Salvaging engine block?

admin

Just how crazy is this?I've been tearing apart a 1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster for some months now. The car was pulled from service in the mid 1980s and the engine has been seized since at least 1998.At this point, the head is off, the pistons and crankshaft are removed.It is quite clear that this engine has had sealing issues.During my tear down 3 heli-coils backed out. One threaded hole was drilled and tapped two sizes oversize and a special stud fitted.On top of that, whoever did the work, drilled out the bottom of all 14 holes into the water jacket!The standard head studs are 7/16-20 and the oversized one is 9/16-18.There is also a crack from the oversized hole to the nearest cylinder liner.Now for the craziness:If I fabricate 14 "blind plugs": 9/16-18 on the outside about 1 1/4" long with a 1" deep hole drilled and tapped to 7/16-20. The open end would be slightly chamfered on the outside.Then drill and tap all 13 remaining holes to 9/16-18.The holes in the block would get a 1/16" countersink.Once the plugs are screwed in, the chamfer and countersink will form a grove at the interface of the two parts. I would then TIG the plugs permanently in place, sealing off the water jacket from the head studs. File off excess filler.I have an oversized wood stove for preheating the block and slow cool down.Testing with 3 PSI air and soapy water to correct any faulty welds.The Book calls for 55 ft/lbs on the studs to seat the head. So grade 5 threaded rod would be needed as a minimum. Though grade 8 May be needed.So, am I being totally foolish to try this? Or should I just spend the buck$ and buy an intact block?What about gouging and TIG'ing the crack while the block is hot?Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goThe Book calls for 55 ft/lbs on the studs to seat the head. So grade 5 threaded rod would be needed as a minimum. Though grade 8 May be needed.
Reply:I'd try to find out if your plug idea has been done before, and the success rate.       If minor dia. of 9/16-18 is .510, and major dia. of the 7/16 is .437+, it only leaves you w/ a .035 wall in some places, at best.   Your ideas and creativity is great.    But you already got a block crack from going 9/16, so making more would take alot of guts.     I've used permatex 2 (that black stuff that dont harden) on head bolt threads that go into water jackets to try to hold water back.    My dad had one of those 12 cyl jag roadsters when I was a kid.   I think his was an xke, or a remake of it or something.   It was nothing but a headache.
Reply:If it were me and the car was being built for myself without maintaining originality, I'd probably install an inline six from an American platform. Myself, I'd probably go with a 4.0ltr engine from a Jeep product, or a 250 Chevy engine.I'm partial to the exhaust sound of an inline six cylinder engine and that's a personal preference. If you installed a large exhaust on one of these they really don't sound too far off from the original engine. If you incorporated the electronics out of say a late 1990's Jeep along with the engine itself running a Novak adapter, (as example) to install a Muncie, or Saginaw transmission, (manual) 350, early 700R4 (automatic) you'd have very good reliability and upkeep would be much less expensive than the Jaguar engine.SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:@MikeGyver, it wasn't a wild guess, but close,  I used a chart on Fastenall's web site. It was on the Internet, so it must be true? The 14 OEM head studs are rather spindly affairs and with a little proper research I can find out what Jaguar specified back in 1969. And I definitely understand the forces needed to seal the head properly. I've dealt with Deisel engines and their finicky issues in the past.@123weld, yeah the wall thinness was keeping me up last night. Going to an outside size of 5/8" will give a stronger plug, but will there be enough block left to keep the head tight?@Slob, I am building the car for me. And I'd like to keep it as original as practical. Switching to another make of engine and transmission throws too many variables at the suspension system. I enjoy driving these cars too much to go that route. You also hit on a pet peeve of mine, Jaguar never built an "XKE". They where named "E-Type" and used the XK engine from the earlier body-on-frame sports cars.And, unquestionably, the series 3 (V12 powered) E-Types are painful to work on! And the engine is so tight in there, under hood temperatures damaged plastic and rubber parts.Mine is a series 2. The L6 with the improved cooling and charging systems. And the Open Two Seater (roadsters), the most desirable of the lot.If you read the manual, you will find that these cars have to be serviced every 2,500 miles. If you don't have a competent mechanic go over your Jaguar often enough, you operate it at your peril.I totally agree with you on the inline 6 being a wonderful engine style, I had a 4 liter Jeep Cherokee (5 speed stick!) for a while and the engine would never do anything weird. Try and accelerate in too high a gear? It just wouldn't respond. No bucking or coughing. Downshift. And all-was-right-with-the-world!I'm still in a quandary if this is a practical solution, or find a block from an XK powered sedan (the XJ-6 was built until 1999).Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:I'd look for another block,fix it to original,if possible.Makes resale and sellability,if you have to more profitable.either you LIKE BACON or you're WRONG!!!! "There are three kinds of men.The ones that learn by readin'.The few who learn by observation.The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves"-Will Rogers
Reply:how about epoxying in the end plugs since they dont have to come out, that would add a small amount of integrity to the oversize threaded areas...you have nothing but some time and money to loose if the block doesnt hold up....mabe search for a better block, but at what cost?..also you miss all the fun of playing with that block..Of all the things I lost I miss my mind the most...I know just enough about everything to be dangerous......You cant cure stupid..only kill it...
