Old TIG Tech vs New TIG Tech

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First let me say that I'm in Japan, Tokyo Japan, importing a Miller, Lincoln, Hobart etc from the US is pretty much not a road I want to travel down. Usually the warranty is instantly void, and getting consumables is always a hassle as well as if you need any servicing, I'm at the end of a fairly long logistics train, so that is not something I wish to do.What options do I have then?I see it as basically three options;#1 Buy a new inexpensive Chinese unit.#2 Buy a new expensive Japanese unit.#3 Buy a used not as expensive Japanese unit.Option #1Fairly typical Chinese TIG/Stick welder, and I've seen them with a foot pedal as well. These are about $500 to $600 here in Tokyo.Option #2$6400 UDS Street price.$4000 USD Street priceBuy a new made in Japan high quality industrial unit.They are expensive, but they are built to be used all day every day for 20 or 30 years.Option #3That is a 1993 Panasonic TIG welder AC/DC 300Amp unit with a matching water cooler for $2000Another good unit used, and from 1990, the price is $2400.Another, similar pricing.And yet another unit from the 1990's that is around $2000, refurbished and checked out to function just fine.I know that these units sell at these prices, as I see them sold out in a week or too, I've been watching certain used sites for a while.Now those are the options that I see open to me here where I am, in Tokyo at this time.Option #1 does not seem like  good idea, even my lovely wife says it is a waste of money, she too has learned the bitter lesson of how expensive a cheap tool can be.Now if money was no object, or if I were running a full time welding business, then option #2 would be more likely, but I'm not.I'm doing a lot of various work for various people and often it involves some welding but to say I'm a professional weldor is a stretch.That being said, I want a good machine that I can use for many years.My big question to you all is about the technology of TIG welding, has it really moved on so far from say 1990 until now?If you look at the pictures of the new welders compared to the used ones, some of them look exactly the same, on the outside at least. I imagine that there are constant updated on the insides, but will these updates really make a huge difference to me?What has changed since the 1990's?I don't know, that is why I'm asking, I would guess the most of the changes have been in new bells and whistles, digital readouts, and lighter weight, well those things do not matter much to me.Buying a good 20+ year old unit that has been checked out and is functioning correctly for anywhere from half to 1/3 of the price of a new unit.Taking into account all of my parameters what do you think?Also I should mention I'll not be traveling with this welder, it will be located in my workshop, I have 100V, 200V single phase and 200V three phase power at my workshop. Also, foot pedals are just simply NOT used here, I have yet to see any TIG welders sold here with foot pedals with the exception of some of the import units, so I'll not be getting a foot pedal machine. I've seen a ton of very nice TIG welds here in Japan, none were done with a foot pedal. I don't know how to TIG weld so it's not like I'll be missing the foot pedal, because I've never used it.Please tell me what you think.Cheers!Last edited by Stu In Tokyo; 01-28-2014 at 05:28 AM.Dragon D-150 Arc WelderHobart Handler 175 Set up with 100% CO²WT-60 Plasma Arc Panasonic TIG Star YC-300TWX-2 Panasonic YX-0092UW Water Cooler for the TIG
Reply:If you know what you are doing then you can't tell the difference what machine did what.Go old school.You don't need all the bells and whistles....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterIf you know what you are doing then you can't tell the difference what machine did what.Go old school.You don't need all the bells and whistles....zap!
Reply:I'd go for the '93 Panasonic.  Does that cooler also act as an AC unit for a warehouse?  Never saw a cooler bigger than a tranny machine.What is used for amp control in Japan?  A finger switch?TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255I'd go for the '93 Panasonic.  Does that cooler also act as an AC unit for a warehouse?  Never saw a cooler bigger than a tranny machine.What is used for amp control in Japan?  A finger switch?
Reply:I agree with Zap.  Learning on old tech as a rookie.... well you're not going to know the difference.Also, look and see if you can't find a OTC Dihen tig.  Primarily used for robotic welding, some of them are setup for human mode.OTC Dihen and Miller have been in bed together for years.  Been told a few times they own each other now.  You're mileage may vary.:-)Miller Dynasty 200DXMiller Spectrum 250DMiller Millermatic 200Bunch of old blue dinosaurs....
