Help with coreshield 8 vertical up

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I tried to run this stuff today with no luck.  It runs horizontal great and will save me some time, but I still can't run it up.  I took some pics and tried different gun angles, weaves, votages....1/16" wire150 ipm, 21 volts on the V350 set on plain ol mig.   Inductance at recommended setting of +5  150 amps Here are the strinigers first.This looks good....Then I chipped the slag off.  It came off easily, so I must be closeIf I remember right, I had the voltage at the recommended setting, 21.  I had my helper read the LN-25 and it said 21 too.  From using dualshield, those "worms" come from too high of voltage.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:smaller weaves seem to work better, but I want a 1/2" fillet in one or two passes.  Can it be done?   Not by me.  Maybe I should just stick to stick...Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:buy some .45" wire linclon 71m and it goes on like butter 19volts and 230-245ipm  back your drive rolls off some that will help with you worm tracks.power mig 255percision tig 275305G engine drive new
Reply:First, don't weave.Second, go here http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic...4214;hl=nr-232 ,,,,   scroll down a bit, "blaster" made probably the best tutorial about welding with NR 232 I've ever seen.  Coreshield 8 is similar, if anything, it is even easier to use than 232.
Reply:I haven't run any Coreshield 8, but I plan to try some, everyone says it's a lot more user friendly than 232. I do run 232. But, you really aren't supposed to weave any of the T-8 wires that wide. You kind of wiggle, oscilate, squigle it and a lot of guys just move along straight. I wiggle around just because I like too. But the deposit with the T-8 wires is not so wide (maybe1/2" to 3/4" max for me), but it's a thick pass and you move along pretty quickly, quite a bit quicker than with say 7018. Every T-8 I've run will bury slag with a weave like that. Even on flat or horizontal fillets, you usually see a two bead cap (or more) on fillets over 5/16". It runs hot, and fast. At 150 IPM you're around 155 amps I believe and depositing just over 4 lb/hr. I think you are at the bottom of the recomended parameters, I'd turn it up and try it if'n it was me.With 232, in .072", it's run uphill at 140-155IPM a lot, that's about 240 amps, and depositing about 6 lb/hr. That is a huge amount of production in vertical up, for comparison 3/16" 7018 puts down about 5 lb/hr in flat position!The T-8 wires are very voltage sensitive. When I start to get light chicken tracks I turn the voltage down a third or half an amp, till they just go away. Going uphill you can't outrun your slag shelf because it's the only thing keeping that great big puddle from dropping out, but I travel as fast as possible without losing the slag shelf. I gring mill scale off with these wires.If they pick up too much moisture, they will chicken track/worm hole no matter what you do with the voltage.All of this is my take, someone who runs these wires a lot more than we do will probably give you some better info, and like I said my experience is with 232 and there are small differences between wires, just like different 7018's run a bit different.T-8's are more difficult to learn than most welding things, but when it's right there isn't anything on the planet that makes those verticals faster. I don't like the smooth/wrinkly look myself. And the slag dust makes me sneeze and choke, keep your head out of it.My take,Go Cardinals! (they just tied it up!)JTMcC.on edit I just looked at the link posted and that guy covers a lot more ground than I did, that link should help.If you buy these wires I'd suggest not leaving them in the feeder, I've had to throw old wire away, don't buy more than you'll need. I'm going to start buying the sealed foil packs, and keeping the open wire in the rod oven overnight.Also, on the flat/horizontal fillets we run it (up to) in the 300 amp range, where it deposits about 9.5 lb/hr. If I've got any amount of fillets to run I'll use NR-311Ni wire (5/64") as it will deposit a little more at the same amperage but runs like 7018, and you can weave  like you normally would. Probably too much info I know.Last edited by JTMcC; 01-10-2009 at 08:53 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by W55buy some .45" wire linclon 71m
Reply:T-8 wires can be a little tricky.  I have never run any ESAB products, but I found a list of their parameters here:http://products.esabna.com/EN/home/f...eshield_8_71t8Also, with the T-8 wires that I do run, they all have one thing in common for vert up...spend more time on the sides than in the middle.
Reply:Originally Posted by W55buy some .45" wire linclon 71m and it goes on like butter 19volts and 230-245ipm  back your drive rolls off some that will help with you worm tracks.