Reply:Don't go with a different inline six. The XK in 4.2 is an incredible engine. If you don't want to buy a block, sell it to me, I will.
Reply:No fault to be found with anybody's ideas. I just stated what I'd do but I'm not really an affectionado of these type things. I tend to make something servicable from not at low cost if possible for the owner. I'm only conveying that analogy. I enjoy authenticity as well as creativity to making the product or automobile, (in this case) fit the owner's pocketbook, or ambitions.I wish you success no matter the path you proceed upon. Thanks,SlobPurveyor of intimate unparalleled knowledge of nothing about everything.Oh yeah, also an unabashed internet "Troll" too.....
Reply:Is the block original to the car? If not I wouldn't hesitate to find another good block. If it is and you are trying to keep the car numbers matching its gonna be fun times.On the 63 I saved a head on the head studs also went into water passages and no one was in the motor before me. The studs all had to have sealant on them when installed to seal out the water and then the nuts put on and torqued down after the sealant set up.Personally I wouldn't worry about the cylinders cracking to much with the proposition you put forth. So long as the plugs are making complete contact with their walls all the way down and a very good sealant/locker were used to make the plugs almost one with the block I don't think there would be enough pressure either from the cylinder or the stud itself to cause a crack. But it can happen I am sure. It sure would suck to go threw all the work and rebuild and all and have a cylinder crack right away though. 12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goThere is also a crack from the oversized hole to the nearest cylinder liner....If I fabricate 14 "blind plugs": 9/16-18 on the outside about 1 1/4" long with a 1" deep hole drilled and tapped to 7/16-20. The open end would be slightly chamfered on the outside....What about gouging and TIG'ing the crack while the block is hot?
Reply:Most head bolts and studs go into the water jacket. Not ideal, but never has really been a problem. What you havent stated is what you are going to do about the crack into the cylinder.
Reply:@APT, I don't know if it is a matching numbers car, though the casting shows a date of July 1968 which is consistent with a 1969 car.I hadn't considered just selant because the already in place heli-coils will never seal properly. The two sets of threads will always leak.@G-son, the block is cast iron with steel cylinder liners. The liners are considered a replaceable wear component."Plug with a head"? You are sending my thoughts in a fresh direction. Unfortunately, the head would be on the sealing surface of the block and would require very precise machining during fabrication and after assembly. The bottoms of the holes are not accessible to install the plugs from that direction.At this point epoxy or other good quality selant will be used to hold the plugs "permanently enough". The crack between the one hole and #2 liner is only 1/2" - 3/4" long and already ends at holes. It's not going anywhere.So, at this point my choices are: fix this or update to An EFI engine?A period-correct 4.2 block from an E-Type is in the 4-5 thousand dollar range. A whole XJ-6 can be had for a few hundred.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:If you have access to a milling machine you could offset the plugs in the block to allow more meat between it and the cylinder wall. Of course this would require drilling and tapping the plugs after welding.Miller 180SDLincoln weld pak 180Hobart 250ciMill Lathe
Reply:Originally Posted by mnrjohnsonIf you have access to a milling machine you could offset the plugs in the block to allow more meat between it and the cylinder wall. Of course this would require drilling and tapping the plugs after welding.
