Building a new shop. Wouldn't mind some input from the bottom to the top

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I have been thinking about building a new  personal shop for the past five years.   I am very much out of room in my old one (to many hobbies).    Last fall I finally decided to pull the trigger and got the dirt work done.My plan is build a 40x60x16 on a concrete slab with two 20 foot "lean tos"  on each side for possible future expansion.   I plan to have a dedicated power source.  The frame will be metal and will be covered with metal tin. That's about as far ive gotten in the planning stages.  My dad wants to help me put it up.   I'm weighing kits versus just doing the whole thing.Does anyone that has built a shop recently or in the near past have any advice, tips, caveats, etc.?    I'm open to any advice.Thanks in advance for taking time to respond.
Reply:What abut using shipping containers and a fabric/tarp cover-all building sitting on top? (cut open the containers inside facing your pad)
Reply:If you have specific questions on concrete I can probably help you out there having pour crete for quite a few years. Slab is bigger than I'd suggest most take on on their own without a fair amount of labor to help with the pour and preferably at least one person with experience. 6" thick you are looking at a minimum of 45-50 yards assuming your stone grade is dead on.  Closer to 60 yards wouldn't surprise me if you shoot for a true 6" of crete and don't cheat. Then there's whatever you need for footings..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by RustydogI am thinking about getting someone that does concrete for a living to pour slab.   I've gotten one bid so far.My dad suggested getting a 1.5 inch "lip" on the edge of slab to help set the metal on and a vapor barrier.Any other concrete suggestions?
Reply:Something I will definitely do on my next building is run all the electrical home runs under the pad. I ran one to the corner of every wall of my shop and then one to my storage side. When my buddy wired it it was simple to fish the wires thru the conduit. Saved a LOT of cost especially with as many 220v outlets I have. After I got my fill established and compacted I made little trenches to put the conduit in. Then came back and smoothed out and compacted over them again. This is really convient if you want to add an outlet or change something down the road.-DoogieMiller 350PMiller Trailblazer 325 EFI w/ Excel PowerLincoln LN25 suitcase welderXMT 304/22a feederMiller Syncrowave 350LXMiller EconotigHobart Handler 140(2) Uni-Hydro 42-14Hypertherm 65 plasmaWEBB Gap bed lathe
Reply:Poured many thousand yards concrete down south near you. As DSW stated, forget forming up any ledges on outer perimeter of slab, just keep floor well above existing grade and lap siding over edge. where sole plates should be attached right along edges of slab....Most metal building kits call for a ledge to be cast in edges of slab, but ignore that requirement. They will only trap water and rust lower edges of siding panels.As also stated, excavate into undisturbed soil as required to establish proper dimension perimeter footings designed to support exterior walls/roof....don't worry too much about frost line because you Mississippi guys like us Louisianny guys get away cheap with rather shallow footings when it comes to frost heave considerations.There was a time here 30 years ago, that everyone used crushed white rock as ballast/drainage under slabs, but no longer...We discovered clean river sand was much more plentiful and whole lots cheaper.So, the way we do it now a days is scrape off topsoil...excavate down to level playing surface and stop if proposed slab will be higher than surrounding grade-if we need to build up, then backfill with proper soil and compact....then erect forms and dig footings.......haul in and spread several inches river sand, lay wire and rebar the footings and make one monolithic pour where plastic vapor barrier goes down under wire if gonna be covered by roof-no plastic if uncovered slab.Once slab few days old, pull forms and cut expansion joints with power saw, then fill joints with paving caulk.If you want really decent concrete shop floor that is easy to keep swept clean and will hold up to heavy abrasion, then have concrete finish team scatter in iron filings once they paddle soup up, and yeah, trust me you want a paddle machine finish on your shop floor, not a hand troweled and broom finish....And MAKE CERTAIN to instruct redimix plant to NOT add flyash to mix. The redimix salesman will scream flyash is approved and won't degrade your slab and all sortsa chit, but stick to your guns and say NO FLYASH!! or you will watch you shop floor spalling eventually. They use flyash as an admix in place of Portland cement because it is a free byproduct of coal fired powerplants where Portland cement is expensive, but they charge you same.If you plan to add entrance/parking apron at shop door, then form in and add before pour proper epoxy coated steel dowel rods to keep aprons forever where you want them in relation to shop floor....Yes, the aprons should be broom finished....and if you gonna use curved down edged hand trowel for pretty edge, use it there at all shop door entrances.ALWAYS install plastic vapor barrier under slab if you intend to roof over it and wall it in....NEVER use vapor barrier under slab if not intended to roof over even under carports.When I built my shop, I looked ahead and stubbed in a 4" toilet flange, a 3/4 water line, and a 1 1/2" PVC electrical feed when I set the forms and simply wrapped the open ends in duct tabe...surenuff, a few years later I installed a toilet and sink and ran 200 Amps to it...The only thing I got running overhead is cable TV and cat5e security camera cables...If I'da thunk about it then, those also would be underground now.Last edited by wornoutoldwelder; 03-19-2015 at 05:28 AM.
