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Hmm, looks like Lincoln is determined to nail the coffin shut on poor ole Miller.Seems a certain well connected person from another forum indicated that Lincoln was adding the Precision Tig 185, to its line up.Lincoln informed myself (e-mail) that the beast did in fact exist and they would be taking orders next week-available now. Cannot post actual e-mail as something in it about dissemination, big word, smells like vague legal threatSo, if Lincoln continues its seeming policy of offering more for less, it might be a good time to unload your Miller shares What do I mean, well based only on ADVERTISING literature lets take a look.Miller introduces /sd350 Lincoln response PT 375Miller introduces /sd250 Lincoln response PT 275Miller introduces /sd180 Lincoln response PT185Miller introduces /mm210 Lincoln response pm215Arguably only the last two would be called hobbiest type machines, and when you factor in short term costs (purchase/startup) using the cheapest prices available on internet, Lincoln seems to offer more amps (sometimes slight) for less $$. Perhaps ITW, should not have thrown a wrench in a certain companys bid to 'aquire' ESAB, as they themselves have done to some many welding related companys"after a long day of doing nothing...its gooood to kick back" Pumbaa
Reply:How about the Ranger 250/305 it kicks the snot out of the blue ones.No answer?Invertec 350 advanced process?No answer?How about there 300 powermig?No answer yet?You are right about the take over.It just seems they said ok you won this round,and now take this!!!!!!!!!!!They have been piling on ever since.
Reply:Have you seen what was posted over on your website yet ScottV? Its in the thread asking opinions on the Miller 180sd & Lincoln 175."after a long day of doing nothing...its gooood to kick back" Pumbaa
Reply:Originally posted by Planet X Have you seen what was posted over on your website yet ScottV? Its in the thread asking opinions on the Miller 180sd & Lincoln 175.
Reply:Here is some more crow to taste.Lincoln didn't even have to rub it in.At least Miller woke up on this one.Next stop wire-feed tracking!!! This is from a post from #13 on the Chaski site.Miller no longer has the Edge. The XR-Edge, that is, their high-end spool gun.They will be dropping that product sometime in the very near future, as supply depletes. One insider comment alleged that users tired of the Edge birdnesting every 30 minutes.Care to guess what type of push-pull gun Miller will replace the Edge with?Here's a hint: Snake rising up out of the grass, fanned and poised to strike.Sometimes, if you can't beat em, ya gotta join 'em or get left behind.Yes, it appears that Miller finally gave up and turned to the true center of expertise for push-pull technology, asking MK Products for a little help. Still, the forthcoming Miller version will not have the synergistic controls that Lincoln's version currently has.Just an FYI.
Reply:lincoln is the only manufacturer of decent engine drives.The only low rpm generators at max hp is the lincoln copper wound generators.Miller is yet to performthe word is built on engine drives.not wire feeders for hobby use.what is hobby use doing for the world today?
Reply:miller makes good quality machines as does lincoln, i have run lincoln migs, miller migs, miller tigs and lincoln tigs... i have only ever run miller engine drives and i think that they are very good machines, and as far as lincoln goes (my opinion) is that they cut corners with the build quality of their machines. where when i run any miller machine i feel that it wont let me down, built tougher but miller is defentily loosing out  ie that new 185 tig that lincoln has...... and the POWERMIG 300 IS A WELDERS  DREAM....IF I ONLY HAD THE $$$$$$$$$$$
Reply:Originally posted by Scott V How about there 300 powermig?No answer yet?
Reply:Incase any one is interested,  Lincoln Electric aquired Century welders in October of 2003. I heard they are going to use the line for consumer retail sales.Chip
Reply:Why worry about all the one-upsmanship among manufacturers and just buy what works for you? I have a Miller 175 MIG machine, but will probably buy an older used Lincoln Idealarc TIG machine when I have the funds. I seriously doubt either manufacturer has a piece of equipment in a given class that totally kicks the crap out of the other manufacturers version of the same thing. Maybe if you're doing aerospace welding, but for most stuff...either brand would work fine.