Reply:Pics.  We need pics.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Yeah, more pics please.My grandfather was a factory trained Jaguar Mechanic. I've still got some of his Jaguar wrenches, some of the nicest quality tools I've ever seen.Mr. HE
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goNow for the craziness:If I fabricate 14 "blind plugs": 9/16-18 on the outside about 1 1/4" long with a 1" deep hole drilled and tapped to 7/16-20. The open end would be slightly chamfered on the outside.Then drill and tap all 13 remaining holes to 9/16-18.
Reply:I am wondering if a Time Sert would help in this situation.GravelThe difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.
Reply:Whelp, bad news, good news ad nausium...The guy with the parts car already used the engine.I did some digging and found Time Serts (and others) make the piece I want (sort of). So I will need to close off the bottom of the threaded inserts to keep coolant away from the head stud threads.Buuuuuutttttt, there is still that crack from #2 to the nearest stud hole.My dad feels the block should be replaced.Though I'm feeling lucky and thinking that pulling the engine again in 10,000 miles (if these repairs don't hold) won't be such an chore.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Pictures or it didn't happen. What is this, teh intarwebs?First the top of the block as it stands now:Close-up of the crack between the #2 cylinder and the oversized hole:I noticed puckering around several other bolt holes, so the block must be condemned. Sealing the head will be a never-ending source of trouble.The tops of one of the casting marks has been trimmed off. I suspect that this block has been decked too many times already:You can clearly see the backed-out heli-coils too!Now begins the search for an engine from a Jaguar XJ-6 sedan or coupe. Series III, X40 or X300. Anybody have one of those kicking around?Last edited by mike837go; 01-03-2015 at 05:21 PM.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Timeserts are good, I've used them lots of times. There are 4 of them in my brothers 9 second camaro, two for headstuds and two from trans bolts.I would be very tempted as well to sert that block but then have it resleeved possibly.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTTimeserts are good, I've used them lots of times. There are 4 of them in my brothers 9 second camaro, two for headstuds and two from trans bolts.I would be very tempted as well to sert that block but then have it resleeved possibly.
Reply:That is probably the best bet. You forget about the price of the other block well before the car is all back together again I am sure. I also agree with that many holes buggered up, not only the cracks you see but what else aren't you seeing and will find out about after everything is together.Those electrical problems, they never end on a jag.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTThose electrical problems, they never end on a jag.Originally Posted by mike837goThat's why I traded in my 1997 XJ-6L on a new VW Jetta TDI.And rebuilding this E-Type includes total rewiring. I WILL exorcize all of Lucas' demons, gremlins and poltergeists.The nice part of finding a block from an XJ is not paying for it. Just relieving someone of their yard art that was supposed to be a car makes the car owner's spouse very happy. My cost is just what it takes to get it my shop, less the cash when the remainder goes for reclamation. If I keep the transport costs under $150.00, I can come out ahead.
Reply:Its amazing that a car that basically has nothing on it has so much wiring. If 3 wires will do surely 12 will be  much better!12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Originally Posted by SlobIf you drive that VW about five years you'll start to reveal the idiosyncrasies of their wiring harnesses. Many times on the TDI engines it's best to replace the harness wholesale rather than chase it's electrical gremlins. Put a bug in the ear for the injector wiring harness as it's the first to "cook" with use and become very brittle. When you start to experience intermittent missing and are unable to locate the fault, this is a good place to start. Very good powertrain no matter what vehicle it's installed into but the harness should be improved.
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTIts amazing that a car that basically has nothing on it has so much wiring. If 3 wires will do surely 12 will be  much better!
Reply:Pretty much every single part on these things is over complicated.  Those rear lower suspension wishbones... "We can't use simple bushings, thats for cheap cars, we need a 20 part conglomeration for every joint!"12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTPretty much every single part on these things is over complicated.  Those rear lower suspension wishbones... "We can't use simple bushings, thats for cheap cars, we need a 20 part conglomeration for every joint.