Reply:Interesting take on plastic wornoutwelder. Shows how different areas of the country do things different. Makes sense with sand. No sharp edges to poke holes in plastic, and sand stays damp when wet even if it drains, so concrete in this case may wick up water.Never seen the trick with iron filings done. They do a similar thing around here with trap rock for heavy use industrial floors. Usually using portland covered 1/2" or 3/8" rock. The color hardener we used to use to do stamped concrete can give  a similar hard surface to the concrete as the extra sand/portland on top increases the cement to water ratio giving the effect of a higher psi crete on top..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:My shop was here when I bought this property ... I wish it was insulated. Cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter. If you've not considered insulation that is!!Located In SE OklahomaLincoln Mig 135Hobart Ironman 230 Mig5x10 CNC Table with DTHC & FTHypertherm PM65 on the tableMiller Bobcatwww.caneyagequipment.com
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWInteresting take on plastic wornoutwelder. Shows how different areas of the country do things different. Makes sense with sand. No sharp edges to poke holes in plastic, and sand stays damp when wet even if it drains, so concrete in this case may wick up water.Never seen the trick with iron filings done. They do a similar thing around here with trap rock for heavy use industrial floors. Usually using portland covered 1/2" or 3/8" rock. The color hardener we used to use to do stamped concrete can give  a similar hard surface to the concrete as the extra sand/portland on top increases the cement to water ratio giving the effect of a higher psi crete on top.
Reply:If I ever have the chance to build another shop the number one requirement is in floor radiant heat.My shop is pretty easy to heat but it sure would be nice to have warm feet or not freeze if I have to get down on the floor for some reason.
Reply:I'd agree my shop would have radiant floor heat, but I doubt in Mississippi he really needs it. Geothermal AC is probably more in line with what a shop down there might want. That and boat loads of wall and roof insulation to keep out the heat..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by vwguy3If I ever have the chance to build another shop the number one requirement is in floor radiant heat.My shop is pretty easy to heat but it sure would be nice to have warm feet or not freeze if I have to get down on the floor for some reason.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI'd agree my shop would have radiant floor heat, but I doubt in Mississippi he really needs it. Geothermal AC is probably more in line with what a shop down there might want. That and boat loads of wall and roof insulation to keep out the heat.
Reply:Originally Posted by vwguy3If I ever have the chance to build another shop the number one requirement is in floor radiant heat.My shop is pretty easy to heat but it sure would be nice to have warm feet or not freeze if I have to get down on the floor for some reason.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI'd agree my shop would have radiant floor heat, but I doubt in Mississippi he really needs it. Geothermal AC is probably more in line with what a shop down there might want. That and boat loads of wall and roof insulation to keep out the heat.
