Bending Flat Bar to a Square in a Brake

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Not really welding, but metal fabrication! Anyone ever seen any kind of brake tooling that could accomodate bending flat bar 3 times, to make a closed square? I'm doing this in a 50T shop press. I was thinking possibly making a really tall "window" brake, then dropping the table on the shop press all the way down. This would be able to acommodate anywhere from 6" squares up to 40" or so. But I'm a little skeptical about such a large area of force transmission. Material is typically 1/4" x 2" but goes up to 3/8" x 6". I'll see if I can make up a sketch to describe what I'm talking about.John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Hello Econdron, here's one that will do the sort of thing that you are talking about. It is "home built" but I did carefully engineer it to do it's job and this one is powered with a 15 ton porta-power cylinder. I also have a sketch of a much simpler design that I will try to include. It can be built from readily available standard stock or you could machine some of the components for a better quality unit. Attached Imagesaevald
Reply:I thought of a similar design to that right after I posted this. I was thinking more along the lines of making an "inverted" brake, where the single point die is on the bottom and the v-die is on the top. Then the material would just have to clear the bed of the press. I'm calculating I'll need around 20-25 tons to bend 3/8" x 6" stainless steel. Here's a rendering of what I was trying to describe. This is waaaaay more work than what you have there, but I need something that can fit in the shop press.John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Yes, the clearance thing is a definite limitation to what can be bent when you have to allow for a press bed. Well, good luck and certainly post-up what you come up with.There is another design that you could consider but I'll need to sketch it up in order for it to be fully understood. Essentially, it is made with the V-punch attached to a flat plate by only one end and the V-die is driven by a jack/porta-power cylinder and is the moving part that is "driven" by the hydraulics and an anchor plate. They are open-ended to allow for removal of completely bent parts upon completion and don't require "springing" the finished formed part to remove it. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldYes, the clearance thing is a definite limitation to what can be bent when you have to allow for a press bed. Well, good luck and certainly post-up what you come up with.There is another design that you could consider but I'll need to sketch it up in order for it to be fully understood. Essentially, it is made with the V-punch attached to a flat plate by only one end and the V-die is driven by a jack/porta-power cylinder and is the moving part that is "driven" by the hydraulics and an anchor plate. They are open-ended to allow for removal of completely bent parts upon completion and don't require "springing" the finished formed part to remove it. Best regards, Allan
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldYes, the clearance thing is a definite limitation to what can be bent when you have to allow for a press bed. Well, good luck and certainly post-up what you come up with.There is another design that you could consider but I'll need to sketch it up in order for it to be fully understood. Essentially, it is made with the V-punch attached to a flat plate by only one end and the V-die is driven by a jack/porta-power cylinder and is the moving part that is "driven" by the hydraulics and an anchor plate. They are open-ended to allow for removal of completely bent parts upon completion and don't require "springing" the finished formed part to remove it. Best regards, Allan
Reply:Thanks ZT, the ones that I have seen that have been manufactured were more for light flat bar applications/round stock, but I couldn't remember who made them. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:I believe that this is one of the sites that ZT is referring to. Regards, Allan http://www.jd2.com/t-HPAppsandSetup.aspxaevald
Reply:Some hydraulic ironworkers have that feature.  Also great for bending 4 sided frames from angle.  Simply use the notcher station to notch the angle, then flip open the cover on the bending station, and bend it.This is a random picture I found on the 'net of a Geka Bendicrop 60.Who is John Galt?
Reply:Originally Posted by EcondronI thought of a similar design to that right after I posted this. I was thinking more along the lines of making an "inverted" brake, where the single point die is on the bottom and the v-die is on the top. Then the material would just have to clear the bed of the press. I'm calculating I'll need around 20-25 tons to bend 3/8" x 6" stainless steel. Here's a rendering of what I was trying to describe. This is waaaaay more work than what you have there, but I need something that can fit in the shop press.
Reply:The larger the square it will easily stretch open to pull out of the frame.esab 260 multimasternew tech 150 invertorlincoln 140 cheapo
Reply:The Geka idea can be set up on a conventional brake.  I saw a shop made rig that bolted to the end of the bed and also to the upper frame.  They used it to form wood stove bodies going completely around with one piece of plate.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanThe Geka idea can be set up on a conventional brake.  I saw a shop made rig that bolted to the end of the bed and also to the upper frame.  They used it to form wood stove bodies going completely around with one piece of plate.