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goAnd don't forget, the rear half shafts are stressed members. Fully part of the rear suspension!They double for the non-existant upper wishbone. Kewl....
Reply:12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTIt is odd but after assembling it and seeing it, it was a good way to save weight, but puts allot of pressure on the u-joints and setting caster sucks.
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goAw, c'mon. Setting the caster is simply a matter of the proportion of spacers on either side of the wheel bearing. Just because one has to completely disassemble the entire hub assembly should not dissuade the intrepid enthusiast from so critical an adjustment.Done a valve lash adjustment lately?-------I can't quite figure out which car that assembly is being loaded into. I don't recall that much stamping work under a series 1 or 2 E-Type. And the amount of protection around the fuel tank well/drain seems excessive.I just gots to know...
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTI laughed out loud when I read the valve lash comment.   Not only did I get to do it but I got to use the old shims that were all thrown in a bag together with no labels. You should have seen the paper I was using to keep track of everything.
Reply:Toyota uses solid cups yet between the cam and valve? That seems odd to me. I thought most vehicles used some sort of hydraulic lash adjusters now days.Honda adjustment is pretty easy. They have adjustable rockers much like the aftermarket poly lock rockers for american cars.While these old jags are a bit of a pain and have lots of parts they are designed pretty well for what their intent was. Everything is adjustable and it is pretty cool that the factory manual has both street and race specs for everything.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Originally Posted by VPTToyota uses solid cups yet between the cam and valve? That seems odd to me. I thought most vehicles used some sort of hydraulic lash adjusters now days.Honda adjustment is pretty easy. They have adjustable rockers much like the aftermarket poly lock rockers for american cars.While these old jags... Everything is adjustable and it is pretty cool that the factory manual has both street and race specs for everything.
Reply:The oil filled fulcrum rockers sounds interesting!For the honda rocker adjustment I never went by the book for turning the motor over. The cam is very visible while doing the service so I always just turned the motor over till the cam lobes pass the cylinder I am working on and adjust. All the exhaust first, then the intake side. I really like their setup.I have been wondering where those rear brake ducts go on the jag. I was expecting them to be part of the differential carrier but they never popped up while assembling. I see now they go on the bottom of the car shell itself.This car has 4 carbs. Two are on the motor yet and two are in a box for some reason. Luckily I don't have to do the tuning, I am just assembling, get it to fire, and it goes on to the "carb guy".  12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Buy the kit and rebuilding the carbs is less aggravation than bleeding the brakes alone.Then the fun of setting them properly!Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Why weld the plugs when you can Loctite them in.And why are you guys having to do valve lash adjustments more than once within the lifetime of the engine?  Especially with the Toyota?
Reply:Originally Posted by 76GMC1500Why weld the plugs when you can Loctite them in.
Reply:You might PM Castweld about rewelding the block. The type of welding you would want is furnace welding, not electric arc. This is, I believe, what he does. You could theoretically weld up all your stud holes, then have them re machined and tapped
Reply:Originally Posted by walkerYou might PM Castweld about rewelding the block. The type of welding you would want is furnace welding, not electric arc. This is, I believe, what he does. You could theoretically weld up all your stud holes, then have them re machined and tapped
Reply:Googled furnace welding. Yup, lots and lots of preheat. Ladle-sized puddle. Extra-slow cool down.Taking a casting as close to being re-cast as possible without melting the whole thing. Tricky, hot environment work!I've sucsessfully welded small cast iron parts. That process is a big deal!I now understand what you were talking about.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:While we are on the subject Mike, do you know if it is alright to have these cars off the ground without supporting the rear carrier? Its a little scary thinking 400+ pounds is being supported above your head by just a rubber to metal bond.12v battery, jumper cables, and a 6013.I only have a facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/VPT/244788508917829
Reply:Across 8 points, some of which are being compressed, even when the car is raised off he ground.And I am not under the irs cage that much.Considering the forces these things were designed to face during hard driving or racing, hanging down for extended periods is well within specifications.What made me nervous originally was the 1/4-28 hardware holding the cage to the car. But there are 32 of them...Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A