What has Lincoln done to their dealers?

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I have been shopping for a new mig welder and have been to two welding shops in the last couple of weeks.  One (Indiana Oxygen) has both Miller and Lincoln stuff and the manager basically told me the Miller is far better equipment and showed me the plastic parts in the Lincoln 175+ and filled me in on how much better the MM175 is (I think most would agree they are comparable from the reading I have been doing here and elsewhere)The second local welding shop only has Miller.  When I asked him about Lincoln he said he carried it for years but dropped it last year because they want to 'tell you how to run your business'.What has the Lincoln company done to pi$$ off their dealer network so thoroughly?
Reply:My local Airgas has a large variety of Millers on display in the store.  They have one Lincoln.Last edited by MAC702; 06-27-2006 at 09:08 PM.
Reply:I dont know any inside skinny, but I do know that you can buy Lincolns at all kinds of big box stores, which has gotta **** dealers off.I have never seen a Miller at Lowes or Costco- they do sell Hobart to discounters, but keep Miller for their industrial dealers.In the long run, I think this is a much smarter policy- a welder is not a consumer commodity item, and most people who buy a welder for more than $500 will prefer to pay a bit more and get it from a real welding supply shop, which will stock consumables and parts, sell filler rods and gas, and repair the machine.If I was running Lincoln, I would do what Miller is doing, and use their Century brand for all the low end hardware store 110volt mig machines, and keep Lincoln for the bigger stuffIn marketing school, I think they call this Brand Differentiation.
Reply:Ive heard some stories in the past about this.   Some of it was factory direct.  Lincoln was always a big hit with me.   The older lincolns are still my favs, however, they are only getting older, and harder to find and they arent improving with age, Miller is.  Miller has had a lot of problems, I would say there are deffencies in Miller's products.  Yet Miller is learning from their mistakes.  They are listening to their customers and seem to be making a concience effort to do them right.  I can't say I speak the same about Lincoln.  Lincoln was the best once, but its awful tough to get to the top, even tougher to stay there.    Hope Miller doesnt fall prey to the sameIF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:TxRedneck has it exactly correct. Lincoln also has always been known as one of the most difficult companies to do business with. They will take dealer's customers direct, gouge prices on engine drives during hurricane season, and put dealers on "allocation" or rationing with filler metals. They don't treat thier customers right and Miller has the opposite approach.
Reply:Well, they have managed to completely alienate their dealers in my town...I know for a fact that they control pretty much 100% of the industry business between the two of them and they are pretty much selling all Miller now.  Takes a lot of Weldpak 100's out the door at Home Depot to make up for all the large machine sales they are losing..
Reply:In the past , lincoln was mostly interested in selling consumables , ie;  sub arc wire & flux , and welding rod . I remember Miller working closely with shop 26 (Mare Island) & when the 26 guys wanted a custom tig (D C ) RIG for the pipe prima Donnas , miller said , buy a minimum of 30 rigs, & we'll build you what ever you want . Later that particular rig went into production , for sale to anybody with the $ to buy it .
