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I run a maintenance department and have many salesmen come to talk to me everyday trying to sell me something. Today I had a guy I do business with come in because I had some free time and he went over some stuff with me. He is a Pro welder/ Salesman for this company. Long story short he says to me I have a new product I would like to show you. It is a rod that you can use to extract broken bolts/studs with using your stick welder. I in turn say Bullsh**. If I weld inside and try to weld to the broken bolt/stud it will stick to the side of the machine screwing up my hole and welding the piece into it making the problem worse. He says no, so I say prove it. We go out to the fabrication area and we put a 3/4 bolt half way onto a 3/4 nut. then clamp the nut into the vise simulating a broken bolt halfway into a part. he then fires up my stick welder and strikes an ark in the center building up weld. Let it cool and strike it up again a few times. (Chipping away the slag in between cooling.) takes about 3 or 4 min to do it. when he is done he has a solid piece of weld outside of the nut and says "OK now if this were a part you would get a nut and weld it to this then unscrew the broken bolt." I say to him all you did was weld the nut to the bolt and its never coming off" he then takes the nut out of the vise and clamps the bolt side then proceeds to take a wrench and unscrew the nut. The threads weren't even messed up. I was amazed and actually am going to buy it. This isn't the way I would extract every bolt but I am in an industrial environment and it may come in very handy when a big machine brakes the head off a big bolt and the extractors just wont do it. Here is a link to the kit if you want to check it out or if you have used it give me some input. http://www.tifco.com/cat/hsection.pdf It is the stud pulling kit part #87649 about 1/4 down the page. I thought it was cool. Has anyone herd of this method before? If you guys want to see I may have enough stick left to do another and take some pitchers this Saturday.Drivesector Hobart Handler 140Hobart Handler 180Ready Welder 2Hobart Air Force 400Airco Stinger 225Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."OZZY"
Reply:I've heard of it,but never seen it used. The person who told me about it said he was amazed at how well it worked. MikeOl' Stonebreaker "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:I used to rebuild track frames on dozers and did this numorous times using 7018. It gets touchy when you get down below a size 1/2 inch bolt. It suprised me the first time I watched a Cat Mechanic do it but it really does work quit well. 7018 rods have enough flux to protect the threads if you never touch the sides and tap out the flux between tacks.
Reply:Sorry Im not sold - yet. Lets face it, that demonstration bolt probably could have been walked out with a prick punch. There are easier faster better ways to extract loose broken bolts. Extracting a hand assembled new bolt is a different ball game than the stuck bolt that broke while trying to turn it out. Extracting broken off bolts by welding to them is no secret. Can be done with wire too. So what does the kit consist of, just old faithful electrode? Can you test the strength of the build-up by clamping it in the vice and turning the bolt? It would be nice if they included some thin sleeves, maybe ceramic, so as to allow higher heat while protecting the threads.Look whos fault they say it is if things dont go right; If there are any problems removing the broken part, weld deposit build-up was improperly centeredThumbs down here, looks like overpriced electrode is all. Sorry.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepSorry Im not sold - yet. Lets face it, that demonstration bolt probably could have been walked out with a prick punch. There are easier faster better ways to extract loose broken bolts. Extracting a hand assembled new bolt is a different ball game than the stuck bolt that broke while trying to turn it out. Extracting broken off bolts by welding to them is no secret. Can be done with wire too. So what does the kit consist of, just old faithful electrode? Can you test the strength of the build-up by clamping it in the vice and turning the bolt? It would be nice if they included some thin sleeves, maybe ceramic, so as to allow higher heat while protecting the threads.Look whos fault they say it is if things dont go right; If there are any problems removing the broken part, weld deposit build-up was improperly centeredThumbs down here, looks like overpriced electrode is all. Sorry.
Reply:Bond-o mentioned once using rubber fuel hose over the tip of the rod to protect the threads and do that exact same process.... and you can quench it too if needed.***************************************Lincoln AC225 stick welderLincoln HD100 WeldPak flux core wire feed welderThree of the cheapest grinders money can buy
Reply:I have used that method countless times to remove ceased bolts. Even if the bolt is broken off inside the threads aways it's possible to build up enough to weld a nut on it. I have always just used 7018 to do that though, I do not see the need for any sort of fancy rod for this application.
Reply:i dont know about this......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by KRSBond-o mentioned once using rubber fuel hose over the tip of the rod to protect the threads and do that exact same process.... and you can quench it too if needed.