Reply:Well, this was first posted in January of 2004, and Miller hasnt gone out of business yet. Some Miller machines are better than Lincolns, and some Lincolns are better than millers. And some people dont care if they save 25 bucks, if they already have a history with one company or the other. I have used lots of Miller machines plenty hard, for 25 years or more, and have no complaints. And I have an XR push pull, and it has never birds nested on me.I also just bought some ITW stock (Miller's parent company) for my IRA. Maybe I ought to buy some Lincoln stock as well, though, in case you guys are right.
Reply:Yeah, but Lincoln hasnt had problems with machines like Miller had when they brought out the fan on demand systems on some of their wire machines and had to do a lot of warranty work repairs because of burnt up machines!  Also, the supplier I deal with, who is a Miller only dealer, says that since Miller was bought by ITW, Miller has discontinued producing a considerable amount of replacement parts/components for a lot of their older lines of equipment.A few of my toys !LinuxMintManjaroMiller Roughneck 2E Lincoln WeldPak 100HTP MTS 160 Chicago Electric 80amp Inverter   Victor O/A
Reply:Illinois Tool Works bought Miller in 1993- 12 years ago. I have been running a bunch of Miller welders since the early 80's, and I cant say I have had any problems with getting parts for em- It may be true that miller no longer makes parts for 40 year old machines- but who the heck does? Your ford or chevy dealer is only stocking parts back 10 or 12 years, in most cases. This whole thing is just like the Ford vs Chevy arguements- a lot of pissing in the wind, if you ask me. I have owned Fords, Chevies, and Dodges- and some of each of them were good, and some were bad. I have owned Millers, and Lincolns- same story- each company has made turkeys, and each company has made cool technological breakthroughs. If you prefer RED, or BLUE, then buy that one.
Reply:Sorry to disappoint you, but its not about Chevy vs Ford.  Its about what works and what should be used as boat anchors. I have owned Millers ( more than any other brand ) at one time because they worked for me at the time.  I switched only when some other brand did it better and more effiecently than what I had.  Other times I got rid of Miller equipment was when I could no longer get parts to repair them.  The parts ranged from armatures for an engine drive to PC boards for Mig machines.  Now I dont recall Miller installing PC boards in Mig machines some 40yrs back.  If I couldnt use the Miller equipment, it was no use to me to keep it, it had to go, same with any other brand.  And I am not picking on Miller, I do still have a Spoolmate 3035 that more than fullfills my needs.  Matter of fact, I like it better than Lincoln's spoolgun.  And last but not least, I dont need to piss in the wind, I have indoor plumbing.A few of my toys !LinuxMintManjaroMiller Roughneck 2E Lincoln WeldPak 100HTP MTS 160 Chicago Electric 80amp Inverter   Victor O/A
Reply:Well I am the same way- if the machine is unrepairable, or unreliable, I buy a replacement, and I have no particular brand loyalty- I get whatever is reliable, does the job, and is cost effective. But I have a bunch of Miller welders right now, and I have never had a problem with parts, or even much ever breaking on them. A boat anchor is a boat anchor, no matter what color it is.And I do think a lot of brand loyalty is like ford vs chevy- both equally good, by and large, just slightly different designs for individual machines. If you buy a brand new miller or a brand new lincoln, I think you have a pretty good chance of getting a durable machine that works. One is not inherently better or worse than the other- that is my point.
Reply:You can ad the Trailblazer250g to the listI was very disapointed to find that most of theses units have burnt out stators at the 5 O"clock position from front of machine before 1500 hrs.Miller would do nothing for me so all of my portable blue equipment has gone down the road and been replaced with RED machines from Lincoln. I got the Ranger 250 w/spoolgun and LN25 feeder and am very pleased with the equipment. The best choice I ever made in welding.