Reply:I just picked up a Lincoln Weldanpower 225 (1985 build date).In all my research, i really did not find too many lincoln dealers - mostly shops selling miller.  I heard that the older Lincolns were pretty ggo d machines - so far I've been pretty happy with this one - hope not to have too many problems....it's in really good shape.I was wondering why not too many lincoln dealers - I'll be wathcing this thread.Thanks
Reply:Well flywheel, the truth is the older generator machines were incredible.  But they are old.   The smaller machine you have, its not a generator, but its still a good little machine.  Its very comparable to the miller line like the bobcats and the bluestar of today.   Basically the machine you have is comparable to the smaller ranger class machines.  Anyway, these machines wont take the abuse the generators will take, nor will they handle large diameter rod, 7018 is a real booger out of position with a smaller machine.  They wont run open ended 10 hours 6 days a week day month after month, year after year, like the generators will.  However, they are good machines for general work, and they will give you plenty of good performance.   Your weldanpower aint a cadilac, but if you aint lookin for a cadiliac why compare it to one?    There are independant shops who, like in the automotive industry, charge less than dealer repairs, and will do any domestic make.  But again these machines with proper basic service intervals should give you good service with minmal breakdowns.Oh and congrats on your new aquisition and hope it serves you wellDont worry, I personally am not a hog on Lincoln products, just the management decisions they makeLast edited by TxRedneck; 06-29-2006 at 06:31 PM.IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:Funny but I think it is not really a Lincoln issue per say.     My local dealer has Lincoln on display ( a good portion of the product line) with a little Miller sitting in the corner.   They also handle HTP I believe and maybe even some other off brands.   They don't seem to have any issues surviving as a business.Lets face it some dealers are more oriented to one vendor or another.   Why that may be is up in the air, I would not rely to much on any info gathered at the dealer as to the reason.    It is a matter of perspective one person seeing Lincolns behaviour might see it as strong arming another might see it as an effort to prop up an agent.    Some people take offense to suggestion on how to run their business while others can't get enough. In any event I tend to avoid one supplier dealers.    I see them as weak and frankly less than honest.    Nobody (even Lincoln) has an all around perfect product line, you are much better off with a dealer that can offer many manufactures.    That being said I still believe that Lincoln has more machines that are done right than just about anybody else.     Miller has certianly made head way espcially with inverters but I don't see the wide spread acceptance that Lincoln has.As an aside your dealler that was suggesting that a few plastic parts makes for an inferior welder would have lost my business.    First off a bit of plastics or insulators are needed simply because of the electrical issues.     Mechanically it doesn't take much effort to make a plastic part that is better than a metal part in many ways.    Now I'm not saying that Lincoln has the absolute best in the way of palstic parts, but I do know that some of hte engineering resins out there are pretty awsome.Dave
Reply:Originally Posted by TxRedneckWell flywheel, the truth is the older generator machines were incredible.  But they are old.   The smaller machine you have, its not a generator, but its still a good little machine.
Reply:The generator Chris refers to is a straight DC generator. Your weldanpower is an alternator type of generator. It produces AC power which is rectified over to DC. The DC generators just produce DC power, so they are much smoother in the arc quality.
Reply:As Don stated, right on.    As far as 3 hours per week, ha.  You can get a lot more than that.  We used to run our bobcats, same idea machine, all day long most days of the week.  Differnce was we were running the machine at full tilt...not welding the whole time.  We would have machine running whether we were welding or drilling, or just doing something else, but too high up to shut it down.  YEah they did a bit of idle too, but still plenty of welding.  Out on the pipeline, where the dc generator machine really shines, the pipeliner will easily go through 50 lbs of large dia. rod in a day.  I cant say Ive been in a position to ever put my bobus through that yet.  Its very hard on machines.  Its running full tilt, no idle time whatsoever.  Course these machiens are liquid cooled, way in well over a thousand pounds, drink a lot of gas, lots of daily maintenance.   They are also very expensive to purchase out right.  Bottom line, use your machine, enjoy your machine.  Its a good machine. Unless you are planning to get on the pipeline, it will handle all you can throw at it.  Just keep up your oil, and dont trash it too hard IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:from what i have read on the boards is that Lincoln is the KING of welder for the pipeline guys.  Hard to beat a TRUE DC arc.DennisThermal Arc 185-TSWMillermatic Challenger 172VictorO/AAtlas Craftsman 12 by 24 LatheEsab PCM-875Wholesalem Tool Mill-Drill
Reply:The problem is when you start to rely on your domination in the market and ignore everything else, including the people buying your top-of-the-line products, while the customer-service-oriented companies are making gains in your market-share with their own advancing-technology products.
Reply:Hi TxRedneck!Did you ever see one of those "MultiQuip" rigs out in the field - just out of curiosity The Reason I ask is because someone awhile back mentioned these rigs to me being as reliable as a "Lincoln" which made me think of this person as someone that needs help REAL BADRespectfully,SSBN727"Run Silent...  Run Deep!!!