Reply:Originally Posted by wornoutoldwelderBelieve it or not, it is an actual economic reality down here that if you add a simple second roof using light cheap shiny galvalume metal roof spaced a foot above existing wood or metal roof and open at the soffets and ridges it will reduce interior temps to ambient shade or below.
Reply:For you guys thinking you can save money and get you and your in laws together to spread and finish a 40X60 shop slab, then think again. because you gonna look up and see about 8 redimix trucks lined up churning and looking to dump where that mix is getting hot and can't wait....If you ain't never been knee deep in a sea of concrete everyday, then you ain't ready to deal with even one load.The only way you will save money on a pour that large is to do the dirt work yourself and the forming and footings and vapor barrier, wire and rebar, where you call the redimix salesman out to estimate after you stake t out, and make sure he places the order with a + after the total yds , and then he will tell you when to have it ready for him and his finishing team.That way when all them trucks line up and dump 50 yards of fast setting forever, if they get behind, it's on them to bust it up and repour, not you. You just say you want this many square surface ft of 4500lb mix with no flyash and powered iron surface machine troweled mirror finished concrete....He will then calculate the yardage based on area, thickness and footings and pen you out an offer and a window of when you need to be formed up and ready...If you talk the talk, he will walk the walk.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWThat makes sense. I've seen something similar in a lot of older buildings.  The old clerestory windows in the cupolas of factory buildings to let out heat and provide ventilation worked in a similar way back before AC. Still pretty hot in the shade down south though.I'm a big fan of stress skin panels developed from the freezer industry. 2 layers of plywood/drywall bonded with 4-12+ inches of expanding foam. Panels are strong enough to be used as bearing walls or free span floor/roof  assemblies. IIRC under normal load conditions, you can span them like 2x floor joists, depth in feet + 2, so a 12" thick panel easily spans 14' unsupported in a floor condition. Might even be able to get away with a longer span. Been a bit since I check the load charts on them. R values are typically R7 to R8 per inch from what I remember.
Reply:Originally Posted by wornoutoldwelderFor you guys thinking you can save money and get you and your in laws together to spread and finish a 40X60 shop slab, then think again. because you gonna look up and see about 8 redimix trucks lined up churning and looking to dump where that mix is getting hot and can't wait....If you ain't never been knee deep in a sea of concrete everyday, then you ain't ready to deal with even one load.
Reply:I see fellas tear down old barns that are 70 or 80 years old, because in their words, "I can't justify spending $30,000 on tinning the roof." They put up big pole barns instead. I see their point, but I don't think they understand that in 40 years their new pole barn is dozer bait. Those poles will be rotted thin at the ground level. The old barn at least had a frost footing and could have stood for 100 years or more. There are houses and buildings in the old world that are several hundred years old.My point is, I prefer a concrete footing or at least a floating concrete slab. Large shops would be too expensive to build like this, of course. I understand that. Also, I highly recommend using chairs on the rebar when preparing to pour the concrete floor. I've seen quite a few contractors simply pull up on the rebar as they spread the cement over the top of them. The rebar sinks back down to the bottom of the pour. The chairs are cheap and they keep the rebar up inside the slab where they belong. Rebar that is half in the gravel and half in the concrete doesn't do any good at all.I went with 5 1/2" thick with 1/2" rebar on chairs tied on a 2' x 2' grid. Due to the fact that it gets cold here in Minnesota, they added a chemical to the mixer when they arrived at my site. It adds air to the cement to help prevent cracking when it's cured. It must work, because we poured on September of 2013 and that was one really cold winter for us. My shop is 20' x 24'. I didn't go with any score lines and I'm glad I didn't. My base was two feet of sand and gravel, dry as a bone when we poured.KevCentury 100 | Miller 250 | ESAB 353Who is Dan Well? Everyone always says to me, "You know Dan Well!"
