Please critique vertical up welds

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Hello,I am a hobby welder but trying to improve my technique and need some criticism of my vertical up welds.  I need a lot of improvement with Vertical.My project (when my welds are sufficient) is a workbench table frame built out of 5/16" angle and 4" square 1/4" legs.   The table top weighs around 1,200 lbs.First a sample of my horizontal welds.  This is on the same 5/16" angle that the frame will consist of.1/8" 7018-AC at 115 amps on a Lincoln TombstoneSteel beveled.     (The large gap on the vertical joint is because this was just a scrap piece I'd cut off the good pieces.)First pass.2nd pass.   Too much undercut?3rd pass.4th pass. Last edited by AmericanWelder; 12-06-2014 at 03:39 PM.
Reply:What movement are you using?  7018 is a drag rod. You should not be whipping it.  Consistency is what you need to work on first.  Do some padding.  Bead after bead on flat plate and get each bead to look the same from end to end.   Once you can do that.  Then we can help you improve from there.   Don't worry about undercut right now,   Consistency is key.   Are you watching the front of the puddle melt into the base metal with a nice oval shape of molten metal following the rod?   Also ate you using AC specific 7018AC rod and not standard AC that needs DC currentTiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:A vertical up pass on the 5/16 before running out of time that day.First vertical-up pass today on 1/4" stock before chipping.First pass after chipping.  Bottom is on the right.Back of the joint after the first pass.  Bottom is on the right.
Reply:Originally Posted by soutthpawWhat movement are you using?  7018 is a drag rod. You should not be whipping it.  Consistency is what you need to work on first.  Do some padding.  Bead after bead on flat plate and get each bead to look the same from end to end.   Once you can do that.  Then we can help you improve from there.   Don't worry about undercut right now,   Consistency is key.   Are you watching the front of the puddle melt into the base metal with a nice oval shape of molten metal following the rod?   Also ate you using AC specific 7018AC rod and not standard AC that needs DC current
Reply:I'm not sure what the next tap is on the tombstone but you may want to try a little more amperage. 115 amps is around what you want for DC 7018 (still a little cold for me). When you have it hot enough you should be able to feel the electrode touching the steel without sticking if you push a little. The amount of spatter from the first and second pass make it look like you were long arcing a bit.Airco Ac/Dc 300 HeliwelderMillerMatic 200 (stolen)Miller Maxstar 150STLMiller AEAD200LE (welding and generating power) Hobart MIG
Reply:Originally Posted by AmericanWelderThank you!What do you mean by "padding"?  I'll go run some more beads on flat bar stock.  Yes this is Hobart 7018-AC, not regular 7018.    115 amps   (choices on this machine are 100, 115, 130...)
Reply:Originally Posted by SquirmyPugI'm not sure what the next tap is on the tombstone but you may want to try a little more amperage. 115 amps is around what you want for DC 7018 (still a little cold for me). When you have it hot enough you should be able to feel the electrode touching the steel without sticking if you push a little. The amount of spatter from the first and second pass make it look like you were long arcing a bit.
