Journey starts here, my second attempt at stick welding...

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Hi all.So this is my second attempt at stick welding, or any other welding for that matter! I have a cheap (but serviceable) gas mig that I'm yet to use, and this super cheap AC stick welder.It's only 115 amp max, so when money permits I hope to get something more capable, but for now I'm stuck with it.All I've gone on so far is info on here, and YouTube videos (Lanse in particular). Obviously I could do with some direction, and hope to use just this one thread to update my progress as I learn to welding [hopefully] mig & stick, with a view to learning tig......One day So yeah, I used my crappy little AC welder at around 100 amps, with Hilco 2.5mm (sorry, don't know what that is in your money?) E6013 rods.I know the steel looks badly prepared, but it was cleaned thoroughly in the patch I was using, honest!I knocked the slag off and brushed it quickly, but left it alone other than that, so that you can see my mistakes in all their glory, and advise as required So, fire away, get me pointed in the right direction, if you'd be so kind.All advice and criticism very much appreciated. I'm pretty good at taking advice, so please treat me as your new project JonHope I've done the photo thing right, please let me know if I messed that up too
Reply:Those don't look bad at all!! You might need to watch the heat as you have some bb's or perhaps you are long arcing it a bit. But overall uniformity and bead hsape look good to me. Then again, I am an accountant so don't take my word for it. We'll see what the real pros have to say. My advice? Keep on keeping on....try for some longer runs and maybe a pad of beads.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Thanks buddy, and yeah, I did wonder about the bb.... my arc control isn't great yet, and I am occasionally long arcing it, so perhaps that's the problem, thank you.I've seen people recommend that beginners do a pad, and from what I gather that's just bead after bead in a straight line right? I'll get some scrap tomorrow and get busy Thanks again
Reply:looks good to me
Reply:bead after bead with a 50% overlap on each of the preceding beads.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Keep Practicing.Might get a box of 3/32 7018 at about 90-95amps.Good luck,~John
Reply:Thanks all, I'll keep updating this thread as I practice, a pad is first on the agenda.
Reply:To me it looks good for your experience. I must say pretty damn consistent. 6013 here in the states is not a common rod used on job sites but i guess in the UK it is. I hear it is used for the root pass on pipe over there. It looks to me like you are ready to try some beveled plates to see what you can do. Padding is good practice but much different than running a root.
Reply:make some longer welds, you need to learn how to react and move/manipulate your hands/wrist as the rod gets shorter. What you have done so far looks pretty good. Id do ahead and get a piece and start padding.- Christian M.C3 Welding & Fabrication - CNC Plasma Cutting-Mobile Welding-Custom welding and fabwww.c3welding.com
Reply:Thanks Arizona and camjeep, I'll practice running a few whole rods, and doing some plates. I'm not sure how common the 6013 is here in the UK, but my friend runs a steel erecting firm and gave me a box to try. I figure I'll use them to practice as they're free.Much appreciated, will post again when I've practiced some more.
Reply:Looks pretty good for second try - now run a couple around 4" long see how thatgoes - then try a T joint fillet weld (stand a piece vertical on your plate) and seewhat that looks like -The main thing is not to panic or get excited Bobcat 250, X-Treme 12VS,  MM211Meltabo, Milwaukee,Porter Cable,Dewalt,MakitaVictor O/A, Ingersoll-RandEvolution Rage2, 40 amp PlasmaLincoln 225 AC/DC
Reply:Thanks Renagade, will do.
Reply:Your friend gave you about the very best rod available to begin with. Most welding involves making two pieces of steel into one . Try it. You've already proven you can lay a bead.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Originally Posted by BurpeeYour friend gave you about the very best rod available to begin with. Most welding involves making two pieces of steel into one . Try it. You've already proven you can lay a bead.