Reply:Hi SSBN727,Hmm the multiquip rig... I do believe thats a new one, atleast in terminology, for me.  I have heard about the big debate, and usually utter beatings most pipeliners give the miller pipepro.  I think there dandy little machines, well they aint little.  However, there is just to much electronics involved IMHO for the line of work they are in.  Folks in that line of work really really need reliability.  They can't have a machine that the electronics will go bad.   It may be true they are simplier, smaller components to replace on that pipepro than on that SA 200, however, if that SA 200 can go past 10 or more repair cycles of the pipepro and only have one simple thing go wrong that takes a little time off, well I dont know but I believe reliability is the main thing that comes to mind here.IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:My father spent almost 50 years in pipelining as a foreman and side boom operator.  I worked four summers with him during high school/college and I can tell you that it is a 100% Lincoln world.  Never saw a single Miller machine in all my time on the pipeline.
Reply:That was then...Miller is on the lines now and are gaining a little in popularity. If they can just get the bugs out of the electronics, IMO, they will take the market away from Lincoln. One thing about all business I do know...those that are set in their ways get left behind. There are so many that are getting turned off Linc it isn't funny. They had better wake up and see what is coming down the line.....If not, it will be their demise. It is just a matter of time before it happens.The Multiquip machines are ok. They are just an alternator type machine. Nothing fancy at all. Kinda like a big, diesel powered Bobcat. I used one for awhile. It worked. I suppose that is enough.
Reply:Don, these multiquip machines, are we talking miller big blue and the like? or is there a specific machine?IF it Catches...Let it Burn
Reply:It is a specific brand. They make a large line of industrial equipment. Lots of concrete stuff and generators. That is why I know about them so much. The MQ welders used to be a different name, but I don't remember what it was. May have an invoice around somewhere with the name. They were Whisperwelds, that much I remember. Had Kubota diesels, too.
Reply:What lincoln is doing now may be a survival move or power play, who knows. It is the way of of the US market right now. It is making a clear choice to go for one market vs another. Do you buy your shoes by brand at your favorite shoe shop or buy your shoes buy price and style at wal-mart? I go to my boot shop for boots, saw shop for chain saws when it matters. I can go to a big box store for the same brands at a much better price when money matters and I don't really care what it was they scaled back to get the contract and be "competitive".  I won't pretend that lincoln is just stumbling around and isn't aware of what they are doing. They've made a cognative choice, good or bad. If the big box contracts are lucrative enough they'll drop the rugged welding industry models on a scale equal to the increased profits of the home/hobby sales. Interesting. In my small mind once you've crawled in bed with the big box stores you've pretty much cut the ties.
Reply:Most other things being the same, I prefer metal over plastic for the mechanical stuff on welders or for that matter any other stuff I buy.  I chose my little miller 130 over some other migs just because the feed housing is made out of metal.
Reply:[QUOTE=Sandy]What lincoln is doing now may be a survival move or power play, who knows. It is the way of of the US market right now. It is making a clear choice to go for one market vs another. Do you buy your shoes by brand at your favorite shoe shop or buy your shoes buy price and style at wal-mart? I go to my boot shop for boots, saw shop for chain saws when it matters.  [QUOTE]RE: welders   I go to lots of used equipment auctions.   Multiquips show up regularly from rental fleets.  ---  they get rented out as 'welder generators'.   They are well sound proofed, in a small package and I suspect well suited for the rental market.The other day I was at a big auction and several 'Lincoln Classics' -- nice looking ones went for $6000 each while a Miller Big Blue 400 went for $800 even though it appeared to be in good condition.The real threat to both Miller and Lincoln was present also.   Half a dozen Chinese Kipor "welder generators" that sold for $600 each new.   They were low end 190 amp welders, but half the size of the Miller low end welder.If that price point is real, neither Miller nor Lincoln will be in the low end welder market in a few years.    Walmart and HM will flood the market with chinese throwaways, and that will be it.The Lincoln Classics and their predecesor  'DC to the core'  welders have always been popular with stick jockies, but they are big, heavy, and expensive, and lack generous amounts of AC power for other uses.Besides being dealer friendly, Miller made a product that people wanted. --  AC in the core with an inverter for DC output.   this was a smaller, lighter box which provided both AC and DC power, making it as useful for a construction site generator as a welder.   Lincoln has of course met the competition and produced these as well.Presently as nearly as I can tell the Lincoln Ranger series meets the Bobcat series nose to nose and feature for feature and dollar for dollar.   They are very competitive machines.At the moment where Miller is behind the 8-ball is on the high end.   Lincolnhas upgraded their already good 'Commander series'  into a fully integrated state of the art 'Vantage series'  which are one nice bunch of welders and are selling well, and Miller simply has nothing to answer them with.If you have 10 grand burning a hole in your pocket for a new welder it's hard not to look really hard at the Lincoln Vantage.Rvannattashop stuff at: www.vannattabros.com/shop.htmlVantage 400 at "www.vannattabros.com/iron51.htmland a few hundred otherthings.