Reply:Good read.  What about Thermal Arc?  I was between the Pro-Wave185 and the Dynasty 200DX.  I really wanted portability, the 2 machines are esentially the same.  I have never used the 200DX, but most of the functions are pretty much the same.  The only BIG difference i can see is the ability to plug into 110v up to 3phase, and the 15amps more the Miller has to offer.  I think the controls on the Miller are easier to decipher.  But, when it came down to it, the 200DX was around $2,900.00(+/-), and the TA185 came shipped to my door for $1,650.00.  My first choice would have been the Miller, but price was another story.  I looked at the Lincoln Precision TIG 185, and the Syncrowave 180SD, but both were like 200+Lbs, however, the Lincoln had pulse controls, and a few more amps.  Its really hard to put your finger on whats the best.  Portability was important to me.  next came price.2002 VW Golf TDi1994 Audi S4
Reply:http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...re/mc05114.pdf
Reply:Lincoln Electric in San Diego, CA sells direct to customers bypassing the Distributor.  Not Good
Reply:Originally Posted by MetalSculptorLincoln Electric in San Diego, CA sells direct to customers bypassing the Distributor.  Not Good
Reply:What would Economist Doctor Smithboy say in regards to Lincoln Electric by passing the distributor to sell direct to the end user ?I know it hurts the Welding Distributors that used to stock Lincoln Products.Most of the Welding Distributors in San Diego, Ca seem to have Miller Blue machines on their sales floors.Any thoughts on that would be helpful to me
Reply:That's a good question.Dell computers is probably a good model to look at in that regard.  IBM used to be the only company to sell pc's and even they considered the PC to be a niche market, and all the service and education had to come from them.  Mail order pc's are now a huge share of the PC market and they operate on a very small margin.  Both service and education is about as decentralized as it gets.  But, at the same time, more people now have computers and almost anyone can learn to work with them or fix them.  My guess (and it is just a guess) is that by not relying primarily on a distributor, we will see prices decline for welders (with a given set of features).  We will also probably see lower levels of service for mail orders.  We will also see fewer specialized local welding distributors.  And, more people will be able to afford very nice machines.  However, this will not change the certification or quality requirements for weldors.  Certs in the computer field remain and in some cases have become much more challanging, and are required more often than in earlier years.One big thing to consider here is that inverter-based welders have really reduced the shipping weight for a multi-hundred amp welder.  When I was learning to weld, you could not lift a 250 amp/60% duty welder without a fork lift or a bunch of pretty strong folks.  Now, you can throw one in the back of a toyota camry one-handed (did it this weekend).  This has reduced (but not eliminated) the need for show rooms for these welders, because if you dont like it or something happens to it in-warranty, you can ship is back without paying big $$$ for freight.Selling to the end user has its potential problems, though.  If you are a welder and want to understand all the latest features, there had better be some sort of good literature that goes with the machine that is easy to comprehend and easy to implement.  We already see professionally produced videos (not just manuals) shipping with some of the more advanced systems, and even with little consumer wire welders.  Hobart, lincoln and other welder manufacturers have or used to have their own schools which educated folks on the latest features of THIER welders.  Now, a lot of education is being done at third-party sites, like public vo-tech schools (without brand affiliation) or at conferences or at private schools or even on the job.  Even the major manufacturers are offering their education packets on line now.Welding distributors ARE likely to be hurt by this type of change, just like mom and pop (and now big retail) computer stores were (are) hurt by the introduction of Dell and other direct mail order computer and electronics stores.  But, if you are a proponent of the free market, efficiency and productivity gains benefit society even though, in the short term, it hurts individuals.  We don't see many wagon wheel manufacturers anymore, mainly becuase there is no longer a big demand for them because of the advent of cars.  Furthermore, not many folks think of that as a loss.  John Deere used to make wagons and wagon wheels, now they make other stuff.  