Reply:Wow class! class! youser......... Guys I 've screwed with a salesman who was selling extralloy for removing broken bolts, his directions was to stay in the center build up then install a flat washer and the weld the nut on with extractalloy so what do I do? well quite simple I burned into the threads on purpose because he wouldn't believe I could do it with wire! I have taken 5/16 exhaust bolts out of heads on cat haul trucks with an sp 100 without removing the heads the trick is to keep it centered even with the over glorified extractalloy same basic principle.I also have removed bolts that are well below the surface using a piece of pipe instead of a nut. Just saying this is nothing new and the earlier post is right it can be done without spending big bucks.
Reply:As a matter of fact, I just got done taking one out of an old Honda head. Used my little Miller with nr-211. The kid had broken off an easy-out about 1/8" below flush trying to get it out. Built up the easy-out and got it out. Built up the bolt and got most of it. Got tired of foolin' around and drilled big hole, welded the hole up and re-tapped it.Kid was happy---no charge.(friend of mine)
Reply:I got beat to the pipe trick. I'v done this with TIG, with 7018, with 6010, with MIG. All work fine. Easiest with 7018, due to the heavy flux and 7018's ability to not crack out a hardened fastener, but when there isn't room, 6010 comes out. On large bolts, TIG is, for me, easiest, since I can build and build and build.Even on small holes, stick works. A hunk of stainless brake line in the hole, run the rod down the center. Aluminum tube works, as well, but won't weld in on a steel fastener. Larger bolts, a stub of 1/8, 1/4, 1/2" pipe. I have never seent hte need for the specialty rod.
Reply:Never had a need for special rod to remove broken studs just a wire feed or stick depending on the job.
Reply:See and this was the first I have herd of this. I am going to give it a shot with the 7018.Drivesector Hobart Handler 140Hobart Handler 180Ready Welder 2Hobart Air Force 400Airco Stinger 225Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."OZZY"
Reply:The rubber hose trick is just about like it sounds... just slip a 2" piece on the end of the rod and it will keep you centered and the rod can slip easily through the hose to add more to the weld.***************************************Lincoln AC225 stick welderLincoln HD100 WeldPak flux core wire feed welderThree of the cheapest grinders money can buy
Reply:I have extracted hundreds of bolts out of machinery, this is generally a clean rust free situation, but 8 out of ten I get out with a hammer and well sharpened punch and just the right amount of tap,tap, tap. I always try this first. WE always avoided welding on any of the machines,computers hate to be spiked and the owners never appreciated having multi million dollar machines sitting there not making money.Dan.Repair Specialties LLC
Reply:There are some places you don't dare break off bolts. Like the small bolts that fasten the exhaust cover plate on outboard motors that have been used in SALT water. Especially , since the steel bolts are threaded into aluminum . And, usually are only 1/4" bolts .[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:Originally Posted by Roy HodgesThere are some places you don't dare break off bolts. Like the small bolts that fasten the exhaust cover plate on outboard motors that have been used in SALT water. Especially , since the steel bolts are threaded into aluminum . And, usually are only 1/4" bolts .
Reply:I need to get a broken bolt out of my dad's NH tractor. The arms that support the underbelly mower deck are bolted to the tractor at the same location where the towers for a front end loader would mount. There is a four bolt group on each side and the mower support arms are mounted on the lower two holes (he does not have a FEL attachment so the upper two holes are currently unused).On one side, one of the two bolts broke off about 1/4" below the casting so none of the remaining bolt is exposed. I haven't measured the bolt diameter but it looks to be about 5/8". Dad says it's been that way for a while so the broken bolt is probably rusted in pretty good. Another potential problem is that there is also a small corner of the casting that is broken off at the broken bolt location. The depth of the broken off part is around about 1/5th of the circumference of a bolt and doesn't go too deep - say about 3/16" so it is probably fine to leave it that way.What is the best way to tackle this with a stick welder? I can get some 7018 if necessary. Since I can't turn the tractor on its side, this will be a vertical welding application. Do I just keep adding tacks to the end of the bolt to build it up until I get a protruding nub to weld to a washer and then a nut? Also, is it OK to just chip the slag off of the end of the build up and leave it in the vicinity of the threads?Do you need to first grind (perhaps by drilling) the end of the broken bolt to get to clean metal?Another alternative will be to try the pipe trick. Perhaps I could find some stainless/alum/copper tubing with the same OD as the broken bolt.