Reply:The WPS sez "of low hydrogen type" and must be of 70,000 tensile strength.  So YES I need to run T-8 wire or 7018 or MIG.   Mig is fine and my customer likes it when I run it,but when the wind is blowing at all, its worthless.Thanks for all the info, Like I said on the horizontal the sweet spot is 240 ipm and I am using a ranger 250,so it works out great.  I tried 275 ipm and it was too hot even when welding 3/4 to 1 1/4. Here is a pic.  I just laid the 3/4 on a 45* angle with a 3/32 spacer and welded it.   First bead was 275 ipm and too hot for me to deal with. The weld didn't look that good.  So I turned it down to 240 and things went really well.  It flowed to both sides of the groove like it should and I had to pay  close attention to keep the slag behind me.Although I just "threw the pieces together, I did grind both halves.  I will try again with the small stringers vertical up.   I tried wiggling it real fast just a little and got a pretty nice looking bead, but no good enough to use on the job.   I also tried going from 150 to 175.  It welded better, but I think it was too hot for this situation.  I decided to save the rest of the roll for the horizontal 5/8 complete penetration fillets on 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" plate.  If I can get the hang of it, my customer will really like me.    I will pretty much forget the weave.  I also have 232 and 233 both in 1/16".  SO far I blew $300.00 on wire that I have not used yet.I copied the suggested wire speeds and volts so I have a "cheat sheet".  I do for all the wires I buy.Thanks again for the help and the link.  I know its the operator.....David Last edited by David R; 01-11-2009 at 07:17 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:All of the flux core and dual shield wires are considered low hydrogen, and most all of them will be minimum of 70k.So if the criteria you just posted are your only limitations you can use any wire you want. We don't use T-8 if there is a suitable alternative. JTMcC.
Reply:Those "worms" or gas tracks mean you should increase your stick. If they still apear increase your wire speed. Remember the settings are RECOMENDED not absolutes. The gas tracks mean you are on the verge of porosity if memory serves me. Try increasing your stick out and see if that helps. Later on I will get out my FCAW book from Lincoln and see what that yeilds.'Mike
Reply:Dave looks like you are real close.Like was said, vary small movements of the electrode when not in the direction of travel.Pick a voltage and make small adjustments to the feed speed.The worm tracks Is see are from too slow forward (up) speed and too much side to side movement. [I]"smaller weaves seem to work better, but I want a 1/2" fillet in one or two passes. Can it be done? Not by me. Maybe I should just stick to stick..."[I]1/2" fillet in two pass no problem Should be able to get fat 5/16" to skinny 3/8" with no side to side 22.5-23 volts and feed speed at ....? I never look at the dial on my LN-25 but I am thinking the Miller box reads 160-190ipm??I go by sound and feel more than numbers on the machine. The hotter you set the faster you travel as you increase volts the weld gets bigger(wider).I have run Core 8 at 32-36 volts on 2" plate in a slight up (10-20 degrees) making cjp with backing. Root pass was so deep into the backing (1/2" fb) I could see the bulge on the back side travel speed was blazing fast.edit:stickout variation while welding is a no no try to keep it constant for a given feed speed.Last edited by Fat Bastard; 01-11-2009 at 12:34 PM.
Reply:Thanks to everyone, keep it coming.  I am going to run a little more tomorrow night.Coreshield 8 starts at 150 amps with the recommended settings.NR232/233 both start at 200 amps.  I need to keep the heat low for the vertical up part of this application.  I am welding 1 1/4" to galvanized 3/8 plate and can't burn the galv off the back of the 3/8 plate.  They call for a 1/2" fillet which is crazy on 3/8 plate, but I do what it sez.More pics tomorrow night.   I do have a remote for my ranger 250, so if I get to use the wire on the job, the remote will be right next to me to fine tune the volts.I'll get the hang of this stuff yet!David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:In my opinion T-8 wires are the last thing you want to use in a "low heat application".I've seen too many welds made with these wires, that looked ok visually, shoot full of buried slag. We run T-8 hot and fast. Xray or UT educates welders on this every day.You can make a satisfactory "looking" weld with these wires, that's not sound.JTMcC.
