building fire support equipment!!!

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I just landed a job with Idaho department of lands building fire support equipment. here is my first project.. I have to take a military 6x6 and make it into a water tender. ive got two of these to build. so far ive got the rear bumber kinda built and side storage. I still need to add a 10 inch quick dump and a volume pump. I have more pics ill get up later.. any ideas would be great!!! they told me to build these how I see fit so ive got a lot of options... just thought id try to get some ideas from you guys.. Attached Images
Reply:looks like possible dream job
Reply:Quality of what I see so far looks good. As a fire fighter in my spare time i can say there is never enough space for tools and equipment. Places to store hard suction and large diameter hose (LDH). Make sure it is easy to clean, fire fighters like to have shiny things. If you could provide more information on the specific job that this apparatus is require to do that would be helpful.Cain's Mechanical LLC Southwick, MAwww.cainsmechanical.comRig:-2006 Chevy 2500 utility body-Lincoln Ranger 10-Miller Spectrum -Tons of hand and power toolsAWS D1.2 Structural Steel Certification
Reply:its supposed to go to a rural fire department as a water tender with no pressure pump just a volume pump for filling the 1500 gallon porta tanks. the ones that fold up. I do know it needs more lights and will get another box on the driver side. I would like to add a shovel and axe holder. also need to find somewhere to mount the spare tire.... I plan to add more aluminum diamond plate everywhere I can..
Reply:I would think a good set of recovery hooks would be a thing for any truck like that. Also maybe brackets for long handle tools on the side of the truck.PROUD   AMERICAN
Reply:I take it that's going to be the industry standard Newton jet dump?  Is the on-board pump going to be PTO driven or have its own drive engine?Discharge hose requirements should be minimum but hard suction will be critical for on-loading operations if the unit is expected to be self sufficient as I think it would need to be.What is being done regarding baffles?  Be sure to provide enough low openings to assure adequate dump flow between baffles.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:yeah it will be a newton pump.. the pump will be a self driven one. the tank has lots of baffles for being only 10 feet so you bring up a very good point. it will have the one 10 inch dump in the back. it does have a 6 inch dump in the middle of the tank that I need to utilize some how.. I think it will have 3 and 4 inch fittings for suction. I wanna put a manifold on it so that anything can be hooked up to the truck.
Reply:Quick question did they have a basic upfitters list? just out of curiosity as I have worked on trucks for use in Oregon and they have an upfitters list that goes out with the bid sheet. But you are correct they do leave you with a pretty good grey area that can make this kind of work fun.Millermatic 30aMillermatic 210Miller thunderbolt 225 ac/dc/ccMiller HF15-1-wg tigLincoln ranger 10(honda powered)Cebora 175 mig Too damn many tools but oddly not enough......
Reply:they are supposed to give me a outfitter sheet this week I hope... that would make this project a little easier. I did get a price to stay close to and that is 16,500 not including labor. truck and tank were military surplus so free bee..
Reply:Originally Posted by fabproevanthey are supposed to give me a outfitter sheet this week I hope... that would make this project a little easier. I did get a price to stay close to and that is 16,500 not including labor. truck and tank were military surplus so free bee..
Reply:Look at Pierce tactical tenders for ideas. A huge box for a "pumpkin" tank is really nice.  We have two tenders on our department with high volume (construction) pumps, truthfully you need a pressure/volume pump.  When you get on a big fire the first engine in will leave you a driveway lay and expect you to feed it.  Ours have failed in that department.  We have a portable high pressure/volume pump for that need, but it is a bandaid fix. A tactical tender is capable of defending itself and freeing up a second engine by pumping pressure up a feed line. Right now we usually have to have a second engine simply to pump the water up a hill where it is needed. It is a waste of precious resources. You will find out ,even talking to many chiefs, many do not understand the relationship with pressure and volume. They think they have what they need, but don't.  That being said, legally, NFPA say's the tender doesn't have to provide the pressure, it can just dump and go.  But in reality it is best.