Reply:Originally Posted by jontheturboguyI agree with Zap.  Learning on old tech as a rookie.... well you're not going to know the difference.Also, look and see if you can't find a OTC Dihen tig.  Primarily used for robotic welding, some of them are setup for human mode.OTC Dihen and Miller have been in bed together for years.  Been told a few times they own each other now.  You're mileage may vary.:-)
Reply:Stu, see if you can find an OTC Accutig AVP300 inverter machine.I used mine non stop for over 12 years without a hint of a problem.3 different wave forms, pulsing up to 500 Hz and an AC balance I still think is the best I've ever used and that includes my new Dynasty 350.The only thing it doesn't have is adjustable AC Hz frequency which the newer machines have.It was a real workhorse for me and the way it is neatly packaged internally is the best I've seen on any machine.Regards Andrew from Oz.We are Tig welders, gravity doesn't worry us.Miller Dynasty 350. 350 amps of awesomeness.OTC AVP 300 hybrid wave AC/DC inverter tig. (now retired)Kemppi MLS 230 amp for home, a sweet little AC/DC Tig
Reply:I bit the bullet, and bought the Panasonic TIG Star WX300 with the water cooler unit, 195,000 yen or $1,893 USD. I think for the two units that is not bad.A nice bonus is they are only about an hour drive away, so I'll be able to go and pick it up, save myself about $150 on shipping. I've made plans to go and get it next Tuesday.Thanks for the help fellas, now I have to learn to TIG weld, can anyone suggest a good book? Last edited by Stu In Tokyo; 01-28-2014 at 09:35 AM.Dragon D-150 Arc WelderHobart Handler 175 Set up with 100% CO²WT-60 Plasma Arc Panasonic TIG Star YC-300TWX-2 Panasonic YX-0092UW Water Cooler for the TIG
Reply:Originally Posted by Stu In TokyoThanks for the help fellas, now I have to learn to TIG weld, can anyone suggest a good book?
Reply:I think you made a good choice Stu.  Never used the Panasonic but they of course have been around for a long time and have always built a decent product.  As Lincoln and Miller are big name realiable products in the USA, hopefully the Panasonic big name will be as reliable in Japan.  I bought my Miller Tig/stick guy a couple years ago, it was 20 years old, looked brand new with just a few hours on it!  I could have bought pretty much what ever I wanted, but when I saw it on Craigslist, I knew it was the right choice.  It was on there for over a month, no one wanted to pay $1,000.00 for a machine that old.  It was the type machine I used as a "kid"' so I knew what it could do.  Old school machine was the best buy and deal I ever swung in my life.  Funny thing about it is my wife found it on Craigslist.  If not, at least parts should be readily available.  The price seems great also for Japan (I perceive it is not cheap to live close to Tokyo).Hey, I have seen pictures of your shop.  Was size of the machine one of your considerations in buying the Panasonic?  Must say you are living an adventurous life in Japan - to be envied!Some kind of Big Blue constant current welding machineAnother smaller yet, Blue machine (it's got wire in it)
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveWeldingtipsandtricks.comWelding-tv.comThose are Jody's websites and I believe the best place for you to start.Ask on this site what all you knobs and buttons do and how to set up.Good luck and have fun! I predict you'll like it way better than stick
Reply:Little blurb aboyt the WX300:  http://www.thefreelibrary.com/TIG+we...ge.-a016528860"USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA  Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:Originally Posted by OldendumLittle blurb aboyt the WX300:  http://www.thefreelibrary.com/TIG+we...ge.-a016528860
Reply:As far as learning to tig.  If I was writing a book on the subject, some of the chapter titles would be:Chapter 1:  keep er clean (clean metal can not be over emphasized)Chapter 2:  Buy lots of tungsten - you'll need them!  Keep them sharp, don't use contaminated ones-your only wasting your time and energy and won't learn anything from the experience except you didn't learn anything from the experience.  2% thoriated will do everything you want or need.  What.....Chapter 3:  heat setting, travel speed, torch manipulation/height, consistently/repeatability /like a machine are your keys to success.Some kind of Big Blue constant current welding machineAnother smaller yet, Blue machine (it's got wire in it)
Reply:Originally Posted by Dale SalisburyAs far as learning to tig.  If I was writing a book on the subject, some of the chapter titles would be:Chapter 1:  keep er clean (clean metal can not be over emphasized)Chapter 2:  Buy lots of tungsten - you'll need them!  Keep them sharp, don't use contaminated ones-your only wasting your time and energy and won't learn anything from the experience except you didn't learn anything from the experience.  2% thoriated will do everything you want or need.  What.....Chapter 3:  heat setting, travel speed, torch manipulation/height, consistently/repeatability /like a machine are your keys to success.
Reply:No jig needed - put it in a drill, let it turn slow while you sharpen it.Or just hold it and turn it. By eye is plenty good enough. One safety point though, most pics I see show holding a tungsten with the tip pointed up against the wheel rotation. This is against basic shop grinder safety rules. If the tip gets grabbed by the wheel, the tungsten get shoved into your hand.Point the tip down while sharpening.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveNo jig needed - put it in a drill, let it turn slow while you sharpen it.Or just hold it and turn it. By eye is plenty good enough. One safety point though, most pics I see show holding a tungsten with the tip pointed up against the wheel rotation. This is against basic shop grinder safety rules. If the tip gets grabbed by the wheel, the tungsten get shoved into your hand.Point the tip down while sharpening.