Reply:I personally have had a hatred for miller welders for about 15 years now. Here's why. We picked up 2 jobs that had to be done at the same time. One that was out in the Aleutein chain and one down on Kodiak Island. We had at the time 2 SA 250s 2 SAM 400s and 1 Miller Big Blue 400D. I took one SAM and the Miller out the chain with me. The other guys didn't like the miller but I didn,t care, it welded ok. I figured I would use it. The other job required 3 welders. The sam had about 3000 hrs on it the miller had 954. Now keep in mind it took the tug 13 days to get there with our equipment. After welding 2 hrs the miller lost its arc. No auxilary power, just barely see a faint spark when trying to weld. So there we are 1400 miles out the chain with one welder. The only way to get another was to charter a cargo plane big enough to haul one in or send the tug after one.  So me and another guy started working nights. The SAM 400 got shut off for about 5 minutes every morning to check oil and fuel it. We changed oil about 2 weeks into the job. No filter just the oil. It ran like that 27 days. I figured only having one welder added about 4 days to the job. The tug cost $3500.00 a day to standby. So without figuring wages or room and board for the crew its cost was high.  When we got home the miller got set in the back of the yard and set there for a couple years, one day a guy drove in and offered me 500 bucks for it and I loaded it up for him. To me 800.00 at an auction sounds a little high for a miller big blue 400. That SAM 400 had 9800 hrs on it when the generator grounded itself out one day. The estimate to fix it was around $5000.00 so we scrapped it, bummed me out. I have had lincoln welders go down on jobs to but never in this type situation. Maybe I have been lucky but to me their more trust worthy. I read about the trouble with the new millers and can't take the chance. It seems to me you have to be pretty loyal to a brand to have it keep going down and you just keep going back even if the dealers bend over backwards to help.I go into the local dealer and he will have about an ever number or Lincoln and Millers for sale. I go on back in the warehouse and look over his rental fleet and its solid Lincoln. I've looked at the new millers and he suggests in my business to go with Lincoln. He says that miller has gotten to fancy with there electronics for a harsh environment. He also says if your welding aluminum with a spoolgun to go with miller, its a way better set up. So its not brand loyalty.A couple years ago we got a job for fish and wild life building 3 bridges on the Izembek wildlife refuge. To save a tug and barge charge. We loaded a crewcab pickup on our boom truck and took the ferry out down. They only had room on the ferry for one truck so I couldn,t take a welder. There is a local guy there that has equipment he will rent you and I had to rent his trailblazer 301G. When I went to weld with it I thought oh my god, what have I done. There was about a weeks worth of welding to be done I didn't know if I was going to be able to do it. I started adjusting the heat and got use to it. It welded fine, its just got a different arc.  It did a good job, Maybe softened my hatred for them a little.Last edited by spuddown; 07-04-2006 at 01:18 PM.Originally Posted by rvannattaIf you have 10 grand burning a hole in your pocket for a new welder it's hard not to look really hard at the Lincoln Vantage.
Reply:Both Miller and Lincoln build excellent machines, where Miller shines (for us) over Lincoln is their service, they seldom question warranty claims on machines, Miller's phone tech support is far superior, and the biggest plus of all is Miller has never gone in direct to a customer, as Lincoln has done to us several times. We have had several large customers request we quote Lincoln weld wire, so we go to Lincoln and try to get special pricing for these large customers, they come back to high to get the business, then they try to go in direct, around us, selling it to the end user cheaper than they quoted us.
Reply:Airgas has been fighting with Lincoln for a year or two.That right there, screws lincoln on having their machineson the floor.
