Spray Arc

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I'd thought I'd try to start a thread on the various aspects of spray arc/pulse spray welding with MIG.As this is a area of welding that the Newbies and even some of the older guys aren't familiar with,  I want to challenge any and all experts or even amateurs to post up welds, comments, types of machines they use to do it, settings, gas mixture etc.  Here's some of mine. I may have posted some of these pics before that I did with my ESAB with C18 gas from AirGas but never explained that it was a spray process.  I used ESAB wire with ER70-S6 rating.  These melted my helmet btw.  RIP HF 49.00 special. Attached ImagesEsab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Welds look good, you forgot the settings.  Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Unfortunately,ESAB doesn't give voltage settings... But wire feed about 6.25 out of 10.  High range with heat setting at 4 out of 10.  280 amp rated welder.  I have wanted a digital output for my machine, but never got around to ponying up the $$$ for the add on.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldUnfortunately,ESAB doesn't give voltage settings... But wire feed about 6.25 out of 10.  High range with heat setting at 4 out of 10.  280 amp rated welder.  I have wanted a digital output for my machine, but never got around to ponying up the $$$ for the add on.
Reply:Absolutely perfect, from beginning to ending. No crater.  That Hobart wire...what is the AWS classification?  I don't recognize that one.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldAbsolutely perfect, from beginning to ending. No crater.  That Hobart wire...what is the AWS classification?  I don't recognize that one.
Reply:This was 3x3x3/16 angle 6" long welded to 2x3/16 flat bar, 1/8" gap, flat position, with welding table acting as backing plate, Millermatic 350P, pulse, 300 ipm, .035 ER70S-6.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I don't see the pics...Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Sorry, the computer crashed when I was tryin to get the pics onto the post.  They're kinda blurry but here they are--backside-MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:seeing these pics makes me want a bigger mig so bad.im guessing when u do spray u need to move a bit faster then u normaly would?
Reply:I definitely fall into the newbie area, so much so that I have to ask ... what is spray arc / pulse spray welding? The welds looks fantastic.
Reply:It deposits metal faster, faster yes.  But it is also not for really light gauge material as the process generates lots of heat.    Speed of forward movement depends on the type of weld as well. Here's a textbook definition In spray transfer very fine droplets or particles of the wire are rapidly projected through the arc from the end of the electrode to  the work piece in the direction in which the electrode is pointed.  While in the process of transferring through the welding arc, the metal particles do not interrupt the plow of current and there is virtually a constant "spray" of material.  Spray transfer requires a high current density.  With high current the arc becomes a steady quiet column with a well defined narrow incandescent cone shape.  The use of argon (or suitable high argon content mix) is necessary because it produces a "pinching" effect on the molten tip of the electrode permitting only small droplets to form and transfer during the welding process.  With high heat input, heavy wire electrodes will melt readily and deep weld penetration becomes possible.  Since the individual drops are small, the arc is stable and can be directed where required.Pulse is similar, except that through automatic modulation of the current allows the weld to cool while the current drops into the globular transfer range momentarily before returning to spray range. It helps in out of position welds.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Just a few more questions.Would you only use spray transfer on heavy guage material where good penetration is needed?Do you need a special type of welding machine to do it?I can see the welds are very neat, but why and when would you use spray transfer?Thanks again.
Reply:I have the pulse feature on my (new to me) MM350P.  I haven't gotten to play with it much but it makes a hell of a sound cranked up on pulse!  I don't understand the wire setting in the pulse mode, I don't think it reads it in ipm.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Originally Posted by siringoJust a few more questions.Would you only use spray transfer on heavy guage material where good penetration is needed?Do you need a special type of welding machine to do it?I can see the welds are very neat, but why and when would you use spray transfer?Thanks again.
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldI think that you will need a machine that goes well over 180 amps and machines able to generate 28 volts or greater, to sustain any extended sessions of spray.  Some people report being able to do it with smaller machines, but I am suspicious that  they are "nearly" at spray levels and at the higher end of globular transfer.  Any material over about 3/16 is a candidate if controlling the heat or possble warpage is not an issue.  Generally,  I only use it on 5/16 or greater material. As to why and when:  Any time a neat clean job with no cleanup is prefered is a reason.  Also time factors could be a consideration.