Reply:there really are a number of ways to approach this type of situation, however, the one that I prefer utilizes the GTAW process and stainless steel filler rod. Something that is fairly common with todays engines is having the exhaust studs in aluminum heads shear off when you go to dissassemble them. Whenever possible I have the head removed when I attempt this particular method. Find a way to position the head so that the broken stud hole is in the vertical position so that when you start welding on it you can maintain a weld puddle on top of the stud (this needs to be done at a very low heat with a constant addition of filler material, you may also need to stop every so often so as not to lose control of the puddle and have the built up area collapse or go too far sideways on you). The stainless filler is my choice for rod since it is less likely to be affected by dirt, grease, rust, and othercontaminants. If you use ER70 series fillers you will likely fight the swiss cheese effect to a great degree. The heat generated by the GTAW process will tend to help to break the threads free from the effects of electrolosis, sealants, and other types of retention chemicals that may be in use. As the stud cools after the welding has been done the shrinkage that occurs will also aid in breaking the stud free. Once cooling has taken place, grip the weld build-up with your vise-grips and by working the stud back and forth and unscrewing it a little at a time you will generally be able to remove it. This also works with broken taps and screws and bolts and plugs and many other types of fasteners that might require removal. This works particularly well when you are talking about the removal of hardened and quenched bolts and studs or broken taps since they generally are not readily drilled out with most available methods. With some practice, you can actually remove items as small as a broken 4-40 tap or fastener and you can also reach into holes to depths of 1/2" or more depending on the diameter and your ability to see and stay steady while forming the weld pool and adding the filler material.
Reply:qaqc,Sounds like a good method -thanks for your comments. However, I only have access to a stick welder so that's why I was trying to use the 7818 method.Anyone know where's the best place to find small quantities of stainless tubing?Thanks,~Irish
Reply:I have done many using utetic 680. The flux forms a ring so you stay in the center and weld. I have done it with mig too. Even little bolts with the SP100. Sometimes I end up with a pile of nuts on the floor, but I most always get the bolt out. I have a set of left handed drill bits I try on the bolt first. This also gives me a good clean center. I wled hex nuts on square fill plugs for gearboxes when the plug won't come out.When the bolt gets hot, it expands in all directions. It can't get bigger around because of the threads holding it. When it cools, it cools in all directions the same, so it helps loosen the bolt. Weld a bead around a race inside a blind hole. When it cools, it will fall out. I put the new one in the freezer at work. The hub is warm, the new race is frozen. It slides right in.Looks like another demo. DavidLast edited by David R; 04-21-2008 at 03:54 PM.Real world weldin. When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Yep, never needed a special rod to perform that operation. I do it quite often on logging equipment. I've used 7018, 6010, wire, and tig all with success.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I have used Cronotron stud pulling rods for about 12 years and pulled over a hundred bolts that were really buggered up and deep down into a threaded hole in the horizonatal position without the protection of the slag it never would have came out. Pulled from 1" to a #10 with them after other people tried their methods. I won't be with out them!
Reply:David,I know from a previous thread that you keep Messer 80TAC+ rod on hand. Have you ever used it for broken bolt removal? I like this stuff because it makes a good strong (and pretty) weld but I was wondering if the slag from it would sufficiently protect the threads when using it for broken bolt remoal.Thanks for your input.Once upon a time, about fifteen years ago, I owned a JD350 dozer with 6-way blade which I used for miscellaneous projects like fixing water bars on logging roads, etc. These projects often required me to move some VW-sized rock or pop out a stump that was in an incovienient location. Using the left corner of the blade to dig under these things to get 'em moving worked well, but the process tended to twist the tractor and snap the head off the top one of three 5/8" grade 8 bolts clamping the left steering brake housing to the left frame rail. Even with the noise of the 3-cyl diesel lugging and hearing protectors on I could hear the bolt head pop off with a BANG. Invariably the break would be exactly at the end of the thread, the first couple of times almost 3/4 inch below the surface of the frame rail flange. Being under the operators seat in a small tractor this was not an easy place to get a wrench, never mind any sort of tool to drill a hole for an extractor.The first time this happened I moaned about having to dissassemble half the tractor to get at it but a friend said he could get it out. The 7018 rod method was exactly how he did it. Using a length of 1/8" 7018 and low heat, he built up a "bead" on the broken end of the bolt until it reached the surface of the rail flange. Then he had me pin a large flat washer to the flange around the hole with a long screwdriver while he welded the bead to the washer. Next he welded a nut to the washer then used a 3/8 pneumatic spinner to remove the broken bolt.He said he'd used this trick many times on bolts as small as 7/16 burried as deep as an inch.I don't recall that we had to do this only once or twice, I learned to use bolts that were threaded all the way to the head and I lubricated the threads liberally with light oil when I put them in. When they broke the break was right under the head at the surface of the flange. I was then able to get a small pick onto the fractured surface and manipulate the broken stud out in the field. I got pretty good at it and could replace one in less than 10 minutes with the tractor in a hole on the side of a mountain. Asking that dinky dozer to do some rather tough work this was a common chore so I kept a supply of spare bolts in the tool kit on the tractor.-MondoMember, AWSLincoln ProMIG 140Lincoln AC TombstoneCraftsman Lathe 12 x 24 c1935Atlas MFC Horizontal MillCraftsman Commercial Lathe 12 x 36 c1970- - - I'll just keep on keepin' on.