Reply:David R,If circumstances are forcing you to use a T-8 wire, like Corex 8, you might try the following...-  Your Coreshield 8 wire is listed as an all position wire.  Run vertical down stringers.  Try running about 21-22 volts and 90-110 WFS, adjust to suit yourself from here.  Your heat input will be lower because your travel speed is higher.  1 stringer for the root and 2 stringer beads to cap your weld.  Use no side to side motion, about a 20-30 degree drag travel angle.  Use enough angle to stabilize the puddle, but too much or too little will have slag running ahead of you and getting trapped.  Travel at about 5-8 inches per minute; faster than vertical up, not quite as fast as flat.  Establish a puddle and travel just fast enough to keep ahead of the slag.  Shouldn't be too tough as Coreshield 8 is a fast freezing slag.If you can't run vert down because of the WPS or your own preferences:-  Turn the heat(voltage and WFS) up and move faster.  Self shielded wire doesn't like to run cold.-  Your vert up weaves look like you're taking big steps up.   Stay on the leading edge of the puddle, don't move up in such large steps.  You should be able to weld a 1" fillet with this wire.  You might need 2 passes to get a nice looking bead.  1 stringer for the root, and then a weave to cap.  The stringer in the root will make the weave easier and also buy you some added protection against burn through on backside of the weave.-  Keep your wire dry.  Store it in a tightly tied plastic bag after use.-  Preheat your base metal.  I know you're trying to keep things cool to protect the backside of the base metal galv.  But even a little pre-heat makes for better running with self-shielded wire.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_doDavid R,If circumstances are forcing you to use a T-8 wire, like Corex 8, you might try the following...-  Your Coreshield 8 wire is listed as an all position wire.  Run vertical down stringers.  .
Reply:don't shoot me for what i am about to post, because i don't know and am asking to learn.  i presume the weld in question is on the tower or similar due to your low temp requirement.  your wps wants a low hydrogen weld? yes.  never mind the environment at the moment, wouldn't mig meet that requirement?  if so wouldn't it be better served to run a .035 or even and .045 wire with a vertical down to limit the heat?  i know mig and vertical down don't give deep penetration, but they do limit heat and the size of the weld should overcome the shortcomings of this process.  wouldn't a double pass or even a triple pass vertical down put enough metal to meet the requirements.  you can run vert down far faster than any vert up and control your heat much better couldn't you?  now for the environemental issue.  i have had to use a small tarp to tent myself with several times when working with a mig.  duct-tape is wonderful stuff.if mig doesn't qualify then what about a dualshield? i know it would be run v-up, i am mostly considering this from a heat perspective as i have tendency to get it hot and 3/8ths is thin when laying 1/2 inch fillet.just asking to learn.Last edited by Scott Young; 01-11-2009 at 10:09 PM.
Reply:This is structural.  I won't weld vertical down.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:i misunderstood that it was structural.  don't know where i missed that at.  i guess i presumed you were attaching something else other than the gussets on the tower.
Reply:I checked the datasheet on ESAB's website and it states that Coreshield 8 is an all position wire.  I could not find any exclusion for vertical down, but to be fair I didn't see an explicit statement saying that it could be used vert down either.I did see that Coreshield 8Ni1 is explicitly listed for vert down use.  I'm willing to bet that the slag is similar between the two wires, and that Coreshield 8 could be run vertical down.Just because the datasheet doesn't explicitly say vertical down doesn't mean it's impossible.  I think it's worth a try in the shop, because running vertical down could solve David R's concern with minimizing the heat input.  If it looks good and he's comfortable welding vert down with the product, then it's worth a phone call to ESAB customer support to see if they can provide data supporting use of Coreshield 8 in vert down applications.It may be a moot point if the WPS he's following doesn't allow for vert down.For discussion's sake, here are 4 different T-8 wires, 3 are explicitly listed and even recommended for vertical down welding.  So yes, T-8 wires can be used in Vert down applications.  The first is described as an all position wire, but the recommended parameters only list flat and horizontal setups.  I know these work in vert down welding, and that there are other Hobart products that can be used in vert down, even if the datasheet doesn't explicitly mention it.http://www.hobartbrothers.com/pdf/da...shield3Ni1.pdfhttp://www.hobartbrothers.com/produc...ABSHIELD_71K6/http://www.hobartbrothers.com/produc...ABSHIELD_81N1/http://www.hobartbrothers.com/produc...FABSHIELD_X80/http://www.hobartbrothers.com/produc...BSHIELD_XLR-8/This is the Hobart equivalent to Coreshield 8.  It has the same ratings for AWS D1.8 demand critical welding.  It does not explicitly list vert down as possible.  I've got some in my shop and I'll see if I can find a few minutes to try it and see what happens.  I also have some ESAB wire, but I"m not sure it's Coreshield 8.  If I do I'll try it and post some photos of the results.I think alot of what goes into  product data sheets depends on who the intended user is.  Vert down is normally associated with pipeline welding, but it's certainly not limited to use in that industry. Originally Posted by mark8310Bad information, really really bad information.   I have the specs for both 232 and Coreshield 8 right here in front of me, nowhere does it say anything about Vertical down.  I've been running these wires for years, never even tried to run them V-down.  Had to look it up, if true this is completely new to me,,,,,,   Are you confusing T-8 wires with T-11?????