Reply:Off to a good start bud!I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Thanks Mike, appreciate it buddy
Reply:Not bad, but the others were better. You need to slow down a bit from the look of that last bead. The big ripples and V shaped ripples tells me you are moving too fast..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWNot bad, but the others were better. You need to slow down a bit from the look of that last bead. The big ripples and V shaped ripples tells me you are moving too fast.
Reply:@ LittleRestraint - Nice.  On your way bro.  Burn in with intent.  Every rod, every time.  Drive run 'em, then live run 'em.  Consider 10lbs of rod burn a minor milestone for achieving "step-wise" improvements in your technique/results.  Per work piece position (1/2F, 3F...2G...6G).  Consider 50lbs of expended rod a major milestone.  Your technique will improve with hood time, critical self/other-assements, and an "all-in" attitude.  Win.Last edited by ManoKai; 03-21-2014 at 07:15 AM."Discovery is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody else has thought" - Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
Reply:Originally Posted by ManoKai@ LittleRestraint - Nice.  On your way bro.  Burn in with intent.  Every rod, every time.  Drive run 'em, then live run 'em.  Consider 10lbs of rod burn a minor milestone for achieving "step-wise" improvements in your technique/results.  Per work piece position (1/2F, 3F...2G...6G).  Consider 50lbs of expended rod a major milestone.  Your technique will improve with hood time, critical self/other-assements, and an "all-in" attitude.  Win.
Reply:Keep in mind most small inverters do not run 6010's well, especially in whip and pause. That's usually one of the big separators between lower priced units and upper end inverters as far as whether they are designed to run 6010 well.In many cases smaller units do a fair to OK job as long as you maintain a consistent arc length with 6010. However they are not optimized for when the arc length changes rapidly like when doing whip and pause. Some units though won't run 6010 well at all. 6011 is usually recommended as a better choice for small inverters even though 6010 is a DC rated rod. Miller used to have a good explanation on their site that explained why the Maxstar 150 doesn't run 6010 as well as the Maxstar 200's do. It comes down to the compromises Miller made with the 150's to keep the unit small, light weight as well as keep the price down..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWKeep in mind most small inverters do not run 6010's well, especially in whip and pause. That's usually one of the big separators between lower priced units and upper end inverters as far as whether they are designed to run 6010 well.In many cases smaller units do a fair to OK job as long as you maintain a consistent arc length with 6010. However they are not optimized for when the arc length changes rapidly like when doing whip and pause. Some units though won't run 6010 well at all. 6011 is usually recommended as a better choice for small inverters even though 6010 is a DC rated rod. Miller used to have a good explanation on their site that explained why the Maxstar 150 doesn't run 6010 as well as the Maxstar 200's do. It comes down to the compromises Miller made with the 150's to keep the unit small, light weight as well as keep the price down.
Reply:This was my third attempt at a fillet weld. I used a cheap inverter with a low hydrogen 7016 (2.5mm), which seemed to be quite forgiving. I think I was at about 85 amps (DCEN). Is it anything like?The first two I tried were pretty poor. I used a 2.5mm 6013, and the bead seemed to just run along either the top plate or the bottom plate, rather than filling the corner.Is that because a 6013 is the wrong rod to use, or my prep wasn't good enough, or not enough heat? Or a mixture of faults? I'll try and post a photo in a while to show you what I mean.Thanks all Jon
Reply:Looks pretty good man!
Reply:Originally Posted by Murphy's lawLooks pretty good man!The 7016 is a very, very nice rod, here in Australia we used to use them for the root run on pipe welding, due to how forgiving they are once an arc is struck, as well as they're good mechanical properties, but the downside is your little 115 amp machine won't run 1/8th rods very well, they like more heat then a 6013.Your technique there look's pretty good, you've the toe's of the weld pretty even, a nice flat weld profile, just a little un-even, and good wetting of the toe's, and little spatter, all good point's, I'd be focusing on getting a more consistent weld bead, which come down to travel speed in your case, practice going slow and fast in the same weld, so you start to get an idea what to look for when welding, practice re-filling low point while welding when you have a little hicup, Ie. when you accidentally wobble, and move forward to fast, and end up with a small section that is to small, traveling back over it to fill it up before the weld pool freezes (if what i just said makes any sense whatso-ever haha)you have the gift my friend, most people take a solid week of practice to get to where you are, keep practising and your weld quality will improve drastically, when i did my apprenticship, there were multiple guy's who's welding was much worse then your's after 80 hours of practice with a stick welder.Are you intending on trying to work as a welder? if so, i highly recommend getting yourself a little Mig welder, stick welding is becoming somewhat of a speciality these day's, and so almost all workshop's use Mig welder's.Last edited by ttoks; 03-29-2014 at 06:53 PM.