Reply:This is padding. You overlap each bead on the previous one Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:To do vertical well you need to be able to see and read the puddle. 7018 AC is probably one of my least favorite rods to run because the puddle is so hard to see well.The "trick" when doing fillets vertical up is to watch the puddle follow the arc and pause at the sides and wait for the arc to catch up to the arc, then move up and quickly move across the center and pause for it to catch up on the other side. Repeat as needed.I prefer to teach vertical up with mig as it's easy to clearly see the puddle and you don't have to worry about if the student is watching slag or steel. Many times if I don't think a student learning with stick can tell the difference when learning vertical, I'll do the "drills" with mig so that they can pick up what I'm looking at easier.I teach vertical up in an "odd" way. 1st thing I do is run a massive "weave" on flat plate. What I'm really doing is to run a bunch of 2" long horizontal welds stacked on top of each other. What I want the student to concentrate on is how the puddle chases the arc and how I pause so it can catch up on each side. The bead looks like death when I'm done, especially with stick, but what I want them to do is learn to watch the puddle. 2" is big enough they can more easily watch the puddle chase the arc. Then I make the weave smaller and small, moving faster and faster each time, checking that they can still see the puddle chase the arc. There is also a sound difference when the puddle catches the arc some can pick up. Eventually I'm doing a very tiny movement, maybe less than a 32nd of an inch side to side and my vertical travel is pretty fast. At this point most students can't pick up the puddle chasing the arc at all, hence why I start out with massively wide ones so they can see it better.As mentioned I like to run on the hotter side and keep the rod in as tight as I can. 115 on DC is about the lowest I'll go. 125-135dc+ is about what I like to run on average using Excalibur..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I don't think that machine is doing you any favors. I've never used a tapped machine before. In the 3-weeks I've been welding, I learned that with vertical up it is all about rod angle. First build a shelf, and let the puddle lay on that shelf, then find the proper rod angle, then travel up with a slight side to side motion, maintaining that rod angle. Sometimes remembering to raise your shoulder while traveling up is a big help. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Still working on the padding.  Here's an update.  Using a plate 1/4" by about 6 x 8.  I am concentrating on watching the puddle - the sort of "fish"/oval shape that develops behind the arc.  I'm making sure it is forming the desired width, and if not, slowing down.  I can tell now where there will be a 'bad spot' (narrow bead, etc...) as I go.It seems as though even if I gently hold the rod against the plate, I still get a lot of splatter.   (130 Amps)About 8 beads in.   (yes I realized it was becoming crooked ;-) )I only quenched it (the rust) because this piece will be scrapped - not used for anything.A fresh bead apart from the others so I could straighten out.  End of bead is where the rod ran out.   (about 2 beads/rod)Re-start with the new rod where the screwdriver tip indicates.  How does the end above and the re-start look?   I notice the couple of holes on the start of the 2nd rod there.Some additional beads.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI don't think that machine is doing you any favors. I've never used a tapped machine before. In the 3-weeks I've been welding, I learned that with vertical up it is all about rod angle. First build a shelf, and let the puddle lay on that shelf, then find the proper rod angle, then travel up with a slight side to side motion, maintaining that rod angle. Sometimes remembering to raise your shoulder while traveling up is a big help.
Reply:Originally Posted by AmericanWelder3 weeks, right.... I've seen the stuff you post here.  I don't understand what you mean about using a "tapped machine"?
Reply:Originally Posted by AmericanWelder3 weeks, right.... I've seen the stuff you post here.  I don't understand what you mean about using a "tapped machine"?
Reply:A tapped machine has fixed settings, A typical example would be an AC 225 Lincoln or one of the older plug style machines where you set your amperage by plugging into a certain plug outlet. This would differ from an infinitely controllable machine like a Dialarc or Idealarc where you can adjust your amperage to any where you want.Shape of the bead tells me you need to slow down. On average you get about 6-8" of weld from a full rod. If you are getting more or less weld, you should adjust accordingly. Right now the V shape of the ripples tells me you are going too fast. You should have a bead with a ((( shape to it not one that has points on it. The "bent bead above, the right side was better as far as travel speed is concerned. The ripples have just a small point to them, showing you were slower than below.Consistency needs work and you don't seem to be able to follow a line well. You may be able to recognize the puddle, but I don't think you have yet learned to understand what it is telling you about what you are doing. Don't worry that will eventually come with more practice. At some point you'll have an "Ah Ha!" moment when things will click and suddenly make more sense.Don't be afraid to quench your practice pieces. I tell students that if the piece is cold enough to hold in their bare hands, it's cool enough to run another bead. If not, the heat build up will act like you are running way more amps than you really are. I see a lot of students who will bring me nice looking beads, but when that have to do a "final" one on new cold plate, they fail miserably. That's because the heat build up is fooling them..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks guys - I will slow down some more.   Here are a few more picture.  Started fresh on the back of the plate.At some point I will look at alternate welders too.  This is one of the old-school ones (not new Home Depot) which I purchased on Craigslist with a few small boxes of rods for $100.  Aside from being economical, I sort of figured if I could learn with this, anything else would be a luxury.