Reply:do u think a HH140 could get to globular transfer on straight argon. my guess is no. i might just have to go to my buddys and use his 210 hobart
Reply:I don't think you could get close.  However, I haven't tried it with such a light machine.  I doubt it has enough arc density.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Whats the smallest wire gauge you can use .35?I am looking in my Acklands catolog and all they have is .45?
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldI'd thought I'd try to start a thread on the various aspects of spray arc/pulse spray welding with MIG.As this is a area of welding that the Newbies and even some of the older guys aren't familiar with,  I want to challenge any and all experts or even amateurs to post up welds, comments, types of machines they use to do it, settings, gas mixture etc.  Here's some of mine. I may have posted some of these pics before that I did with my ESAB with C18 gas from AirGas but never explained that it was a spray process.  I used ESAB wire with ER70-S6 rating.  These melted my helmet btw.  RIP HF 49.00 special.
Reply:Originally Posted by littlefuzzI have the pulse feature on my (new to me) MM350P.  I haven't gotten to play with it much but it makes a hell of a sound cranked up on pulse!  I don't understand the wire setting in the pulse mode, I don't think it reads it in ipm.
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldIt deposits metal faster, faster yes.  But it is also not for really light gauge material as the process generates lots of heat.    Speed of forward movement depends on the type of weld as well. Here's a textbook definition In spray transfer very fine droplets or particles of the wire are rapidly projected through the arc from the end of the electrode to  the work piece in the direction in which the electrode is pointed.  While in the process of transferring through the welding arc, the metal particles do not interrupt the plow of current and there is virtually a constant "spray" of material.  Spray transfer requires a high current density.  With high current the arc becomes a steady quiet column with a well defined narrow incandescent cone shape.  The use of argon (or suitable high argon content mix) is necessary because it produces a "pinching" effect on the molten tip of the electrode permitting only small droplets to form and transfer during the welding process.  With high heat input, heavy wire electrodes will melt readily and deep weld penetration becomes possible.  Since the individual drops are small, the arc is stable and can be directed where required.Pulse is similar, except that through automatic modulation of the current allows the weld to cool while the current drops into the globular transfer range momentarily before returning to spray range. It helps in out of position welds.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldrwomnI just hooked up a pendant to the miller maxtron at work and it sound like a very loud duck with very bad gas.  everybody walking by my work area snickers and makes rude comments, but you should see the welds it puts out - fantastic in all positions.
Reply:Wagin, You are not spray welding.  C/25 may look like its spraying but its not.  This has been discussed here a lot.  If you had true spray, the gun would melt down.  Try some 98/2 and see the difference.  .030 wire is as big as that machine will spray, it doesn't have enough balls.I have tried it with c/25 and with 30+ volts I can get something like spray, but I have no control of the arc.  155 amps is the minimum with 98/2.    When it goes from globular to true spray the arc makes a loud crack.  If its just on the edge, it will continue to crackle as you weld telling you not enough volts or amps.  Hook a wire feed to your trailblazer and use 98/2.  It should do it.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by littlefuzzI have the pulse feature on my (new to me) MM350P.  I haven't gotten to play with it much but it makes a hell of a sound cranked up on pulse!  I don't understand the wire setting in the pulse mode, I don't think it reads it in ipm.In no particular order:C18 is 18% CO2 and the remaining 82% argon.  If the gas supplier is a bit 'off' in their mix percentages, you end up with C15 or so which is closer to a 'spray' percentage mix.  C8 or C12 can usually do spray transfer with enough machine, C25 really can't do spray for all practical purposes.  As David (and some others) have posted, if you crank up a big enough machine behind some C25 you get an uncontrollable spray kind of thing going on.Getting into spray transfer mode depends on the gas mix and the wire diameter.  Bigger wire takes more ooomph and a 180-class machine typically doesn't have enough oomph to get into spray.  Spray transfer on steel using 0.030 wire (solid, not a cored wire as cored wires are different beasts) and 98-2 argon-O2 would be something like 150 amps and 24 volts minimum.  