Reply:This is news to me, Dab, thanks for posting it up.   One of my LWS is a Hobart dealer, I will need to look into it more.Only T-8 wires I've used, has been 232 (hundreds of pounds), coreshield 8 (maybe a hundred or two pounds), and 233 (one 30# or so roll).   Maybe I need to broaden my horizens a little??????  I will also note, in evaluating different wires, "all position" does not necessarily mean "all directions", and also not necessarily meaning "all directions, in all applications".   Have you actually used any of these wires downhill?????    Can you give us a critique or any observations of the weld resulting????   including penetration, weld profile, etc.????   Or ANYBODY else reading this????   I am really interested, could possibly be a great timesaver.
Reply:The big mental block in my mind, every T-8 wire I've used, the weld metal itself is so runny, it's the slag that freezes up fast, and holds the weld long enough to cool off, and keep it from running out.   Doing it downhill, seems the slag is on the wrong side, the metal would just fall out into your lap.   But I've never tried, it either .......   anybody?????
Reply:In general, cored wires meet low hydrogen specs.  Subject to atmospheric exposure limits and to just how 'low' the low hydrogen level is required to meet.  Cored wires pretty much all meet H16 levels, going to H8 or H4 levels narrows down the wire choices.Lincoln 71M is class E71T-1 and E71T-9, so no it is not a T-8 wire.  But David didn't say he had to use T-8, just a 'low hydrogen' (see above paragraph) and structural (with rated CVN properties) wire.  71M with 100% CO2 gas lists hydrogen levels of 4-9 ml/100g, so it easily meets H16.71M-H with C25-C20 lists hydrogen levels of 3-5 ml/100g, so that easily meets H8.But although 71M and 71M-H are 'all-position' rated, that does not mean ALL positions.  They list 3G-up, but not 3F at all.  Among other positions.Lincoln MC-6 (E70C-6M) with C25-C5 or 2-5% O2 in Ar-O2 lists 3F-up and 3G-up/down, as well as other positions.  As a cored wire, it counts as low-hydrogen (H16).  It meets CVN levels for general structural work.  It has deposit efficiencies greater than 90%.  But is does still need shielding gas.  0.045 wire and C5-C15, 200 ipm 21-23V gives 170 amps and 92% deposit efficiency and puts down 5.2 lbs/hour.  Same wire-n-gas at 300 ipm 22-26V gives 210 amps at 92% and 7.1 lbs/hour.  Same wire-n-gas at 350 ipm  22-27V gives 245 amps at 95%  and 8.7 lbs/hour.Lincoln Ultracore 712C with 100% CO2, E71T-1J H8 E71T-9J H8 E71T-12J H8, CVN results of 100+ (wow!!) ft-lbs (specs are typically minimum requirement of 20 ft-lbs) at 0F to -40F.  Rated 3F-up and 3G-up, among others.  0.045 wire 86% deposit efficiency and 150-295 amps (175-500 ipm wire speed and 22-26V).NR-232 in 0.072 dia lists parameters down to 130 amps (80 ipm and 17V) at 83% efficient and 3.3 lbs/hour deposit.  Go up to 170 ipm and 21.5V and you are at 255 amps and 6.5 lbs/hour at 81% efficient.  Rated 3F-up and 3G-up, as well as others.The chicken tracks?  Could be 1/2 to 1 volt too much, or the wire could have absorbed some atmospheric moisture (both already mentioned by JTMcC).  Unless it was a fresh-out-of-the-factory-hermetically-sealed-package, even 'new' cored wire could have aborbed moisture from the air.  Lincoln makes reference to 'use the cored wire within one week of opening the original package'.  A rebake at 230F +/- 25F for 6-12 hours is listed for Outershield (Lincoln dual-shield) for exposed cored wires, extrapolate that to Innershield (Lincoln flux-core) at your own risk. Or call Lincoln 216-481-8100.  