Reply:If possible, talk to the firefighters and officers of the department that will use it.  There is absolutely no sense in adding expensive options (like major pumps) if the department will not use them.  In my experience, fire departments tend to be stuck in their ways.  Some may want a tanker to feed a long supply line, others just to use a drop tank, yet others just a slow refill of the pumper.   Filling the tanker is another thing that will vary.   In some districts, the tanker will get sent to a hydrant.  In others, they will use a portable pump from a pond or creek.  I don't know if any departments use hard suction for filling a tanker.  Some may but probably have an engine set up for that duty since it's not a quick setup to start operation.  Yes, the baffles and a low center of gravity is critical.   A nearby department rolled their tanker coming back from a run, totalled it.  The first department I was on (45 years ago, yikes!) built their own tanker on a chassis from a surplus county dump truck.
Reply:To be a paid tender on a large federal or CalFire incident, there are requirement to self fill, even though that can be a larger honda portable pump. Pressure requirement is not high, but in my opinion it should be. I believe it used to be a requirement. I'll try to find you a requirement list. If you talk to a fire dept you will find everyone has a different opinion on what is needed leaving you more confused than when you started.  If you find a chief without a big ego he can set you up with one or two knowledgable people.  One from a mechanical truck requirement field and one from a firefighting field. I have tried to explain water pressure and volume issues in the past till I'm blue in the face.  You would be amazed how many fire officers don't understand it. Once you dump into a pumpkin or portable tank, there are many city engines that have never needed to draft water before and fail in a panic, so again a portable pump is nice.  95% of portable pumps are built for volume, not high pressure, so look at the performance curve charts. CalFire has started carrying a smaller high pressure honda pump on all its engines, but it is a comprimise.  It puts out about 100GPM at 40-50 PSI, not really enough, but it will fill their engines in 5-8 minutes from a portable tank or pond.
Reply:Originally Posted by fabproevanyeah it will be a newton pump.. the pump will be a self driven one. the tank has lots of baffles for being only 10 feet so you bring up a very good point. it will have the one 10 inch dump in the back. it does have a 6 inch dump in the middle of the tank that I need to utilize some how.. I think it will have 3 and 4 inch fittings for suction. I wanna put a manifold on it so that anything can be hooked up to the truck.
Reply:Also, even though many would argue, I would put several inlets and outlets at 2 1/2" NH (NST).  Every truck on a fire can use that.  Bigger than that, every truck is different.  The gravity dump can be much bigger, and the pump suction can be bigger, but you will find fire fighters using 2  1/2 more than anything, even off a tender.
Reply:Originally Posted by blackbartI have tried to explain water pressure and volume issues in the past till I'm blue in the face.  You would be amazed how many fire officers don't understand it.
Reply:The few things I would recommend based on the brush fire trucks I've seen in service are:1) make the side storage easily accessible from the side, not just the rear2) install good recovery points off the rear (front as well if you're doing that area)3) Add handles wherever there are areas someone would be able to stand so that guys standing on the truck have something to hold on to4) where possible add in steel ladders to climb up the sides/rear of the vehicle5) Remove all sharp pointy edges that can catch skin or clothing6) add flat areas to stand on with some good tread to provide traction wherever possible--Wintermute"No man's knowledge here can go beyond his experience." - John Lockewww.improvised-engineering.comManufacturer Agnostic:Blood----------Sweat---------Tears----|------------------|----------------|----Lincoln Red, Miller Blue, Esab Yellow
Reply:I realize you're already past that point, but don't rule out the possibility of doing a frame extension off the rear to utilize space behind the tank . . . which may not be viable as it will increase your overall length which isn't desirable in most situations, but I figured I would throw it into the pot.  May also want to consider a front discharge/dump line as backing up once in a tight spot may not be possible or take too much time . . . will a smaller front line suffice if trying to get backed up into position runs the risk of getting stuck or will take too long?MikeConstans Fides et IntegritasLincoln Weldanpower 150 ACAirco Aircomatic MIGet CAV II w/ spoolgunMillermatic 30a wirefeeder
Reply:Actually Newton has side dump shoots for those rear mounted units too that swing to each side to accommodate dumping to either side.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Foam systems confuse them even more, your'e right.  Our latest chief swears we have foam for gas fires, even though it is just class A.   I tried to explain we don't, and don't have the capability for it since it runs at 3-6% instead of 1/2% like class A. Then it confuses him more when I try to get him A-FFF foam so it will work with existing equipment. I don't run foam systems on the tenders because I have found bubbles in the supply lines can cavitate the pump being fed. Most newer engines have built in foam systems.  I have been experimenting with solid stick foam systems with some success, although it is not as good as a mix system.