Reply:The salesman may have been showing you the MG600 electrode. I know that the MG600 is made for that purpose of removing broken bolts. It works about 90% of the time. Also the Harris Super Missleweld rod can do this. The cost is about $30-$40 per pound for the rods.two good things about these rods are; they are 135,000psi+ and have a lots of slag which protects the threads.They do work but are VERY expensive.-Ryan
Reply:I lost count long ago of all the broken bolts I have pulled out of triplex pumps using 7018. Sometimes it comes out on the first try, sometimes it takes 20. Never boogered the threads on one yet. I have also done it with mig when they could bring them in to the shop. One of my best customers had a bolt break off in something (I don't even remember what now) a couple of weeks ago and told me he was going to have to tear it apart and haul it to the machine shop. I told him to get me a half dozen nuts while I finished what I was doing for him and I would get the bolt out. He thought I was nuts, but was smiling when I drove off.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:A co-worker showed me a copy of an article from one of his metalworking magazines that had an article on this subject. It was pretty much in line with this thread but had one other tip for cases where the broken off bolt (or tap) is well below the surface. Instead of using tubing as a sleeve, the guy took a new threaded bolt with the same diameter and thread pitch as the broken bolt and drilled a hole through it to use as the protective sleeve. Run this into the hole as far as possible then fill up with weld. This also eliminates the need to weld the nub to a washer and the washer to a nut. It also should pretty much ensure that the threads are protected.I did a quick test run (without a sleeve) on a new nut with a half threaded in bolt last night. Worked well but I did get a little spatter on the exposed threads as I was building up. I was wondering if some spatter guard spray might have helped prevent this.At any rate, I think that for the real deal, I might try the bolt sleeve trick.
Reply:irish, thanks for the good tip
Reply:This would be a great "How to" Video. Somebody???
Reply:we call it extraction rod where i work. we use it to remove broken bolts on our rammax rollers when standard extractors fail. build it up until you can weld a nut on it. works pretty well in the right handsMillermatic 211weldpack 3200 squirtgunsquare wave 200victory journeyman kitHypertherm 30xptoo much other crap to listtinkerer extraordinaire
Reply:Certanium 707, you can get them down to 1/16". Expensive as hell tho, $100 a lb give or take a bit. You can put the rod up against the broken stud in a deep threaded hole and just let it rip. When the puddle is up to the surface of the hole, stop, give it a bit of a chip and continue to build up the surface of the weld so you can either use a pair of Vice grips on the weld or weld on a nut.I just did this last week on 3 broken exhaust manifold bolts on a &%$$## cab over Hino. 2 were below the surface and 1 was above.I had an old '84 TZ750 that had 4 broken exhaust studs in an aluminum head and usedthe sane method, 3 came out first shot. The other, not so easy, took over an hour of screwing around but it eventually did come out, didn't screw up the threads neither. I was glad I wasn't paying for the rods :-).....Mike
Reply:MrMikey- a TZ750???!! Ooooohhhhh!!!!! The good old days!!!And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Yep, just started riding 5-6 years ago (52 now) and that was my first and I picked it up (an '82) for $500. Good shape other than it had sat for 8 years with fuel in it. Stripped the carbs down, cleaned and coated the fuel tank and removed the aforementioned exhaust.Ended up making a complete exhaust, mufflers the whole shebang, damn that thing worked good, too good actually.Went from that to a '99 750 Shadow and my current an '04 Kawi Vulcan Classic 1500.Sorry Drivesector, didn't mean to hijack your post...Mike
Reply:IrishBrewer, my Messer book doesn't say anything about using their 80 T-AC Plus rod for that purpose but the easy restarting characteristics might mean its coating is fairly conductive which might be a problem in deeper holes. Messer recommends their MG600 for this purpose; they also recommend it for repairing leaf springs.All-State calls their stud removal product "All-Stare Stud Plus" and show it being used in the same way. I think I've seen other companies advertise a similar product too.I have used the ordinary materials for this purpose before, but can see where the specialty rod with its coating designed for the purpose could make a difference in really difficult situations. I think I might call a Rep. and see if I could get a sample rod or two! Edit: [I guess I must not have gotten to the second page and last post before responding! I am just repeating aready said things!!]Last edited by Oldiron2; 08-13-2008 at 11:32 AM.Reason: Given above
Reply:I had a few of these rods in the tool box and they worked great salesman did the demo and I was amazed. used the rods over about 4 years till I used them up worked great but the rods were $20 each worth it for the right job ( manifold bolts was what I used 90% on)
Reply:I remove broken bolts all the time using various welding methods as above. No special rod needed. On a few that were deep I just transfer punched and drilled it out using drill size for threads. Run a tap in and presto. But I also told the mechs that on A frames for dozers, or anything thats been in the dirt a while, tighten the bolt first, then remove, you break a lot less. They like to get the 3/4 impact and rip them out. If they just hit it tighter a few whacks, then back em out....