They adapt and move with the market, which is determined by me, you and everybody.Free markets has its benefits and its victems.  Auto workers here in atlanta are about to feel that pain.  No one is immune.  Ask a local IT professional 12 years ago if he/she thought a degree in computer science was going make them in-demand for life.  Now ask the same person the same question today.  Ask the IT professionals here on this forum.  Markets change rapidly and there are often casualties.  Retraining hurts. Capitalism is probably the most vicious form of Darwinism that we see everyday.  It's cruel sometimes, but we have seen what NON-free market economies do also.  Obviously, there is room in between to be both reasonably efficient and less cruel, that's were governments walk a very thin line, and trip up often.Last edited by smithboy; 12-12-2005 at 11:02 AM.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:After looking backwards in this thread something occurred to me.  Does the competition between lincoln and miller remind anyone of the competition between ford and chevy for horsepower during the hayday of US car manufacturing?  I just wonder if their focusing on one another has potentially taken their collective eyes off the rising market for inexpensive chinese (or other imported) welders.  In the early 1960's no one had a car from japan.  Now Toyota is about to become the worlds largest car manufacturer at the same time its reputation is among the best in the car market.  This same scenario could happen in the welder market, just like the car market.  A few very good, inexpensive welders, then nice up-scale welders, then the whole market.  Remember, fuel economy was the way foreign cars gained a foot hold.  Then reliability kept them here.A reduction in the weight of welders makes shipping a shrinking issue for the world market, just like in the domestic market.  Also, if parts for welders become interchangeable like computer parts (all pc boards or in a modular form) this will make welder repair a more plug and play operation.Just a passing thought.Last edited by smithboy; 12-12-2005 at 12:04 PM.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Smithboy: This computer thing is really starting to take hold.  The later powermig units are simply a power supply that is computer controlled.  As new variations in currents and voltages are developed these machines can be upgraded with new software.  Some shops who have welding engineers on staff are designing their own current settings for certain applications.  With these new power supplies this can be done.  From there it is only a step to certify the procedure and gain a production edge over shops using the exact same equipment.
Reply:The real benefit of printed circuits is that you can have very complex wiring in a very compact form (I am sure everyone here already knew this).  For a desktop computer, since so many similar boards are made, the per-unit cost is fairly low after factoring in all the development costs.  the real problem with welders is that a lot fewer welders are sold than computers, so specialized circuit boards are more expensive (especially replacements).  I have looked closely at some of the older boards, specifically powcons cause that's what I have, and they are not too complex if you compare it to, say, a computer motherboard of the same vintage.  But, they sure cost a heck of a lot more.  I have taken to learning printed circuit repair, because I dont like the idea of paying so much for so little, besides I like messing with junk.  I imagine with the new programability and features in power sources today, and the differences between welder boards and computer boards are becomming harder to distinguish.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.Originally Posted by smithboyThe real benefit of printed circuits is that you can have very complex wiring in a very compact form (I am sure everyone here already knew this).  For a desktop computer, since so many similar boards are made, the per-unit cost is fairly low after factoring in all the development costs.  the real problem with welders is that a lot fewer welders are sold than computers, so specialized circuit boards are more expensive (especially replacements).  I have looked closely at some of the older boards, specifically powcons cause that's what I have, and they are not too complex if you compare it to, say, a computer motherboard of the same vintage.  But, they sure cost a heck of a lot more.  I have taken to learning printed circuit repair, because I dont like the idea of paying so much for so little, besides I like messing with junk.  I imagine with the new programability and features in power sources today, and the differences between welder boards and computer boards are becomming harder to distinguish.
