two different deadlines, but I'll see if I can't get some time in the next week to try and run a few..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Excellent write up DSW!  Dave J.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveExcellent write up DSW!  Dave J.
Reply:Every night I get on here and read how other people do things.The amount of info here is amazing. If I can absorb even a bit of it I will be better for it.Thanks Chris
Reply:Wish I could do a nice weave, never tried it.  I do see a lot of really nice weaves in the oilfield.  Something about the oilfield seems to attract the best welders, you see some beautiful structural welds.Your progress is great, it's been a pleasure to watch it.  Thanks for putting it up."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by snowshovelerEvery night I get on here and read how other people do things.The amount of info here is amazing. If I can absorb even a bit of it I will be better for it.Thanks Chris
Reply:Pattern honestly doesn't matter. It's what works for you. I can do a figure 8, circles, V motion etc, but usually I do a Z or C motion.It's about watching the puddle and waiting for the puddle to catch up to the arc on the sides and moving quick across the middle..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWPattern honestly doesn't matter. It's what works for you. I can do a figure 8, circles, V motion etc, but usually I do a Z or C motion.It's about watching the puddle and waiting for the puddle to catch up to the arc on the sides and moving quick across the middle.
Reply:DSW - Great suggestions, critique and advice. I feel like I'm in welding school again, and I always learn something from your posts. Cheers
Reply:Originally Posted by chuckholeI second that. Thanks DSW.It appears that the pattern is a figure 8. Is that true? Is there a reason for the pattern type? Eights versus circles versus zig-zag or something else?The photos are helping me out too. Thanks JPS.
Reply:Originally Posted by ShortbusWelderTry to do a rainbow motion as well. even pushing the rod towards the top works as well.. I change it up a bit on on vertical. It's all about the mood and feel of the day..
Reply:Originally Posted by JPSShort BusCan you explain a little more on the Pushing the rod towards the top, I think I understood the Rainbow.I am running my fill pass in an arc (rainbow,horseshoe) then quick across the bottom this fills in the groove pretty well and stays flat, I am sure I could run my cap this way also but will keep working on the weave for now
Reply:Thanks all for the pictures and replies. After some more practice on small projects, this is all starting make sense to me. This thread is becoming an old friend.
Reply:I grabbed a few picts from class the other night and finally had a chance to upload them. Not perfect, but some pretty good examples of 7018 vertical up fillets.Lincoln Jet-LH® 78 MR® E7018 H4R, 1/8" 100-115 amps IIRC, 3/8" plate . Not my favorite rod. The puddle isn't the easiest to read compared to some others I've run. Consistency could use a bit of work, but with the puddle being a bit hard to read, that's no big surprise. No undercut, sides wetted in nice, beads look a bit coarser than they really were with the lights the way they were in the shop.  The flash blotted out all the detail so I had to shoot with using the overhead lights and push the ISO up to get decent picts. The angled pict shows approximately how smooth the beads were.Pretty much all of these were just a simple side to side motion. Either a Z or "rainbow" motion, pausing on the sides and moving fast across the center. Attached Images.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSWThank you for taking the time to post these Pictures I will study themThis is the last set I ran Close but still a couple little undercuts,    What really gets me is I run a cap between 2 weld beads  and I can get a tight weave almost like my 6013 run on the Bottom, but when I run a cap over my welded groove I don't run it tight enough.  but like I said I will get it  somedayThe 2 problem I see That I am Having1  The sharp corner of the top of the groove is not my friend I keep cutting into it Rather than just letting the puddle flow over it2 I don't think I can focus fast enough on the corners to see the Undercut happening, Price of getting olderThe good news is That I will get it someday and I really enjoy the ChallengeLast thing the other Picture is 6013 1/8" DCEN was playing a littleThanks again for the helpJoe Attached Images
Reply:Do you guys run stringers at all, or all just weaves???    I was taught to run multiple stringers then one big weave..I would learn to run both, but I wouldn't want to be weaving any bigger then what the pictures show.. I personally would've ran tighter weaves too, but that's me..
Reply:The 3 G test allows for a weave or stringers for the fill, at least that's what the CWI that I am testing with tells me, but the cover has to be a weave, so that's what I have been working on and having some trouble with yes I also practice my stringers.The weave in my pictures is just the width of the groove on the 3/8" plate 3g test
Reply:Originally Posted by JPSThe 3 G test allows for a weave or stringers for the fill, at least that's what the CWI that I am testing with tells me, but the cover has to be a weave, so that's what I have been working on and having some trouble with yes I also practice my stringers.The weave in my pictures is just the width of the groove on the 3/8" plate 3g test
Reply:Originally Posted by ShortbusWelderYea, that's why I thought you ran a big weave like that. The only time I did was on a plate test. I don't like running weaves that big. I'm more of a pipe welder, and we run stringers more then weaves, but like most, I can adapt to the situation and make quality welds.. What amps where you running at? What tech/s are you using?
Reply:Originally Posted by JPSAbout 100 amps I have been playing with it up and down a bit but My Dialarc doesn't have a digital read out and the dials seem to be way off, other welders I have practiced on were at 95 to 105AWS D1.1 I believe is the Tech  Standard Structural Vert up stick test
Reply:Sorry my bad.  yes I use a Z (probably best figure ) basically hold on the side move slightly up and over quickly then hold at the other side, also tried moving straight up a touch then straight across but that seemed more difficult to keep a tight weave.Yes the test plate does have the backing bar extend past the plate and I will be able to finish welding out the top.  The practice piece I am working with actually has bevels on both sides so I use the back of the other side bevel as my backing bar that's why no extension on my practice piece.It had been suggested to me to let the plates cool to 250 deg before continuing with the next pass or cap, I did that a few times while practicing but haven't the past few practice runs.I realize  its more for repeatable control, but letting it cool then raising the amps is sort of like running with lower amps and the plate still hot, just thinking out loud.Again thanks for the Suggestions and helpJoe