Reply:Here are some pics to explain what sharpening does. Since I have an old school machine, for aluminum my tip looks like the middle one (first pic) and it rounds over while I weld.For steel I use the bottom two grinds.Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveHere are some pics to explain what sharpening does. Since I have an old school machine, for aluminum my tip looks like the middle one (first pic) and it rounds over while I weld.For steel I use the bottom two grinds.
Reply:Originally Posted by Stu In TokyoI think my Stick welder may just be up for sale, as it is only 150Amps, this unit is 300Amps, so no real reason to keep the old stick welder.
Reply:Originally Posted by Raul........I wouldn't sell the welder.
Reply:I went and got my new to me TIG welder today, in the rain, the sleet and then the snow!All the parts look to be there, and I figured out how things are plumbed, the hoses were just sliced off, so I could tell which one went where by matching the cut hoses up.The control panel, lots of knobs and switches to fool with. I'm going to contact Panasonic and see if I can get a manual for this machine, maybe even one in English, as this machine was sold in the US as well.The torch, it is water cooled, which is good, as I have the water cooling unit as well!I popped the front cover off to hook up, or at least figure out where to hook up everything.The argon regulator and the ground clamp.The four connectors from the torch, the one two prong connector is for the switch on the torch, the large connector is a water connector, the dark colored smaller on is for the water as well, and the clean smaller one is the argon gas, that much I figured out.The lower middle of the pic is the argon gas connection, and the multi pin connector is labeled "Remocon" which is for a remote control, I think one of these......No pedals have I seen here except for on the Chinese import machines.Everything is just placed how it should be plumbed, I'm going to buy new water hoses for it, as the old ones are quite stiff, I worry about their integrity.  Now I have to wire up a plug from my 200V three phase breaker and check to make sure this thing works, the recycle company I bought it from says it worked fine at the factory it was at, but they did not have 3-phase power in shop to test it, I have a three day warranty, so I'd better get cracking!Both units have wheels built in, but I was thinking about a stacking cart, mainly to save space and it would also give me a place to coil up the ground lead and the torch leads, and if it is all on one cart, then plumbing the water cooler should also be easier.I'm excited to get a new piece of kit, but a bit intimidated on how I'm going to figure this all out.I also found this English pamphlet on the newer version of my welder >>HERE 010(Japan exit code)-1-847-637-9700They helped me through getting a Panasonic mig to do something they hadn't really designed it to do in the 90's... Good folks!US factory automation website here-> http://www.panasonicfa.com/Looks nice & good luck with it.Matt
Reply:Originally Posted by Matt_MaguireI have to admit to being a fan boy of Panasonic automation & welding Stu. They went to building a class of welders that were intended to work with robots (the big money). So they set a target of 40,000hrs MTBF (mean time between failure) on things. That was unheard of in the late 80's early 90's & it had an effect that benefited all buyers. I recall the buzz at the IMTS and AWS conventions back then.They did well enough at it they found themselves "import restricted" by the 90's on the welding machines so they got pretty handy at matching US machines to the bots at the factory automation place in Chicago.The place is still going and it may be a pretty cashy phone call but good chance you can get english help here -> 010(Japan exit code)-1-847-637-9700They helped me through getting a Panasonic mig to do something they hadn't really designed it to do in the 90's... Good folks!US factory automation website here-> http://www.panasonicfa.com/Looks nice & good luck with it.Matt
Reply:I called Panasonic and they dug up, well it looks like they printed up and bound an English manual for my welder for me and sent it out to me for 2000 yen ($20) I'm pleased with that for sure.I put a shelf of sorts on top of the welder and mounted the water cooler on that. I got the welder wired up to my main panel, took a while to get the cap and body, as I needed 40Amp 4P three phase units and they come in 20Amp, 30Amp and 60Amp. so the 60Amp cap and body had to be ordered in. Now all I need to get the welder up and running are some consumables and the coolant hoses, the ones that came with are well past their prime. I'll get the hoses tomorrow and I'll be ordering some consumables soon. I'll start a new thread on the consumables question.I found a never opened 4L jug of antifreeze for our Toyota van, which we sold, and I'm thinking about using in the water cooler.I also have to chain that bottle down.I have to ask about my old argon bottle, it was last filled in June of 2002. There is still lots of pressure in the bottle but I'm wondering if the gas sitting for 12 years in the bottle in my basement workshop could somehow make it unusable?Getting closer to sparking up the TIG welder and learning how to do it.Cheers!Last edited by Stu In Tokyo; 02-13-2014 at 06:59 AM.Dragon D-150 Arc WelderHobart Handler 175 Set up with 100% CO²WT-60 Plasma Arc Panasonic TIG Star YC-300TWX-2 Panasonic YX-0092UW Water Cooler for the TIG
Reply:"I understand that the machine can use tungsten from 0.5mm to 4.8mm or 1/32" to 3/16" I would guess I'd need different torches to run the smallest and the largest.."Hey Stu I don't know if you found out yet but all you need to do to use the different size tungstens (besides buy them) is to take the ceramic cup off and look inside your torch to see the "collet" (that's the thing that the tungsten goes through and holds the tungsten when the ceramic cup and tail are tighten down).  You buy different collets that correlate to the size tungsten you want to use.Some kind of Big Blue constant current welding machineAnother smaller yet, Blue machine (it's got wire in it)
Reply:Originally Posted by Dale Salisbury"I understand that the machine can use tungsten from 0.5mm to 4.8mm or 1/32" to 3/16" I would guess I'd need different torches to run the smallest and the largest.."Hey Stu I don't know if you found out yet but all you need to do to use the different size tungstens (besides buy them) is to take the ceramic cup off and look inside your torch to see the "collet" (that's the thing that the tungsten goes through and holds the tungsten when the ceramic cup and tail are tighten down).  You buy different collets that correlate to the size tungsten you want to use.