Reply:There is always a tension between the manufactuer and the dealers, but the importance of dealers is often underestimated.     John Deere found this out with Homelite chain saws.  ---   They bought Homelite, rebranded the productwith green paint, made it an exclusive of green equipment dealers, and sandbagged the old line traditional homelite saw shops.Well it turns out that service is important in the chain saw business as is customer relationships.    The long time homelite dealers that were stiffed took on competitive products, and the customers avoided the service free lawn and garden shops in droves, and in short order a good selling product line was turned into nothing.Rvannattashop stuff at: www.vannattabros.com/shop.htmlVantage 400 at "www.vannattabros.com/iron51.htmland a few hundred otherthings.
Reply:[QUOTE=rvannatta][QUOTE=Sandy]What lincoln is doing now may be a survival move or power play, who knows. It is the way of of the US market right now. It is making a clear choice to go for one market vs another. Do you buy your shoes by brand at your favorite shoe shop or buy your shoes buy price and style at wal-mart? I go to my boot shop for boots, saw shop for chain saws when it matters.  RE: welders   Presently as nearly as I can tell the Lincoln Ranger series meets the Bobcat series nose to nose and feature for feature and dollar for dollar.   They are very competitive machines..
Reply:The new Lincolns are remote capable putting them ahead of Miller IMHO.My LWS sold 5 of the new Lincolns in less than 2 Mo.
Reply:Certainly the trailblazer, but not the bobcat offers a remote temp. set feature.  With the Red box does, it do more than that.Welders, particularly when mounted in service trucks tend to be mounted where that cannot be readily reached due to space constraints.remote controls includling the ability to start and stop the engine would be welcome.LIkewise many of the 2 cylinder gas engine welders are used as much for generators as welders.   do you feel tlhat the AC power features typical of the varios Raneers meets the "miller standard'.????Lincoln certainly gets the prize on the high end with the Vantage series, but this same leadship is not so obvious to me on the gas drives.Rvannattashop stuff at: www.vannattabros.com/shop.htmlVantage 400 at "www.vannattabros.com/iron51.htmland a few hundred otherthings.
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyIs this a remote start feature??
Reply:I can tell you from experience that Lincoln is still the indusrty leader. I was a user of both companies and now sell both. I can tell you from a distributors point of view that MIller is every bit as difficult to deal with as Lincoln is. The biggest problem with Lincoln is that they protect there current distributors so well that they don't see the opportunies they are missing in the small distributors. I hope that they see the light soon before they get left behind. For those of you that are wooried about Lincoln products don't be they are great products. If you want a good idea of what is good and what is not, just call your local warranty center they will give you the straight goods.
Reply:I have personally been to lincoln headquarters and the "dollhouse" power sources that are sold in HD and Lowes, well when one of those is sold another order for a power source is automatically HARDWIRED to lincolns system so they are obviously jumping head first into supplying big box stores and it is my personal opinion that lincoln thinks that their **** dont stink anymore and can tell people what to do business wise and they dont have to listen to the people who made them what they are today.
Reply:I had an interesting encounter with my local dealer.  I was asking his opinion between getting a Lincoln or a Millermatic (251 range) and he asked me whether or not I liked Fords or Chevy's.  I looked at him and said well I like Fords better and he told me to buy a Lincoln.  My next question was which did he prefer and he told me he was a "Chevy" guy.  I felt that Fords were better so his analogy wasn't worth ****.  So I asked what does he sell more of and he was quick to state that he moves Millers 3 to 1 over Lincolns.  The reason he gave for his preference is that it takes twice as long to get a Lincoln fixed right than a Miller.  We all know they both break and they are both excellent machines but there must be something to the rumors about better service if not better machines coming from Miller.Just what I experienced.Michael
Reply:Originally Posted by TiFreakI have personally been to lincoln headquarters and the "dollhouse" power sources that are sold in HD and Lowes, well when one of those is sold another order for a power source is automatically HARDWIRED to lincolns system so they are obviously jumping head first into supplying big box stores and it is my personal opinion that lincoln thinks that their **** dont stink anymore and can tell people what to do business wise and they dont have to listen to the people who made them what they are today.
Reply:Originally Posted by 383bigblock  So I asked what does he sell more of and he was quick to state that he moves Millers 3 to 1 over Lincolns.  The reason he gave for his preference is that it takes twice as long to get a Lincoln fixed right than a Miller.  We all know they both break and they are both excellent machines but there must be something to the rumors about better service if not better machines coming from Miller.Just what I experienced.Michael