Instead of the sizzle/crackle sound of typical short-circuit transfer mode, it is a hiss/whoosh sound with fast wires feed speeds and no spatter and lots of heat.  Pulsed spray can have other sounds (a loud duck with bad gas, eh weldrwomn ?   ).Dan, nice welds there.  Dang, those are some straight and smooth beads.  Same "Dan" as on some of the 'other' welding sites, like the manufacturer-related ones that start with an H or an M?wagin,Like David said, hook up a wire feeder to the Trailblazer and use some 98-2 argon-O2 and you too can do spray.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Moonrise,I have consulted many sources and most will state a minimum of 80 percent argon to spray.  Old school thought was 100 percent argon or 98/2 O2.  But as technolgies have improved, and better machines have come along, and people push the envelope, the recommedations have changed.  My Mig Master will spray easily with 75 25, though it is as David says, less controllable but again that depends on the machine.  Of course, it takes ever increasing higher volts and amps to to so.  C-18 is a proprietary blend from Air Gas.  It is recommended for spray.  I have used enough tanks to know it isn't a "fluke".  It is consistent and when I drop down to 15 percent CO2,  I notice a difference in the bead.   Interestingly,  when I use the C18, without a pulse mechanism,  I can do out of position welds, except,  overhead.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by David RWagin, You are not spray welding.  C/25 may look like its spraying but its not.  This has been discussed here a lot.  If you had true spray, the gun would melt down.  Try some 98/2 and see the difference.  .030 wire is as big as that machine will spray, it doesn't have enough balls.I have tried it with c/25 and with 30+ volts I can get something like spray, but I have no control of the arc.  155 amps is the minimum with 98/2.    When it goes from globular to true spray the arc makes a loud crack.  If its just on the edge, it will continue to crackle as you weld telling you not enough volts or amps.  Hook a wire feed to your trailblazer and use 98/2.  It should do it.David
Reply:I've never tried 100% argon to mig. Some say it won't work, some say it will?I've used pure helium to achieve greater heat when tigging alum. would helium work for mig welding?Miller TrailBlazer 251Miller HF-250-1Miller MaxStar 150 STLHyperTherm PowerMax 380 plasmaLincoln PowerMig 180Millermatic 252Miller Diversion 180
Reply:Sorry, no matter the shielding gas, the best the the PM 180C is going to do with an .030 or .035 solid wire and shielding is shallow penetration short circuit transfer. The unit doesn't output enough top end voltage to do anything else. Switching to an E71T-11 self -shielded fluxcore will give you a hotter weld.If the 180C top end isn't robust enough for your needs, I'd definitely recommend upgrading  to a larger unit that is designed to meet your needs. In my opinion with solid wire on anything critical the PM 180C is a 3/16" and thinner unit. Ok, maybe 1/4" in multiple passes. I limit mine to 3/16" and thinner though.
Reply:I have never used a 180.  If you want try some 98/2 and see how it works with .030 wire.  Pay attention to the duty cycle of your welder and gun. The 02 brings up the temp of the arc.  Its a reactive gas.I tried pure argon short circuit.  It didn't work for me.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:When you're in true spray transfer, the arc will barely make a sound. It's very quiet.
Reply:That 180 might do it with .023 wire and 98/2 gas.   If you just want the clean spray weld on something not too thick, that might work.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Can you short circuit w/ the 98/2? and get rid of the 75/25 so I can spray and short circuit without having to hassle with extra bottle. thanks for the great info greg
Reply:Sure,  you should, but why not get some 85/15 or 82/18 where it will be better suited for either?Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I forgot to take pics of my welds before I painted the housing of my positioner.Here's a shot as it sits, painted. This was pulsed spray.Material:  HRS 1/4" (horizontal)  HRS 3/16" (vertical)Joint:  Open Butt Fillet...plates clamped to a piece of angleGas:  Ar/C02  92/8%Filler: ER70-2  .035"Machine: Lincoln PM300WFS:  275 ipmWhat exactly are the little glassy slag like deposits caused by? I noticed a few on my welds and see them in a couple of the other posted pics, as well.RexLast edited by rode2rouen; 05-06-2009 at 12:08 AM.Reason: spellage
Reply:rode,Those little glassy-like slag deposits are little glassy like slag deposits.Of silicon.    One of the deoxidizers in most MIG wires.  Also know as silicon islands.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:How about dual shield?  That is spray transfer, no?  We run that at work for most structural welding.  It's much faster than flux core or stick.  MIG requires too much prep for our application.  The spray transfer can fill large gaps, 1/2"+ easily.