Reply:Stu. I wouldnt keep the water cooler on top of the machine. If something goes kamikaze on it good bye welder. Just a thought.I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeStu. I wouldnt keep the water cooler on top of the machine. If something goes kamikaze on it good bye welder. Just a thought.
Reply:Originally Posted by Dale SalisburyHey Stu I don't know if you found out yet but all you need to do to use the different size tungstens (besides buy them) is to take the ceramic cup off and look inside your torch to see the "collet" (that's the thing that the tungsten goes through and holds the tungsten when the ceramic cup and tail are tighten down).  You buy different collets that correlate to the size tungsten you want to use.
Reply:Originally Posted by Stu In TokyoNever thought of that Mike.... Hmmm, going to have to think about that.... Maybe I'll have to build another cart, because I really, really don't have the extra space, the extra footprint.....Thanks!
Reply:Originally Posted by weldermikeStu. I wouldnt keep the water cooler on top of the machine. If something goes kamikaze on it good bye welder. Just a thought.
Reply:Seems like a nightmare or a Bill Murray movie, having my wife read and translate a technical manual. I can't imagine it working in English!
Reply:Wow! Those machines are very very cool. Great threadI would love to have any of those machines in the USLocal 83
Reply:Interestingly you can apparently purchase one through Miller, who are now in a mutual admiration pact with panasonic on the automation side. No doubt it will be expensive. But still: http://www.millerwelds.com/products/...p?model=PA0170
Reply:So did everybody know this already? Or is it just not interesting? I was really surprised to see Miller partner with a maker of welders that might actually be better than their own, but I guess most people buying Dynastys don't stumble in to the automation side of the website.
Reply:Well I finally stole the time to finish my new TIG welder cart, with the water cooler on the bottom, space for the tank in the back.....I got my argon bottle back too, it was out of certification so I had to get it tested again, took 10 days.Just curious about prices, the testing cost me 5500 yen or about $55 and is good for 5 years, the refill cost me 6000 yen or about $60 and is 1.5 cubic meters or about 53 cubic feet, or about $1.13 a cubic footHow far out of line in pricing is that you think?Cheers!Dragon D-150 Arc WelderHobart Handler 175 Set up with 100% CO²WT-60 Plasma Arc Panasonic TIG Star YC-300TWX-2 Panasonic YX-0092UW Water Cooler for the TIG
Reply:A 250 costs me $40 to fill.Is your cart top heavy?TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Aw what a cute little cylinder... BTW I want my bailout bottle for diving back.... That's what it looks like, my alum 40 cf cylinders I use for deco gas.Test price is a bit high vs what I pay, but not unreasonable. I typically pay around $20 for a hydro, but $50 isn't all that unreasonable if it's got to go thru another set of hands like SCUBA stuff often has to.Gas is always more expensive it seems in small sizes. I pay just a few dollars more to get my 300 cf cylinder of O2 filled vs my 10 cf one. Same goes with most of my other gasses as well, but I don't have cylinders as drastic in size as that with Argon or C25 at the moment..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255A 250 costs me $40 to fill.Is your cart top heavy?
Reply:Looks good stu, you may want to move the grinder further away from  the welder. Tungsten dust is not healthy for the Welders contacts and electronics.
Reply:Originally Posted by That Guy ThereLooks good stu, you may want to move the grinder further away from  the welder. Tungsten dust is not healthy for the Welders contacts and electronics.
Reply:Looks great Stu.  How about snapping a few shots of the workshop.  I am always curious to see how others handle small spaces with large tools.Charlie
Reply:Originally Posted by 59halfstepLooks great Stu.  How about snapping a few shots of the workshop.  I am always curious to see how others handle small spaces with large tools.