Reply:That's really interesting.  I have made a few circuits using radio shack stuff and wires (not printed, but more compact than just wires), but that sounds pretty easy.  I know very little about this stuff, but most of the stuff I do know is pretty simple.  I have done a few repairs to my powcon's board that costed a dime or a quarter, that if done in a repair shop would have cost $200.  I keep all kinds of older computer junk because I occasionally use a piece or two off them.  Halbritt has been trying to educate me a bit on some of this electrical stuff as of late.  Were did you pick this up?  A book, your job?  I am just curious, cause I want to learn more about it.Last edited by smithboy; 12-13-2005 at 02:27 PM.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Making one's own PCBs in this day and age is pretty passe'.  One can do etch resist with a laser printer, but there are a half-dozen or more fabs in the SF bay area that will turn a PCB around in a day for $35 each.  For any kind of reasonable quantity one can get silkscreen, plated through holes and other good stuff.I wonder things about the market for welders.  How long have Thermal-Arc and HTP been around?  They're making what a lot of people consider to be superior welders for cheaper prices.  There's that and the fact that the Asian manufacturers can build to any quality specification.  The Harbor Freight stuff is the lowest common denominator in terms of cost and quality.  One would think that a US company could spec and import decent welders and then use aggressive pricing to corner the market.  For example, has anyone seen a decent 120VAC inverter MIG unit?  The only one that I know of is the Miller Passport which is priced out of the realm of most hobbiests.  A simple CV inverter with a quality wire-feed is more efficient and might produce 150 amps on a 20 amp circuit.  A welder like this would be superior to anything on the market and would be lightweight enough to make shipping and distribution to big box stores even more cost effective.  An MM135 weighs about 70Lbs or so?  A MaxStar 150 weighs about 10 Lbs.  Add another 5Lbs or so for a wire feeder, and you're still in the realm of something that can be shipped cheaply.-Heath
Reply:Smith - Picked it up on the internet.  The easiest program i've found is a combonation of ExpressSCH and ExpressPCB, the first one making the schematic, second making the PCB, then it will check that they match, make you a parts list, etc.Hal - Using the laser Printer you can also do a silkscreen!  I've found that my boards were costing me about $5-10 depending on size, as I baught the supplies in bulk, and a friend and I were making lots of the same modular amplifyer system, could link as many of the 3" by 3" PCB's together as needed.Owner of Welding Wiki,The free wiki based resource for weldor's around the world.http://www.weldingwiki.comWe have cookies!
Reply:Good point about the silkscreen.  I might consider doing my own etch resist for certain simple circuits like some amateur radio gear, but any time there's a call for surface mount components one almost has to have a board professionally made.  You can't do a solder mask with a laser printer, unfortunately.-Heath
Reply:You can do soldermask at home, but it is expensive and not that accurite.  Yea, I try not to do any surface mount, but I have done a few 8 pin SDIP chips before.Owner of Welding Wiki,The free wiki based resource for weldor's around the world.http://www.weldingwiki.comWe have cookies!
Reply:Halbritt,I have wondered (in writing) on other threads why there arent inverter/wire feeders abounding in the market.  There is no technical reason I can see that there shouldn't be an  ALL-IN-ONE DC 150-175 amp cc/cv inverter capable of being a feeder/tig/stick welder for a reasonable price.  You know, maybe mig and stick accessories are included and tig would be added if needed.I think, maybe, it's to segment the market into STICK, TIG and WIRE, thus forcing everyone to either buy each separately or go WAY up scale on their welder (multi-process machines).Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Much of this thread goes over my head - I've got absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about sometimes.Just getting back to Metal Sculptor's concern about manufacturers bypassing distributors. It's inevitable. I spent quite a few years working in the advertising industry (10 of them for a big US owned agency with and office down here). I probably worked in most categories in that time - airlines, cars, machinery, packaged goods, computers, financial products, animal health products, pharmaceuticals etc etc. Sometimes we were working for manufacturers (or wholesalers) and sometimes for retailers (distributors)Most of the manufacturers/wholesalers put up with distributors/retailers reluctantly. They were necessary because they were the consumer interface, but they could be demanding and costly to operate through - they demanded advertising support, weren't keen to pay for floor stock, constantly tried to squeeze the wholesale price etc.Then along came the internet.It's enabled manufacturers/wholesalers to engage with customers without having to depend on pesky retailers/distributors. All they need is a decent website and a contract with a courier.I travel maybe twice a month to various cities around Australia. It's years since I've been to a travel agent (retailer). When I need a plane ticket, I just go straight to the airline website.When I need some hardware, I go on-line and head to the manufacturer's website.I bought a holiday apartment last year on the coast about 5 hours drive north of Sydney. I bought it direct from the developer. There was no real estate agent involved.If cars can't be bought direct yet, it's only a matter of time. What's the point of paying a dealer mark-up for a brand new car? Sure there are the aftersales service requirements, but manufacturers can outsource this. I'd say alot of people would prefer not to deal with car salesmen if they could - apologies to any who may be reading.Retailers are going to become increasingly marginalised if they don't reinvent themselves. They're going to be less and less valued by manufacturers, so they'll need to become more relevant to consumers.Scott