Max Misalignment of pipe ASME sec 9 ???

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What is the max internal misalignment for a pipe joint per asme sec 9 ?  Im thinking 1/16" ?Had an issue the other day with a cut out at work.  The guys fit up the joint and I tossed on a tack.  They well the apprentice who was fitting for me and his foreman held the joint while I tacked it.  Once it was tacked I noticed some serious hi low.  Anyhow the young apprentice and his foreman tell me that the joint is fine and there is no hi low.  (come on guys im not effin blind).  They're all well "the line isn't being x rayed who cares".  Anyhow I let it go and go talk to my welding foreman.  He gets to the joint and looks at it and says.  Why did you tack it.  At this point im getting pissed. (he had previously told us all any fit ups we were unhappy with he would back us up).  I tell him I had to tack it to see the fit up, they didn't use a line up clamp to fit the joint, the apprentice and his foreman just held the joint together and hoped for the best.  And of course they had no hi low gauge.Anyhow my foreman then agreed we needed to cut it apart if I was unhappy.  They sent over a proper journeyman fitter (not a plumber like who I had worked with the previous day on the same line).  The fitter checked out the fit up and agreed it was jacked.  I cut the 2 tacks I had on the joint, and the new fitter checked everything out.  He found that the "PLUMBER" and the apprentice fitter who cut the original joint apart (a cut out) didn't clean up what was left of the root inside the pipe thus making the hi low even worse plus the fact that the elbow coming up through the scaffold wasn't aligned thus putting the bevel on the 90 inside the pipe.So would you have welded this joint or made them fix it ?   Had a guy there tell me he would have welded it knowing it wasn't being xrayed.  But yet he stopped the job he was at because he felt it was unnecessary to weld overhead, that what he was doing could be designed different and a flat weld could be made.    I have been told before stuff wasn't to be xrayed only to find out it was.  I don't take chances.  Also how much does misalignment effect passing or failing x ray ?Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:I make them fix hi-lo if possible. If they left the old root in, I would definitely make them cut it apart and grind it some more.Sometimes you get a fit where it's hi-lo all around, not much they can do about that other than grind it out, and I don't think grinding the pipe is all that kosher, but grinding a fitting is usually OK. Also, on big pipe that can be pretty out of round, so if I can get to it to backweld, then I let some slide, as long as they make an effort.As far as x-ray, it would depend how picky they are wanting to be. Usually, as long as you get the wall broke down, it's OK. If they do like a side angle shot, then hi-lo is more obvious on the film.
Reply:Yeah part of the old root was left in there, the journeyman fitter determined that when he cut it apart.  There was hi low all around but one spot was much worse the bevel of the 90 was actually inside the bevel of the pipe.  Id say in one spot there was up to 1/8th or more of mis alignment.  There was no way to get at this to back weld it it was a tie in weld.  It would be nice though to have that option all the time :-)...  How good is x ray at picking up suck back ? and or drop through / over penetration ?  Lets say 1/8" max internal root reinforcement allowed can they accurately pick that up on x ray ?  Or is it more of an estimation when they look at the film ?A job I worked at before which was all duplex 100% xray and UT they transitioned everything that didn't fit up well, pipe or fittings.Last edited by Newfie_1986; 07-21-2015 at 03:34 PM.Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:They can see excess penetration cause it shows up as a brighter spot than the rest. Not sure how accurately they can gauge it, I'm sure some guys are better at it than others. Suck back would have to be pretty bad, because the cap is usually high enough to compensate for a low spot. It will still show up some, but I believe it would have to be quite a bit darker than the pipe wall for them to call it. The main thing is breaking the walls down, or slag/ porosity, that will get you every time.
Reply:A good xray tech will spot it and if there is any question in his mind will call for an angle shot. Hi-Lo should be beveled back on the interior using a 4-1 ratio if it can't be "fitted up". Let's face it - the welder is the one that is going to get yelled at, blamed, or fired for the weld. It is up to you to make the call whether to weld it up or not. If the boss tells you to go with it get his initials on a QC card or work order. If he doesn't want to do that look for another job.
Reply:Usually some joint offset is allowed. It is typically based on the wall thickness of the pipe, as to how much offset is acceptable. The thicker the wall, the more offset is allowed.I know what we're allowed where I work, but I don't know the ASME allowances, per se. Offset is defined as the 2 beveled pieces of pipe being out of alignment at 2 places, usually 180 degrees apart from each other. If the pipe is NOT misaligned at 2 places, is is not offset, one pipe is not concentric.Rich
Reply:hah I forgot to add the important part this was all on 3 inch pipe sch 40  6010 rootJourneyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:MY welds have MY NAME on them ... not the fitters name, not the foremans name, not the apprentices name ... MINE.  If the joint is jacked up and putting me in a bad spot, i tell them to fix it or get bent.  If you weld a ****ty fit up ... it all on you, baby.AWS CWI xxxx21711968 SA200  Originally Posted by WelderMike  I hate being bipolar, It's awesome.