Reply:Bead looks like it trapped quite a bit of slag along the top edge. Almost looks like the bead rolled and trapped the slag. I can't comment on amps since I don't run 7016. Pict looks odd for some reason. I wouldn't mind a few more back a bit so I get some more perspective, maybe from other angles as well. I'm thinking the bead might have been aimed more at the lower plate, and the trapped slag is due to the bead rolling against the upper plate vs getting washed in correctly.6013 only having the bead attached to the top or bottom piece tells me you weren't allowing the puddle to form completely. You were moving before the puddle bridged both pieces. Picts would have helped even if they were ugly. If on the top piece, you had the rod aimed up there, and started moving before the puddle went down to the bottom. Bead only on the bottom would be the reverse. I'm thinking based on that, that the bead above might have been almost the same, but in this case because the slag was a bit thinner, you got more puddle so the bead is larger, but still have the same issue..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:ttok. What brand 7016 do you have over there ?I don't see any listed at my normal places but we get lotsa Aussie-NZ stuff here. I can ask for some.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Originally Posted by ttoksThe 7016 is a very, very nice rod, here in Australia we used to use them for the root run on pipe welding, due to how forgiving they are once an arc is struck, as well as they're good mechanical properties, but the downside is your little 115 amp machine won't run 1/8th rods very well, they like more heat then a 6013.Your technique there look's pretty good, you've the toe's of the weld pretty even, a nice flat weld profile, just a little un-even, and good wetting of the toe's, and little spatter, all good point's, I'd be focusing on getting a more consistent weld bead, which come down to travel speed in your case, practice going slow and fast in the same weld, so you start to get an idea what to look for when welding, practice re-filling low point while welding when you have a little hicup, Ie. when you accidentally wobble, and move forward to fast, and end up with a small section that is to small, traveling back over it to fill it up before the weld pool freezes (if what i just said makes any sense whatso-ever haha)you have the gift my friend, most people take a solid week of practice to get to where you are, keep practising and your weld quality will improve drastically, when i did my apprenticship, there were multiple guy's who's welding was much worse then your's after 80 hours of practice with a stick welder.Are you intending on trying to work as a welder? if so, i highly recommend getting yourself a little Mig welder, stick welding is becoming somewhat of a speciality these day's, and so almost all workshop's use Mig welder's.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWBead looks like it trapped quite a bit of slag along the top edge. Almost looks like the bead rolled and trapped the slag. I can't comment on amps since I don't run 7016. Pict looks odd for some reason. I wouldn't mind a few more back a bit so I get some more perspective, maybe from other angles as well. I'm thinking the bead might have been aimed more at the lower plate, and the trapped slag is due to the bead rolling against the upper plate vs getting washed in correctly.6013 only having the bead attached to the top or bottom piece tells me you weren't allowing the puddle to form completely. You were moving before the puddle bridged both pieces. Picts would have helped even if they were ugly. If on the top piece, you had the rod aimed up there, and started moving before the puddle went down to the bottom. Bead only on the bottom would be the reverse. I'm thinking based on that, that the bead above might have been almost the same, but in this case because the slag was a bit thinner, you got more puddle so the bead is larger, but still have the same issue.
Reply:Originally Posted by Burpeettok. What brand 7016 do you have over there ?I don't see any listed at my normal places but we get lotsa Aussie-NZ stuff here. I can ask for some.