Reply:Bead also looks a tad tall to me. I'd try going up at least one more tap. 7019 will tell you when you are close to being right with everything. The slag will either self peel, or will come off with almost no effort. You might just have to drag the hammer over the weld. If you have to beat the snot out of it to remove the slag, you are doing something wrong.Nothing wrong with old style Ac machines. They work just fine, but do have a few disadvantages you have to work around. For the money, you can't beat them for starting out and you'll likely be able to get every penny back when you eventually want to upgrade.Quick question just to be sure. Are these welds vertical or in some other position like flat?.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:This is 1/8" 7018 on 1/4" plate.120amps, DC.Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWBead also looks a tad tall to me. I'd try going up at least one more tap. 7019 will tell you when you are close to being right with everything. The slag will either self peel, or will come off with almost no effort. You might just have to drag the hammer over the weld. If you have to beat the snot out of it to remove the slag, you are doing something wrong.Nothing wrong with old style Ac machines. They work just fine, but do have a few disadvantages you have to work around. For the money, you can't beat them for starting out and you'll likely be able to get every penny back when you eventually want to upgrade.Quick question just to be sure. Are these welds vertical or in some other position like flat?
Reply:The plate is around 6"x8".....Practice practice practice!!Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:Then move to horizontal.....110amps, 1/8" 7018.The backside of my flat padding of beads.Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:Try and keep the beads straight.That is the first padding beads horizontal I've done...Practice.Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:You guys know that is horizontal....I'm not that good vertical.American welder, I hope these pics give you idea of what the beads should begin to look like...JohnJust a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:Originally Posted by AmericanWelderThese on the plate are all horizontal (flat).
Reply:Thanks guys - I started quenching in between beads until they don't steam so they are below 212* at least when I start the next bead.  I'll quench a little longer just to be safe (trying to avoid too much rust).  I won't say it's not the heat helping too, but I am pretty sure practice is helping :-) Fortunately, I buy up these little chunks of plate whenever i see them as scrap so I have a lot to practice on!Headed back out...Originally Posted by AmericanWelderCame in for a minute to warm up... The slag does come off the weld very easily by tapping it with the hammer.  It pops off in 1-2" sections at a time.These on the plate are all horizontal (flat).Here's my latest set of beads.  Looks like I could still slow down a bit more.  I'll try the next tap (140 I think) and see how it looks.Attachment 928181
Reply:The plate was cool to the touch before starting.  Left 2/3 look good?  This was 145 Amps.  Should I be good to run at 130?  If so I'll back down a tap and work on consistency there.  Once that is achieved, will try horizontal.
Reply:Sure try the 130-amps. Start stacking the beads half way on top of each other.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by AKweldshopYou guys know that is horizontal....I'm not that good vertical.American welder, I hope these pics give you idea of what the beads should begin to look like...John
Reply:Nice arc strike buddy...Just a couple welders, big hammers, grinders, and torches.Work will free you.Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it. Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Reply:Originally Posted by AKweldshopNice arc strike buddy...
Reply:130 amps on 1/4" plate.   The plate was cooled enough to touch between each pass.    Before going from Flat to Horizontal orientation, should I work in Flat on thinner/thicker plate, or using a thinner electrode in flat?Other than continuing to stay slow (got fast on the right side of the closest pass) and work on consistency and straightness do you see anything I need to address?   There's a little porosity especially in the middle pass.  Thinking this may be due to small bits of water left on the plate from quenching.  I didn't see porosity earlier in the day.Thanks!