Reply:here is a compactor i was working on yesterday. had a broken engine mounting bolt. 8mm bolt about a 1/4'' below the surface. i did the usual process starting with a reverse drill bit then moving to an easy out. then that failed. the easy out broke off in the bolt. i ended up using some 3/32 extraction rod. weld a little, let cool,weld a little let cool(xhipping the slag inbetween). once i built it up about 1/2'' i was able to weld a nut on and remove the bolt. i forgot to get the numbers of the rod for you guys. just thought i would sharebtw, that welder there is one of the best ones ive run Attached ImagesMillermatic 211weldpack 3200 squirtgunsquare wave 200victory journeyman kitHypertherm 30xptoo much other crap to listtinkerer extraordinaire
Reply:Broken stud or bolt removal using an stick welder is very easy and saves a great deal of time and money. I have been doing this for more years than I care to remember. Over those years I have used just about every 'extractor' electrode out there and they can be very expensive. The best in both price and performance I think is High Performace Products 150. Less money than the Cronatron or Extractalloy versions. Procedure is same for all.
Reply:I have been using X-ergon Xtractaloy rod for many years, they claim it has a special aluminum flux that actually lubricates the threads on the way out......maybe it does, maybe it does'nt..........I do know that I really like what they call their "ignitor tip" on the end of each electrode, it works very, very well. My situation is a little different than alot of you guys, I am usually maintaining a large fleet of mining equipment, and time IS money, so If I have to spend 5-10 dollars a stick for something that truly WORKS, and works well then I do it.I have used 7018, different stainless electrodes, pipes, rods,,,,you nome it.........but Xtractalloy seems to work the best for me and I use it 2 or 3 times a week.--Matt6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:Originally Posted by Bob GrossBroken stud or bolt removal using an stick welder is very easy and saves a great deal of time and money. I have been doing this for more years than I care to remember. Over those years I have used just about every 'extractor' electrode out there and they can be very expensive. The best in both price and performance I think is High Performace Products 150. Less money than the Cronatron or Extractalloy versions. Procedure is same for all.
Reply:Originally Posted by mrmikeyCertanium 707, you can get them down to 1/16". Expensive as hell tho, $100 a lb give or take a bit. You can put the rod up against the broken stud in a deep threaded hole and just let it rip. When the puddle is up to the surface of the hole, stop, give it a bit of a chip and continue to build up the surface of the weld so you can either use a pair of Vice grips on the weld or weld on a nut.I just did this last week on 3 broken exhaust manifold bolts on a &%$$## cab over Hino. 2 were below the surface and 1 was above.I had an old '84 TZ750 that had 4 broken exhaust studs in an aluminum head and usedthe sane method, 3 came out first shot. The other, not so easy, took over an hour of screwing around but it eventually did come out, didn't screw up the threads neither. I was glad I wasn't paying for the rods :-).....Mike
Reply:i was thinking 333. I know it came from a cronatron sales man, but I can not remember if it is certanium or not. I have used it alot, and it works well.Bruce DeLaetHeavy Equipment Mechanic and Welder1948 SA-200 short hood1949 LincWelder 1801963 SA-200 red faceMiller S-32-P |
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发表于 2021-8-31 22:42:28