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWWhile I wouldn't recomend it for someone unskilled in doing pours, a slab that size is doable in sections, but you won't get quite as good a job as if it was done all in one shot.  Form it out in 10' wide slabs and pour 1/4 at a time.There are also additives you can add to make your life easier on a slab like that. Super P can turn a stiff 2 slump into an 8 or 9 slump and be just about self leveling. Hardest part with that is keeping the wire down when the driver revs up the mixer and the  crete starts shooting out, or keeping it from slumping down between trucks if they don't send them all at once. Retarder will give you extra working time to place the crete without is setting up. Down side is when down, you'll need to wait until the admixes kick out before you can start really finishing the slab. We used to keep small bags of retarder on our trucks for pours. one bag, one yard, one hour retarded set. We could pour out 5 yards of a 10 yard truck, then toss in 5 bags of retarder and have the last 5 yards set up 1 hour behind the 1st 1/2 of the pour. Stuff also acts like a water reducer and wets up the mix as well. They even make accelerator if you need stuff to set faster for some reason. We'd often use that in the fall and winter to speed up the set so we could finish it faster.
Reply:Great tips so far.   Right now im leaning toward letting a concrete person do the concrete work.  1.   Is 4 inches thick enough?2.  Do I need termite treatment?
Reply:Originally Posted by wornoutoldwelderThose drivers are gonna back up, drop the chute and squirt mix up your butt and laff as they drive off to wash down.
Reply:4" is enough for light to general use. I'd go 5-6" in a shop that regularly deals with vehicles or equipment, or if you are putting in heavy shop tools ( lathe mill etc)Problem with 4" is many cheap contractors like to "cheat". 4" starts out as 3 1/2 ( 2x4) at the edge and it's not hard to thin that to 3" or less in the center if grade is off ( deliberately or not) Slabs like that then tend to want to crack as they are quite thin. Thicker slabs hold up better if things aren't perfect. Crete is thinner than expected for some reason, sub grade didn't get compacted quite as well or has soft spots etc.For me, a small garage could have 4", but in a big shop, I'd want at least 5" minimum. 6" (2x6 height then compacted) would be my choice for a large general shop. 8"+ would be my choice for a heavy truck shop bay or heavy equipment ( loaders dozers etc.) or really heavy shop tools.Concrete is cheap compared to a cracked floor..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:My existing shop is a pole structure because that's what the previous owner built but if I could build it my way I would pour footings and then either stub walls or lay block up 3 or 4 feet and then frame on that.My fat azz pouring a floor?Originally Posted by KevI see fellas tear down old barns that are 70 or 80 years old, because in their words, "I can't justify spending $30,000 on tinning the roof." They put up big pole barns instead. I see their point, but I don't think they understand that in 40 years their new pole barn is dozer bait. Those poles will be rotted thin at the ground level. The old barn at least had a frost footing and could have stood for 100 years or more. There are houses and buildings in the old world that are several hundred years old.
Reply:Originally Posted by vwguy3If I ever have the chance to build another shop the number one requirement is in floor radiant heat.My shop is pretty easy to heat but it sure would be nice to have warm feet or not freeze if I have to get down on the floor for some reason.
Reply:Originally Posted by K6090It would cost less than building pole barn....and $30k?? I could rebuild a whole barn with that...Anyone with a cordless drill and half a sense can re-roof a barn.I agree. Nothing wrong with saving old barns...like anything, they need maintenance and sensibility of use
Reply:Originally Posted by derekpfeifferIt is so nice!! By far the best money I spent while building my shop. Snow/ice melts off and dries quickly, the recovery time is incredible, quiet, takes no floor space, and is VERY economical!!