Reply:Here's kind of an example of what I meant previously...This was obviously the end of a plate, so a lap joint, I guess? Anyway, at the right hand side you can see how the weld hasn't filled the gap. Is this because I'm moving too quick, or not enough amps, or both?Thanks
Reply:Amps could be a bit higher, but your big issue is you out ran the puddle at the end. 6013 has a heavy slag and it tends to fool people into believing they have put down material when all it is is the slag.Are you doing any motion at all? One way to help eliminate this issue and force people to slow down some is to do a circular or C shaped motion moving the puddle between the upper and lower pieces. Welding is all about reading the puddle. With stick, you have to be able to tell what is the puddle and what is the slag. In the beginning this can often fool people into believing they put down metal when they have not..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWAmps could be a bit higher, but your big issue is you out ran the puddle at the end. 6013 has a heavy slag and it tends to fool people into believing they have put down material when all it is is the slag.Are you doing any motion at all? One way to help eliminate this issue and force people to slow down some is to do a circular or C shaped motion moving the puddle between the upper and lower pieces. Welding is all about reading the puddle. With stick, you have to be able to tell what is the puddle and what is the slag. In the beginning this can often fool people into believing they put down metal when they have not.
Reply:Can I ask.....When professional welders are on a job, say welding a load of fillets all day...what is your error rate? I'm guessing it's tiny, but how often does a run go wrong, is it something you expect from time to time, and how do you deal with it?Do you grind out just the bad patch, or the whole run? Or can you fill a mistake without degrading the weld? I suppose it depends on the fault...This probably sounds like a stupid question, but I'm just trying to grasp how you guys deal with problems.Thanks
Reply:I'm a hobbiest. When I make mistakes I grind out the slag and weld it again. Filling doesn't work. E.g. that last picture, you could try and pick out the slag and then crank up the amps and fill the hole but it wouldn't be as good as if you ground it out. For picking out slag I use a combination of tools - my scribe, old rod stubs and best of all a hacksaw blade.For fillets with wandering arc, I go up about 10-15% compared to butts or outside corners. Getting the angle correct is more critical with fillets I find. I do most of my welding with 6012 and 6013 here in Oz. Kobe RB-26 and Gemini 12 seem to be the rods I've used the most of recently.
Reply:once you get the hang of it, it's very very uncommon, but as we're all human we all make mistakes, when it does happen, grind out the problem part of the weld with an angle or die grinder and re-weld, with a cold over-roll like you have above, there is no chance i would attempt to simply weld over it, as you then have a slag inclusion.
Reply:Thanx ttoks. I'm going to call my ESAB guy in a little while(2 AM here). I like to try anything and everything just to know what people are talking about.Bubble gumTooth pixDuct tapeBlack glueGBMF hammerScrew gun --bad battery (see above)
Reply:Originally Posted by metaljongI'm a hobbiest. When I make mistakes I grind out the slag and weld it again. Filling doesn't work. E.g. that last picture, you could try and pick out the slag and then crank up the amps and fill the hole but it wouldn't be as good as if you ground it out. For picking out slag I use a combination of tools - my scribe, old rod stubs and best of all a hacksaw blade.For fillets with wandering arc, I go up about 10-15% compared to butts or outside corners. Getting the angle correct is more critical with fillets I find. I do most of my welding with 6012 and 6013 here in Oz. Kobe RB-26 and Gemini 12 seem to be the rods I've used the most of recently.
Reply:Originally Posted by ttoksonce you get the hang of it, it's very very uncommon, but as we're all human we all make mistakes, when it does happen, grind out the problem part of the weld with an angle or die grinder and re-weld, with a cold over-roll like you have above, there is no chance i would attempt to simply weld over it, as you then have a slag inclusion.
Reply:Originally Posted by LittleRestraintThanks for that So, is it fair to say that the main concern is a slag inclusion? And if I can get all traces of slag out of the patch then I could technically just re-weld the area in question? (assuming the rest of the weld was good of course).