Reply:Originally Posted by AmericanWelder130 amps on 1/4" plate.   The plate was cooled enough to touch between each pass.    Before going from Flat to Horizontal orientation, should I work in Flat on thinner/thicker plate, or using a thinner electrode in flat?Other than continuing to stay slow (got fast on the right side of the closest pass) and work on consistency and straightness do you see anything I need to address?   There's a little porosity especially in the middle pass.  Thinking this may be due to small bits of water left on the plate from quenching.  I didn't see porosity earlier in the day.Thanks!
Reply:Is the excessive spatter from A/C?  We used to have an old A/C crackerbox in the shop, but all I ever ran with it was 6011.  I've got a newer AC/DC model now, that I've ran some 7018 with several years ago, but on DC.  I've never bought any 7018 AC rods.-------------------------Chemetron AC/DC 300 HFSnap-On MM300L Lincoln SP140 Lincoln AC/DC 225g Lincoln SA200 Lincoln SA200 Miller Bobcat 225GVictor torchesH&M and Mathey beveling machinesMcElroy Plastic pipe fusion
Reply:Getting better. You still have a ways to go though.I like how now you are getting the slag to come off in big pieces. That shows you are quite close to the having the settings right. If you were doing this at the tech school, next thing I'd want you to work on is overlapping the beads by 50% on the last ones. Looks like you might be trying to do this, but you are off some. You want the plate when done to be almost flat at the top. Not a bunch of hills and valleys like you have now in many spots. I'm also seeing a bunch of undercut on the top edge of some of those welds where they overlap. Not huge, but it needs to be worked on a bit before we turn you loose on other things. You are eating away at the last weld and not filling enough. Rod angle is possibly the cause, but it's hard to say exactly not watching you weld.Overlapping beads starts to get you ready for joints. It's an easy way to maximize material for moving next on to lap joints. It's very similar to doing a lap, but the top "plate" is your last bead. That undercut at the top edge will give you trouble when you do your laps. Over lapping beads are also used when you need to lay down larger welds on say fillets or bevel joints, so this isn't just make work. When you do fillets, you'll lay in your root, and do the 2nd pass just like you are doing when you overlap beads. the 3rd pass overlaps #2, so it's just like what we are having you do now.This is also a good way to learn to "aim" your beads. From your picts I can see that still needs some work. It also gives you more practice to work on your consistency.Tech school we have a couple of ways to go from here. Some times students will move on to another rod and do flat beads on plate again after doing overlapping beads. 6011 would be the next one I'd have you do. It welds much different than 7018/7014 rods will. However in some cases students want to stick with one rod for now.  That's often the case with guys who work for the gas company and want to learn to weld. All they use is 6010, so there is little point for them to "waste" time leaning other rods at this point. After overlapping beads we move them on to laps, then T's then outside corners. After that it's split between doing bevel buts or moving on to horizontal joints. Bevel buts eat up a ton of class time with prep, so often we leave those for last and keep moving to the next position..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I'm wondering if maybe you have too long of an arc and that's what is causing all the spatter? Way back when I had an AC 225 and thought it ran 7018 pretty good for a buzz box and not a lot of spatter. Take a straight edge and mark some parallel lines about 1/4" apart with a sharp soapstone. Then try to weld between the lines and have the bead just cover the lines on each side. That will help you get a feel for the watching the puddle and keeping a consistent travel speed. Make sure to watch the molten puddle and not the slag forming behind it, a common mistake for beginners. 130 amps should be a good setting. Have the rod at about a 20-30 deg. angle to keep the slag behind the arc.  Four basic things are needed for a proper weld, D istance(arc length)  A ngle(rod angle) S peed(travel speed) H eat(amps). Get these 4 things in sync. and you'll have it. You're not too far off. 7018 need to be kept dry. They don't need an oven except for real critical work but if they are damp or picked up moisture, that will cause porosity. If you have a little propane torch or even a small BBQ or toaster oven, experiment heating your 7018 to about 200 deg's. and see how they weld. Make sure you wear gloves to handle them. You shouldn't have to do this but it might tell you if your rods have picked up moisture and/or eliminate a lot of the spatter.