Wire on plastic spools should not be exposed to temperatures above 150F.If you found one/some gas-shielded wire (dual-shield or solid GMAW or metal-core or whatever) and parameters that work in the application except for some wind, then I think the answer (as stated above) is to spend the time/effort to tent off the work area and run the gas-shielded wire.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:And I'll mention it again, about welding positions and electrodes.'All position' doesn't necessarily mean ALL position.  The electrode could be rated 3G-up, but not 3G-down or 3F at all.  Etc, etc, etc.Example: Lincoln NR-203MP is rated "all-position".  And indeed, it lists 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 as positions.  But that "3" is 3G-up/down, but no 3F at all.  The "5" is 5G-down, no 5G-up.  The "4" is 4G, but not 4F.  Etc.But NR-203 Nickel -is- rated 5G-up, but not 5G-down.  Etc.NR-232 is rated 3G-up and 3F-up and 5G-up, 4G and 4F, no vertical downs though.  Etc, etc.And so on.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Briefly,I found a spool of Coreshield 8 in my shop 1/16" and set it up in a Miller 12VS suitcase and hooked it to a Lincoln DC400 CV/CC power supply.It doesn't weld downhill.  ("A man is never a sage in his own home")  This is definitely one of those situations where all position doesn't include vertical downhill.  Oh well, learn something new every day.Coreshield 8 does seem very similar to Hobart's XLR-8 wire.  David R.- I think you'll be much happier with your vertical upwelds if you use some serious drag travel angle.  Think about holding the gun above the puddle, and shooting the wire down onto the leading edge of the puddle.  I'll try and post some pics if I can...  Roger that about only using vert up for this application.  Vert down isn't widely accepted.  (yet)Mark8310 - I've run 3 of the 4 hobart wires I mentioned with downhill travel.  (X80, 71K6, and 81N1)  It takes some practice in order to get comfortable doing it.  Welding vert down does produce a thin stringer bead, so depending on what you're doing it might take more passes to build up enough weld thickness.  But it's fast, and with the right settings the slag is almost self peeling. The penetration is good and the bead profiles are usually flat to slightly convex.  If they're not, then there's a problem with the volts/amps/welder technique.  The technique is to pull straight down with no weaving.  Travel is a little slower than in the flat position, with the wire angled up into the puddle at 20-40 degrees.  The idea is to establish the puddle and travel as fast as you can while still maintaining a nice rounded leading edge on the puddle.  The slag should freeze right behind the puddle, which for 5/64" dia wire is about 3/8" in diameter.  Travel too fast and the puddle collapses, too slow and the puddle/slag will run out ahead of you.  The drag angle should be just steep enough to help 'hold' the puddle up.  Too steep and the leading edge of the puddle 'slips under the arc' and runs ahead of you.  Too shallow and the same thing happens or you burn through the base metal. A word of warning, like JTMcC mentioned, these wires are voltage sensitive, and if you get more than +/- 0.5 volts away from the 'sweet spot' you can have all sorts of issues; things like porosity, extremely sticky slag coatings, burn through, the list goes on and on.  I've seen one ss-fcaw wire that was supposedly designed for running on CC power supplies with a VS feeder, but I don't know if it works or not.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding InspectorCoreshield 8  likes to run hot and fast. Just build a shelf, and work your way up.I don't recall the particular settings that I have used, but you will know when you hit it.