Reply:Originally Posted by metaljongWell yes, that's what I do (with the proviso that I'm a hobbiest). That's why I love metalwork - if you make a mistake it's generally recoverable.Generally I do get slag inclusions occasionally and it's almost every time due to me not paying attention to the angles I'm working with. I'm good with arc lengths, travel speeds, etc. But if it's an out of position part, or involves fast direction changes, that's going to increase the chances of a mistake. Generally I get more slag inclusions when I'm (a) not using enough amps or (b) the angle gets wrong and I end up pushing slag into the weld (direction changes or gravity interfering). E.g. doing things like going around an inside corner that turns 90 degrees is a recipe for failure. Or trying to weld too much of a coped pipe butt joint and the weld outruns your hand speed.The more time you spend, the easier it becomes. You'll work out what works and what doesn't, as long as each time you make a mistake you ask yourself "why?". To maximise success, try to always position flat if possible and think in advance of what might go wrong and anticipate. Also, if you're designing things don't make it too hard on yourself. A rod/holder takes up a lot of space and needs room to move. Tight spots are difficult and you need to do tricky things like bend rods or put the rod in straight or use rod stubs and short runs.
Reply:I kinda had a breakthrough,  but want to check that my method is legit, or whether I'm a fraud So I tried a couple more fillets with the same results. Even tired a bit more power and slight weaving, but for whatever reason I couldn't get any consistency. Not sure if the fact I'm using thick scrap is something to do with it? It's probably anywhere from 5-8mm thick, and I only have 2.5mm rods....Anyway, I tried dragging (is that the right term?) The rod along the corner where the two plates meet. My amps were maybe a little high, and the rod burnt fairly quickly, but the result was a tidy looking, even bead!I've heard people talking about dragging your rod before, but from what seen I thought was only for thinner rods, like 2mm or below?I'll add a photo later, but i just wondered - have I cheated? Or am I doing the right thing? I'm guessing it's whatever works, but I don't want to skip the fundamentals in favour of taking the easy out.....Thanks
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWKeep in mind most small inverters do not run 6010's well, especially in whip and pause. That's usually one of the big separators between lower priced units and upper end inverters as far as whether they are designed to run 6010 well.In many cases smaller units do a fair to OK job as long as you maintain a consistent arc length with 6010. However they are not optimized for when the arc length changes rapidly like when doing whip and pause. Some units though won't run 6010 well at all. 6011 is usually recommended as a better choice for small inverters even though 6010 is a DC rated rod. Miller used to have a good explanation on their site that explained why the Maxstar 150 doesn't run 6010 as well as the Maxstar 200's do. It comes down to the compromises Miller made with the 150's to keep the unit small, light weight as well as keep the price down.
Reply:My little inverter struggled to maintain an arc with the 6010, tried EP and EN.
Reply:Shortfuse, thanks. That is the quote I did here on that subject. You can drag just about any size rod  with most 7018's if the amps are correct. However you will end up having issues when welding  in positions other than flat, possibly horizontal fillet when dragging. Some times you need a bit of manipulation to control the puddle and wash in the toes when  doing other positions, especially vertical. The nice thing is right now while learning dragging the rod allows a new student to get things perfect and make nice beads. By doing this it allows them to build up the necessary reference information that will allow them to read the puddle. If you see the "correct" bead often enough, you will eventually begin to pick up on the tiny things that separate a good bead from a bad one  while welding. You will also begin to put what you do with your hands together with what you see with your eyes. I like to refer to those moments when your brain finally makes the connection between what it understands and what it sees as an "Ah Ha!" moment when things finally click and it all begins to make sense.Eventually when you learn to read the puddle how you manipulate the rod will be based on what you see the puddle doing vs just an arbitrary movement..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Brilliant, thanks buddy
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWShortfuse, thanks. That is the quote I did here on that subject.