Reply:I agree that spray arc requires high voltage/amperage.  Usually more than a 180 class machine can output.  There may be some way, with really thin wire, spary arc can be achieved momentarily with that kind of setup but it's not for production.98-2 (Ar-Ox) yields spray arc with a cooler (not red hot) mig nozzle than you will find with 92-8 (Ar-C02).  If you have a 400A mig gun and power to spare, spray arc is feasible with 92-8 (Ar-C02), but with 300A equipment and 98-2 (Ar-Ox) it is easier to do on an ongoing basis.ScottMiller XMT 350 CC/CV w/gas solenoid opt.Miller S-22A wirefeederBernard 400A "Q" gunMiller Spoolmatic 30A / WC-24C-K 200A torch/gas lensWeldcraft WC-18 watercooled torchHypertherm Powermax 30Victor O/A
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseThose little glassy-like slag deposits are little glassy like slag deposits.
Reply:Dan,Where did you find the digital panel for so cheap? Everywhere I look they run about 2x that. I wish my welds looked that good, I just dont have a steady enough hand!I can get my MM to spray at about the same settings but the problem I run into is the nozzle on my MT200 will glow redhot after about 4" of bead. Right now I'm using the medium length tip that sits recessed about 1/8" into the nozzle, should I use the long tip that will protrude 1/8" past the nozzle?
Reply:I was taught that to achieve spray transfer, the minimum was 90% argon and 21 volts.  could be wrong, but from what everyone else is saying that seems to be in the ball park.  I never use spray transfer so I just don't worry about it...
Reply:Originally Posted by sixtyDan,Where did you find the digital panel for so cheap? Everywhere I look they run about 2x that. I wish my welds looked that good, I just dont have a steady enough hand!I can get my MM to spray at about the same settings but the problem I run into is the nozzle on my MT200 will glow redhot after about 4" of bead. Right now I'm using the medium length tip that sits recessed about 1/8" into the nozzle, should I use the long tip that will protrude 1/8" past the nozzle?
Reply:Dan,Thanks for the quick reply, I'll check with my local airgas. The ESAB and L-tec use the same p/n for the digital meterI didn't think to increase the gas flow for cooling but that makes sense, I'll give it a try. I found the original manual for my L-tec with the MT200 gun on the ESAB website and it says the medium tip length is specifically for spray arc. When I get a chance, I'll go out and play with spray and post some pics.
Reply:if done some spray arc and pulse arc the main thing to rember is that its only in flat pos and you need a more expensive gas like 95-5 thats what i took my cert with welds like butter even with a pounding headache from a rum bottle
Reply:A big advantage of pulsed spray is the ability to get the good penetration and very low spatter of a spray arc at a lower heat input and shorter arc length than conventional spray.  We used automated pulsed spray on some 1/8" thick automotive components, and it was ideal for production welding  and a very fast, smooth weld, with virtually no spatter, and full penetration.  Some joints were very tight and required a very short tight arc to get into.  We could run about 24 volts and 300 amps with 045 E70S-6 and 92 Ar-8 CO2.  Conventional spray would have been way to hot for the small parts and tight joint.Also with proper tuning, pulsed spray can be run in any position.  In orbital pipe welding, pulsed spray is run from the bottom up, one side at a time, not down hill.
Reply:Some of ya's welds made me cry.... so beautiful.  Then my wife ruins it all buy saying is that good?
Reply:I called Airgas and the local store only wanted $94 for the digital panel, so I put it on order. Thanks for the tip Dan! I don't really need it but I think it will help when talking about settings, and its easier to remeber volts and amps than high and low. I'd go for the spot/ stitch control panel, but I have never had a problem with timing to make consistant spot welds.Currently I am using Airgas Steelmix (somewheree between C10 & 25, but I can't verify) and it does ok with spray. I get alot of spatter durring the transition though.According to the Esab/Ltec manual I should be able to spray steel plate down to 3/32" thickness using .030: - .045" wire and 98/2 gas.
Reply:here is mine 1/4" plate 28 volts 300 ws 75/25 mix. me likes alot! sorry about the pic thanks for the info. greg Attached Images
Reply:Purdy picture, What size wire?DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.