Reply:But just in case you're curious, here's some picture of some ss-fcaw run vert up and down.  The wire is hobart 71K6, 5/64", about 19V 85-90 IPM, 220-230 amps.  Same settings for both welds.  The first pic is vert down, the second is vert up. Originally Posted by David RThis is structural.  I won't weld vertical down.David
Reply:Are you using Coreshield 8 because it's approved for AWS D1.8, or because you like the product and it meets the other requirements for the job(70KSI and low hydrogen)?If you don't need the seismic rated wire, there's lots of other self shielded FCAW products that meet the requirements you mentioned...just another thought.-Dave Originally Posted by David RThis is structural.  I won't weld vertical down.David
Reply:Wow, what a bunch of info.  Thanks to all.   First, A_DAB_will_do, your down looks better than the up!Moonrise, thanks for taking the time to look all that stuff up.For all, I am getting the hang of it.  I messed with it some more tonight.  I went to 160 ipm instead of 150 and went up and down 1/2 volt at a time.  NO weave, just stringers up.   At 22 volts, the slag actually fell off the first half of the bead when I was done with it.  SO the worms were from too low of voltage.  I have to keep the gun pointed straight in or even a little (5*) down.  I have to stay at the front of the puddle and WATCH THE PUDDLE.   Its easy to get behind and have slag everywhere because there is so much of it.  This is a 4 pass UP weld.I will work at a little more tomorrow.  This is 1/2" to 1/4" plate. It gets HOT.   I ground each piece before welding.  160 ipm, 22 volts.  Even at 21.5, I couldn't get the slag off easily.Think of me as an old geezer, I was always taught not to weld down.  I have learned since its OK in some situations, but not for this.  I need low hydrogen properties, 70,000 tensile strength and the impact or V notch properties of 7018.  There is only so much I can get away with.  If asked which wire I used, It will be T-8.  I can't afford to screw this job up.  Besides I gotta learn how to run this stuff just like everything else.  Even if I don't use it this time, I have to know how to run it.  Yeah, I have some ESAB MC6 cored wire, but its not all position unless I use it on pulsed spray, then its a joy,. but I am trying to get away from using gas.  This morning I welded until 10:00 with .045 bare wire and C02. Then the wind came up and it was back to 5/32 7018.   I can get about 1.25" vertical up out of each rod for a 1/2" fillet.  Its slow going.  This Coreshield 8 moves right along even running stringers.  It will also be used for the full penn weld at the base of the 1 1/4" gusset.  I figure once I get the hang of the coreshield 8, I will be able to use the roll of NR-233 and the roll of NR-232 I already have.Thanks to everyoneDavid Last edited by David R; 01-12-2009 at 07:16 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Sounds like you're getting the hang of it if the slag is self peeling.  That tells me that your undercut on the toe lines is all gone and the ripples in teh bead are very small or not there at all.Vertical down is awesome once you get the hang of it.  Yes, a single stringer vert. down is easier to do correctly than a weave vert up.  There's no slag obscuring the weld puddle in vert down, when done correctly.  With vert up, the slag is blocking the view of the puddle edges, and it's easy to move up the wrong distance up or side to side.  The puddle is really hot and fluid because the travel speed is so slow.  The smoke really gets in my way with vert up too. I'm always working on doing it better, but it seems to me that you have to learn to weld by feel, without being able to judge your techinque by watching the puddle.  I think gas shielded flux core is much easier for vertical up.  Wires like your Coreshield 8 or Hobart's XLR-8 are the worse for vertical up because the slag is so thick.I still suggest you try even more drag angle.  0-5 degrees sounds like barely enough.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_do  Snip.......I still suggest you try even more drag angle.  0-5 degrees sounds like barely enough.