Reply:Hello again Econdron, I made a sketch of something that might work for you with your 50 ton press. I believe that the sketch explains how it works. So here goes. Best regards, Allan Attached Imagesaevald
Reply:I see some good ideas but I think things could be a little simpler.  First off I think that the "punch" or knife portion of the brake needs to be easily removable. This can be done fairly easily by simply making it slide into slots cut into the supports on each side.  Now I don't know any details of your press so it's hard to make any detailed recommendations. However maybe this crude drawing might offer some suggestions of one possible way of doing it.   That said I personally think that aevald showed the best idea the first time but it doesn't have to be that fancy or use a portapower cylinder. A simple hydraulic jack or even air over hydraulic jack could be used to make one and not take much more time than trying to rig something up on the press.   Something like this. The sides could be a couple of pieces of 1/2" x 4" strap. Something heavy enough for the base (possibly reinforced channel, rectangular tube, solid bar stock, etc.). The punch and die would have to be constructed anyway. Slots could be cut to guide the die however even easier would be to tack some strap or square stock to the 4" strap forming a channel to guide the die. Slide punch across, bend metal, slide punch out and you have your piece. If I could think of a place to keep it I might even throw one together. I've not got a place to keep it at the moment.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:I love that bender Alan!  Econdron, you might hate having the Vee die on the top, having the Knife die on top is better because you can line up the die much easier. Simply draw a line and bend it on the line, verses having to look underneath to line up the center of the bend. Here's a couple pics of my bender that I can bend a full square and then pull the top die off and remove the square. I guess a guy could build a little C frame that is removable on the top to bend extra wide stock. Attached ImagesNothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:A boss asked me once to bend a piece of 1x3/16" fb into a 12" square, I saw a piece of 12" square tubing and decided it would be easier to cut a 1" sliver off of it. It turned out better than I could have bended it at that chit hole. He was also the boss that asked me to drill a hole and file it into a square but I cut it with the plasma instead (it was closer than a drill and file too). We irritated each other...Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:"Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Irish, your first drawing is exactly what I was describing. That would be ideal for me because then I don't need to buy another jack. I don't have a spare 50T bottle jack lying around. And Allen, I like that idea, especially since instead of using a "sacraficial" plate, I could bend two at the same time. But that would be pushing 40T. Not sure how the dies would handle that much force, unless I made them out of tool steel, or 4140...And ManoKai, I was thinking about building something like that, but again I would need to purchase additional equipment. Maybe in the future, but for this one I think I'm going to try the "hanging" die, like Irish showed in his first drawing. I'll take some pictures and let you know how it goes.John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Who doesn't like a resolved post?? Here's some pictures of my final setup. The frame is 1/2" x 3" A36 steel, the bottom die is 3/4" x 3" CR 1018 steel, and the top die is 3/8" thick A36 flat bar. The bottom die just rests on the frame, and slides in and out real nice! My standard brake wasn't heavy duty enough to bend the 1/2" bar (next project??) so I cut and welded it. Then I put a bent 3/8" x 2" bar reinforcing each corner. Across the top of the two frames I welded some 3/8" x 2" bar to help prevent the top bar from bending, which I suspected it would under load. I made the "V" die a little bigger than I originally thought so I would use less force to bend, as I was worried about how it would all react. The spring back was also more than I anticipated. I guessed bout 5 degrees springback, but it ended up being about 8 degrees (hence why they don't completely close, but I should be able to use clamps to bring this to the proper shape). This was only an issue for the acute bend (79 degrees) as I made the die 74 degrees so max pressure would be perfect for this. Under load, I noticed the vertical members of the frame bowing in slightly, not enough to worry about, and the part that bolts on starting bending a bit. This could be fixed with a little more reinforcement welded underneath. Overall I'm happy. Took WAAAAY longer to make than I would have liked. Spent about 6 hours making the whole thing. Took half an hour to bend everything... Idea was now I have a tool I can use for all my other bending projects. Also got to try out the new Optima Pulse Pendent and do some spray welding on this bad boy. John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:Oh and the press ram has replaceable "tips". So I machined a "ram mount" that could be held in the ram so the top die still comes up when I release pressure. The whole setup is a little heavier than I like, but I can deal with that. Here's a picture of one of the complete trapezoids prior to welding:John 3:16(2) Miller Pheonix 456(2) Millermertic 252Dynasty 210DXHobart 210MVPDoringer D350 SA Cold SawScotchman 350LT Cold SawWebb 10x50 MillWebb 15x40 LatheGeka Bendicrop Ironworker
Reply:That looks great to me.  I really like the idea of hanging it from the top beam on the press.  You done good.