Reply:Originally Posted by AFFENDEMY welds have MY NAME on them ... not the fitters name, not the foremans name, not the apprentices name ... MINE.  If the joint is jacked up and putting me in a bad spot, i tell them to fix it or get bent.  If you weld a ****ty fit up ... it all on you, baby.
Reply:That's exactly how I felt about it my name was going on the weld its my responsibility and my call F off and fix the crappy fit up.What about joints in bad spots ?   I have had to weld numerous joints in bad spots on this job all due to fitters putting joints in a harder spot than required.   The other day I had to weld a flange on the end of a spool in position rather than weld it on in the stands.  It was totally unnecessary it could have been 2 holed and welded in the stands.  Not only did I have to make a weld in position that didn't need to be,  it also only had 8-10 inches of clearance under it.  I managed to do it but why would they make us do every thing the hard way ?  If it had to be tig I wouldn't care but its a stick root on 3 and 4 inch sch 40.This job they made everyone pass 3 tests at the hall even though we all had those tickets.  f3/f4  f6/f4   f6/f5.  Then once we passed those tests for the company we had to come to site and pass 2 qualifiers, up in the rack in very hard spots on 3 inch.  We had a few guys fail and get ran off.Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:Better get used to working with idiots, it never ends.
Reply:I have been welding since 2008 I know and im starting to realize its never going to end.  If it hasn't gotten better by now it isn't going too.Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:long harbor
Reply:Originally Posted by TimmyTIGBetter get used to working with idiots, it never ends.
Reply:It ain't yours until you put in the last tack.Know the WPS and code for dang sure and live by it. If you don't know how much high-low is acceptable by the code that's specified on the job, or you don't know what code is called out on the WPS, or you haven't even seen the WPS, then you're at the fitter's mercy. If that's the case, then weld what he gives you and be glad you can get a job without being a knowledgeable, professional welder.
Reply:ASME sec 9 refers to the testing and qualifications of welders and weld procedures.  Hi lo limits fall under the particular code you are working on whether its b31.1 power piping, or ASME sec III nuclear.  Know the code and WPS you are working too.  I find this is one of the biggest faults of the trades these days......we are letting QC tell us how to do our job, we need to be more educated in the codes we are working too.Bottom line you tack it.......you own it......Interprovincial RedSeal Welder and SteamfitterMiller Maxstar STL 110vMiller Blue Star DX 185Lincoln 180
Reply:Originally Posted by AFFENDEThe hardest traits to find in any employee are integrity and selflessness. The vast majority of employees, in any occupation, just want to do as little as possible without so much as a single thought to how they can take an extra 30 seconds and save hours down the line or take responsibility for their actions.
Reply:Originally Posted by Skull1ASME sec 9 refers to the testing and qualifications of welders and weld procedures.  Hi lo limits fall under the particular code you are working on whether its b31.1 power piping, or ASME sec III nuclear.  Know the code and WPS you are working too.  I find this is one of the biggest faults of the trades these days......we are letting QC tell us how to do our job, we need to be more educated in the codes we are working too.Bottom line you tack it.......you own it......
Reply:You can always buy your own hi-lo gauge, just know that bad fitters tend to freak out when you take it out of your pocket. A lot of times hi-lo is a welder's call, if you think you can get it, have at it. Some jobs the inspector has to buy off the fit, that's where it gets interesting.I rejected a piece this weekend on that 24 inch heavy wall. They tacked it up with no prep at all, just blasted. Left the land on, the 45 had a rolled over back bevel on it that's supposed to be tapered back 3 to 1, the fitter never touched it with a grinder. Plus it had hi-lo. We got some real jim dandies for fitters.
Reply:I already have a hi lo gauge, its the big one no good for 3/32 gap.   The company really should be supplying the tools, it is a Union job after all.  I think one of my new fitters has a hi lo gauge anyhow.Journeyman / Red Seal Welder (What a useless test)Miller CST 280Miller XMT 350Miller 12vs XtremeEvolution Evo 28 mag drillEvolution 380 Dry Cut saw
Reply:Originally Posted by teh603Are they being pushed to fit things as quickly as possible, or are they being told to do things right? And does the guy who's evaluating your fitters know that quality is better than quantity?I'm asking because you also mentioned selflessness. That can't exist in a modern jobsite. You have to do as much as you can as fast as you can, even if quality takes a hit. You have to do it because there's always someone willing to do the same job for less- and you know the manager will do it if you give them half an excuse.Right, but that few extra minutes could also mean the difference between the fitter getting canned for working too slowly.
Reply:long harbor