Reply:Hmmm, I think Lincoln said/recommended about a 20-25 deg drag angle for the vert-up cored stuff.  IIRCYup, several folks have mentioned that some of the 'pro'  wires have a voltage sweet spot as narrow as 1/2 volt.  You found out too.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:you cant push the T-8 cored wires.  you will just trap slag.    In the up position especially.  You can visually have a fantastic looking weld that has a tremendous amount of slag trapped in it, the first time I tested with the wire the inspector witnessing my test even commented on what beautiful stringers I was laying down but when they went to test the root was to cold and their was a fair amount of slag trapped in the middle filler passes.You have to run the gun angle pointed down and force the weld down into the slag shelf.  I try to NEVER let my slag shelf get farther than 1/16" from my arc.  you have to keep the slag shelf flat and never let it form a V the second you let it form the V the metal will pour out.   232 is nothing Like the CORESHEILD 8.   But the 233 is a lot like the Core-8The difference between 232 and 233 are that 232 starts out life as green rod and is split down the middle and the flux added then closed back up,   the 233 starts life out as strip where the flux is pored in and then a series of roller dies pinch it shut into the cored electrode.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:I am going to try it some more today and cut it apart......NOW you got me concerned.   Lincoln sez 30 push to 5* drag.  I have read it many times.  I can SEE that dragging it helps keep the flux out.... DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Here's a potential trouble spot.  Advice from one filler metal supplier does not always apply to similar products from another company.  In this case, I welded both ESAB's Coreshield 8 and Hobart's XLR-8 yesterday, so I feel confident in the gun manipulation recommendations I gave you.  The slag coating on both welds was similar in appearance, texture, and cleanup.  I have some of Lincoln's equivalent in the shop inventory(NR232, if my memory is correct).  But I hesitate to apply my recommendations to Lincoln's product, without running some first.  The advice you have from Lincoln may be correct for their product.  But I know it doesn't apply to XLR-8 and I'm confident that it's not ideal for Coreshield 8.There's just too many different formulation for the slag systems used in these ss-fcaw wires to make universal recommendations.  I will say that the slag system for XLR-8 is much different than the slag coatings produced by Hobarts other ss-fcaw products.  Those other products do not seem to benefit from using large drag angles in the same manner that XLR-8 does.So, try the large drag angle with your ESAB Coreshield 8, but be mentally prepared to need a different technique when you switch to the Lincoln product.Think I'll try and collect some photos of some vert down welding I've done in the shop, and start a seperate topic of discussion to post those photos.... Originally Posted by David RI am going to try it some more today and cut it apart......NOW you got me concerned.   Lincoln sez 30 push to 5* drag.  I have read it many times.  I can SEE that dragging it helps keep the flux out.... David
Reply:If there's slag, then drag.  In general, that is.And like Dab-a-dab-a-doo mentioned , different wires may have different 'quirks' and such, even if they are the same general AWS class (T-8, etc).  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Been welding overhead on pipe with ss-fcaw this morning.  Probably should change my handle to dog nuts. Originally Posted by MoonRiseIf there's slag, then drag.  In general, that is.And like Dab-a-dab-a-doo mentioned , different wires may have different 'quirks' and such, even if they are the same general AWS class (T-8, etc).
Reply:Not knocking the products but ESAB seems to just let you figure out how their product likes to run.   Hands down Lincoln electric seems to do a much better job of trying to actually help the welder get the best results from their products.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:I ran some more today and am getting better.   I still won't use it on the job for the vertical up.  I almost go t it, , but my welds need to be slag free.  The larger drag angle helps for sure.  What I am trying to do is make a perfect bead of slag as I weld.  It seems to work.  I can see and hear it in the arc when I am getting into trouble.  I even tried a small weave.I turned it down to 125 (150 is suggested minimum) and it was too cold, then I tried 137 ipm and that worked pretty good. You folks have been a ton of help, thank you.  I am going to keep at itDavid Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:[QUOTE=Dualie;243104] You can visually have a fantastic looking weld that has a tremendous amount of slag trapped in it, the first time I tested with the wire the inspector witnessing my test even commented on what beautiful stringers I was laying down but when they went to test the root was to cold and their was a fair amount of slag trapped in the middle filler passes.QUOTE]I agree because I've seen in person welds that were peachy visually, where the X-Ray showed line after line of buried slag. This with welders with 30 - 40 years in all process' on !00% X-Ray pressure piping work.My real life lesson from that is run these wires hot. We've had zero problems since adopting that philosophy.JTMcC.
Reply:I have noticed since I started working with ss-fcaw that travel speed is important.  Generally speaking, faster is better in flat and horizontal.  I had more trouble in the beginning with flat welds failing x-ray, because I was traveling too slow.  The bead will pile up, and roll right over slag on the toe lines.  You clean away what's on top, and completely miss the slag that's trapped just under the toe line.  If I've any suspicions at all, I run a grinder along the toe lines on flat and horizontal welds, as I find this to be cheap insurance.  The skin of metal that covers the trapped slag is usually very thin, and a quick pass with a grind almost always uncovers any problems.This seems to be less of an issue in vertical welding, I believe because the heat input to the puddle is so much greater that the puddle stays molten longer; allowing slag to float out.Gas shielded FCAW seems to have fewer issues with this, I think.  You can run enormous beads in the flat position, without as much fear of trapping slag.  Anybody have the same or opposing opinion?Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Some confusion here is due to using the terminology wrong, I'm as guilty as anyone in using T-8 to describe the 232-233-Coreshield 8 and XLR-8 wires but of course there are several other wires with T-8xxxx designations that run completely different than the 232 types.I'll try to be more accurate from now on.JTMcC.