Reply:Plotted out lines and picts before the pour go a long ways when you need to set anchors and so on.  Nice thing about using mats is you know the lines are on say 12" centers. If you know how far off your outside walls your 1st line is, it's not to hard to get a fairly accurate layout of the lines. Plan ahead and leave plenty of room around stationary items you want to anchor later, like vehicle lifts and so on.It also helps if you pour your floor extra thick with the lines down low..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Plotted out lines and picts before the pour go a long ways when you need to set anchors and so on.  Nice thing about using mats is you know the lines are on say 12" centers. If you know how far off your outside walls your 1st line is, it's not to hard to get a fairly accurate layout of the lines. Plan ahead and leave plenty of room around stationary items you want to anchor later, like vehicle lifts and so on.It also helps if you pour your floor extra thick with the lines down low..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I have yet to anchor anything yet. I used a ramset to hold my interior walls stationary while the PL-400 was setting up, but that's it. My floor is 5.5" thick with 1/2" rebar on 2' centers.-DoogieMiller 350PMiller Trailblazer 325 EFI w/ Excel PowerLincoln LN25 suitcase welderXMT 304/22a feederMiller Syncrowave 350LXMiller EconotigHobart Handler 140(2) Uni-Hydro 42-14Hypertherm 65 plasmaWEBB Gap bed lathe
Reply:Originally Posted by KevFloor heat really is hard to beat. I seriously thought about doing it, then I thought about some day mounting a car hoist, my floor mount drill press, bathroom wall anchors . . . I just didn't want to drill into one of my heat tubes. I realize the heat tubes could be carefully plotted out and mapped, but I just figured that my shop is small and a hot dawg heater will do the job nicely.I do like the idea of floor heat.Kev
Reply:Originally Posted by derekpfeifferI have yet to anchor anything yet. I used a ramset to hold my interior walls stationary while the PL-400 was setting up, but that's it. My floor is 5.5" thick with 1/2" rebar on 2' centers.
Reply:Originally Posted by KevI like seeing those rebar chairs! Kev
Reply:the outside lip helps to close off all of those mouse entrance doors. or you can get a special crimper to flatten th metal for that purpose.the lip also speeds up hanging the metal at the right height with less effort. another thing worth considering in your area is thermal isolating the slab from the footing at the perimeter.miller thunderbolt 250vlincoln square wave tig 175 prolincoln idealarc mig sp250everlast tig 210EXTeverlast power plasma 50chicago electric (hf) 130 tig/90 arcchicago electric 90 amp flux wire3 sets oxy/acet
Reply:Thanks everyone for the input on the concrete.   Does anyone have any frame and building structure tips.    How does pole barn versus slab and stick versus metal frame compare in long term?    My dad seems set on me framing it in metal but his pole barn built 25 years ago is still very solid and was much cheaper.
Reply:I went metal frame on my last building 40x80 and i'm happy with it. be aware that you need a healthy fork truck to unload the metal building from the flat-bed .miller thunderbolt 250vlincoln square wave tig 175 prolincoln idealarc mig sp250everlast tig 210EXTeverlast power plasma 50chicago electric (hf) 130 tig/90 arcchicago electric 90 amp flux wire3 sets oxy/acet
Reply:Pole building is great for storage...but a shop/workplace you want a STEEL frame building....#1 on just a regular steel frame you can mount outrigger beams to support a crane runway.........( I have a 3 ton runway) not guessing "engineer stamped".... #2  Headroom the more the better ....I only have 13'-6" wish I had more!!!!!!! #3  Put all doors as close to a corner as possible ....gives more useable wall space.....#4   Install a lean-to roof which is easier to install than a peak roof...also can go steeper on the slope and less prone for leaks......
Reply:Originally Posted by RustydogGreat tips so far.   Right now im leaning toward letting a concrete person do the concrete work.  1.   Is 4 inches thick enough?2.  Do I need termite treatment?
Reply:Originally Posted by newburyAnother factor is lighting.  LED is the way to go now.  Last year I would have said T5 but LED prices (on 4' utility lights) have dropped down to about $40 for 3200 lumens, and consume only about 36 watts.  They are light, easy to hang, quick to start.good luck.
Reply:Originally Posted by vwguy3Link or source please?I used 2 bulb T12 cheapy fixtures and they have served well for 15 yrs but if there is something better and longer life it would be worth investigating when I change out fixtures.