Reply:I got a late start today but here are my first five beads of the afternoon.
Reply:Looking very good!The holes in some of those welds, either your rod is not hot, or you're holding too long of arc length.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:That's typical performance with AC.  Increased spatter, and occasional porosity.  Drop to 120 amps, and you get minimal spatter, but it's not hot enough to wet out the bead.  Up it to 135amps, and you get a wet bead, but a ton of spatter.  They never used to run this way, but it seems they do these days.  Or I've lost my touch.  And I don't believe I've lost my touch.Nothing wrong with a tapped machine, it's the arm that makes the weld.  Should be able to put out a decent weld within a reasonable range of amps."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammNothing wrong with a tapped machine, it's the arm that makes the weld.  Should be able to put out a decent weld within a reasonable range of amps.
Reply:Originally Posted by TigMonsterMine are ok. With the little guy
Reply:You guys were right about wet rods... I dried them with propane heat and the porosity dissapeared.
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPWhat do you think the odds are a tapped machine would have the correct spot to do this?
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI'd be the farm a guy like FieldRes could do it, it's the arm.  Don (DDA52) could probably do it too, he's pretty doggone good.
Reply:I mean, not to be a curmudgeon, but there's a lot of stuff that's been done with tapped machines.And I've seen a lot of guys spend a good amount of time fooling with the fine current adjuster instead of welding"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammAnd I've seen a lot of guys spend a good amount of time fooling with the fine current adjuster instead of welding
Reply:Originally Posted by AmericanWelderYou guys were right about wet rods... I dried them with propane heat and the porosity dissapeared.
Reply:Don use to post on Shop Floor Talk all the time. Great guy!Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:AKweldshop, aka John?  Not good with names.Same as TigMonster to some degree.I mean they're pretty good, but you can move up to the next level with it.You got some arrows goin' on.  Pointy puddle.  It's either rod angle, or a bit of whipping.Again....point that sucker up at 45 degrees at the top of where you want the puddle to start on the uppermost toe.  Then keep it there, and let it fill.  Your lower toe is determined by gravity, not a rod movement.  Just enough back angle to keep the puddle from over running the arc.  Few degrees.  Watch that puddle, and just keep drawing it along without pointing your rod anywhere but up at the top toe.Let me illustrate the difference between movement, and the straight dragThe lower weld needs to be hot, but there's a thin edge that could burn thru.  You gently move the rod in a very tight circular motion to control the heat.  Never leave the face of the puddle.  You're pushing metal, not piling it.The upper weld is on thick enough material that you don't have to worry about burn thru.  Aim that thing straight up (at a 45 degree angle) at the very top of the grind out.  Never move it from this line.  And drag it back, letting the metal fill.  You need to play close attention to your undercut, it has to be filled.  And you also need to pay close attention to the bottom of the weld to maintain your nice crisp line.  Heat has to be sufficient to wet out the top, and bottom.  So in my case, with a tapped machine, I'm running at 115amps.  On a Ranger, or something like it, I'd be running smack dab in the middle of the range somewhere.  If you're in the neighborhood, you can change your technique a bit to compensate.So, pick a line, stay with it, and watch the puddle close enough that you make it even.Don't try to run wider than the rod is capable of running.  Keep it tight.  Your stuff looks a little wide, not bad, but a little wide.A long while back, a buddy of mine, Don, told me that I was getting the job done, but could do even better.  I spent some time listening to him, then developed my own methods based on his advice.  I didn't fight it, I just sat there and listened.  It's hard to break habits.  To this day, I'm grateful for his advice.You're almost there, take it to the next level (yeah, I know, sounds corny).  I'll get some smartazz reply, and go on my way"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by AmericanWelderAt some point I will look at alternate welders too.  This is one of the old-school ones (not new Home Depot) which I purchased on Craigslist with a few small boxes of rods for $100.  Aside from being economical, I sort of figured if I could learn with this, anything else would be a luxury.