Reply:For now, I have decided to use the T-8 wire for the horizontal fillet only.  I may try it on the vertical up, but am too concerned about getting slag in the weld.  Where I am welding its a bitch to grind.  I can tell when I am screwing up when going up, so until I burn some more, I will stick or mig weld the up and use the T-8 wire flat and horizontal.  I will be running more, but just don't have the confidence yet to use it on this job.I will do more, and keep at it, but this job has to get done.  Next job..... I'll be doin it!Again, thanks for all the help and great information.  I have learned a lot.  Mostly I am not good enough yet.......DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I took me 4 or 5 14lb rolls of the .072 NR-232 before I can could honestly say AH I got it now.   when you get it right and get your technique dialed its like the fog lifted.   Until you do its the biggest pain in the arse in welding.  without going back through all the treads you are running this on CV correct?   It just don't run worth crap on CC.   NR-211 you can run on either and I actually do better welding it on CC with a engine drive.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Originally Posted by DualieI took me 4 or 5 14lb rolls of the .072 NR-232 before I can could honestly say AH I got it now.   when you get it right and get your technique dialed its like the fog lifted.   Until you do its the biggest pain in the arse in welding.  without going back through all the treads you are running this on CV correct?   It just don't run worth crap on CC.   NR-211 you can run on either and I actually do better welding it on CC with a engine drive.
Reply:David I recently had to run 1/16 dual sheild wire vertical up some said it could not be done but after some practice it worked well but took 3 passes to get the 1/2 inch bead required.I used Perfect Circle E71T-1/1M this was made by J.W. Harris. I don't have any pic's but if i get a chance Monday I will run some. We are only working 4 days a week right now. This is a sub contract job for General Electric it is a jet engine transporter for the assembly process it is all 1/2 inch wall retangle tube all joint are chamfered and the welds have to 100% penatration. They are dye checked with a black light by an outside contractor and I have not had any slag problems show up.Toolman Attached ImagesLast edited by toolman; 01-15-2009 at 09:29 PM.Miller 330 A/BP Bernard SS coolerMiller cst 250Miller Big Blue 251DCentury 210 Mig (first welder I bought)Hypertherm PowerMax 800Victor torch setRu Fong 31 MilAtlas lathe
Reply:Dave I just skimmed this, can you go Dual-Shield?Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Tozzi and ToolmanIf Its not windy, I run bare wire and Co2.  It works fine. If its windy, I end up using stick.  I have to run T-8 wire to keep the customer happy.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:why not run a type of T-8 that is a little easier?  There are T-8 wires that weld quite a bit differently than the one your are using.
Reply:weldrwomn,Have any recommendations of any specific T-8 FCAW self-shielded wires that are easy/easier to run?  Besides the already mentioned 232-233-Coreshield8?Lincoln's NR-203MP (E71T-8J) perhaps?  That is rated as 'all-position' (rated 1G, 2F, 2G, 3G up/down, 4G, and 5G-down, but not rated 3F) and 'structural' and has rated CVN properties of "excellent" (from Lincoln's (AWS A5.20 required class CVN properties at -40F is 20 ft-lbs min, Lincoln's test results publish that wire at 66 ft-lbs CVN at -40F  )Lincoln NR-207-H (E71T8-K6 H8) perhaps?  Rated 1G, 2F, 2G, 3G-down, 4G, and 5G-down and CVN rated at 130-170 ft-lbs at -20F  and 109 ft-lbs at -40F(class requirement is 20 ft-lbs at -20F only).  It's a pipeline wire.And just a reminder folks, Lincoln's NR-211 wire is NOT-NOT-NOT 'structural' rated (it and the class of E71T-11 have no listed requirement for CVN properties, unless you somehow call it structural welding even with no impact CVN requirements).  And NR-211MP also has workpiece thickness limitations of 5/16 or 1/2 inch MAX depending on the wire diameter used.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...